4"CCVM build thoughts

[Getsmokin]

I am looking to put together a 4" ccvm for running neutrals and such. I am trying to decide how tall the packed section needs to be and if 4" would cause any issues? You may ask why 4", I have a condenser and boiler setup for it already.

[bluefish_dist]

Make it as tall as your space allows. The taller you make it the faster you can run and produce a more pure product. At a minimum I would run 4'.

[Getsmokin]

This is what I have put together so far (- the other 4 ft of column). Anyone see any future issues so far?
Anybody running a ccvm, run their condensers in series?[img]https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201810 ... ea99ab.jpg[/img]

[Yummyrum]

Sorry that picture link isn’t working .

I use 1 meter ( just under 4’ )of scoria rock on my 4” packed section . It works very well on a stripped wash . Like bluefish says though , if you can go higher then do it .

With 1meter , I’m easily pulling over 3 liters an hour at around 95.5% ABV
Its no Azeo but it’s clean enough for what I want

[Getsmokin]

This is what I have put together so far (- the other 4 ft of column). Anyone see any future issues so far?
Anybody running a ccvm, run their condensers in series?

[kimbodious]

yeah I run my condensers in series
I reckon you’ll need a bit more above the tee for the RC coil than just the reducer. I have a 12” spool section above the tee on my CCVM

[Getsmokin]

yeah I run my condensers in series
I reckon you’ll need a bit more above the tee for the RC coil than just the reducer. I have a 12” spool section above the tee on my CCVM

My RC will clear the top of the TO opening by an inch or so. Do you think it would need more than that?
I have ran a cleaning run already, seem to work ok. Though with the TO wide open, I'm not sure what the output should be (wasn't a ton of ethanol in cleaning run).

[kimbodious]

If your RC can knock down all the vapour then you’ll be fine

[Getsmokin]

Rather than start another thread, I'll just put it here.
CCVM SPIRIT RUN on this setup

So I finally found enough time to do a real for keeps spirit run on the ccvm above.
Wash = 9g low wines shady sugar wash
13g boiler fully insulated
4" x 6ft stainless mesh packed column
5500w 240v element

My issues
There is a bitterness on the side of the tongue from start to finish of collection. The heads seem to be pretty much all in the first qt and the flavor of the whole run is relatively clean (the tails flavor does slowly creep in the last 1/2). What can I be doing to get this bitterness?
What direction should the rc coolant flow be for a ccvm? Could flow direction effect some tails bitterness bleeding in early?
I ran the heads out at 18a and bumped up to 20a for the rest of the run. Is this to much power?

[still_stirrin]

Rather than start another thread, I'll just put it here.
CCVM SPIRIT RUN on this setup

So I finally found enough time to do a real for keeps spirit run on the ccvm above.
Wash = 9g low wines shady sugar wash <— zzzzzaaaap! Without copper, it’s gonna’ rattle your teeth.
13g boiler fully insulated
4" x 6ft stainless mesh packed column <— it doesn’t look like a 6ft column...more like 30-36”. Also, you got NO copper in it??? All I see is stainless steel: boiler, column,reflux head, and product condenser. Copper will help you with that “bite”.
5500w 240v element

My issues
There is a bitterness on the side of the tongue from start to finish of collection. The heads seem to be pretty much all in the first qt and the flavor of the whole run is relatively clean (the tails flavor does slowly creep in the last 1/2). What can I be doing to get this bitterness? <— uhhhh...change your recipe? Add copper??
What direction should the rc coolant flow be for a ccvm? <— uhhh...counter clockwise? Actually, with the twisted csst, flow direction is not an issue.
Could flow direction effect some tails bitterness bleeding in early? <— I think you’re pushing it too hard, or rather...not enough reflux. If its smearing, you’re not getting the separation a VM is capable of.
I ran the heads out at 18a and bumped up to 20a for the rest of the run. Is this to much power? <— probably not...for a 4” column. How fast does it produce?

[Getsmokin]

Rather than start another thread, I'll just put it here.
CCVM SPIRIT RUN on this setup

So I finally found enough time to do a real for keeps spirit run on the ccvm above.
Wash = 9g low wines shady sugar wash <— zzzzzaaaap! Without copper, it’s gonna’ rattle your teeth.
13g boiler fully insulated
4" x 6ft stainless mesh packed column <— it doesn’t look like a 6ft column...more like 30-36”. Also, you got NO copper in it??? All I see is stainless steel: boiler, column,reflux head, and product condenser. Copper will help you with that “bite”.
5500w 240v element

My issues
There is a bitterness on the side of the tongue from start to finish of collection. The heads seem to be pretty much all in the first qt and the flavor of the whole run is relatively clean (the tails flavor does slowly creep in the last 1/2). What can I be doing to get this bitterness? <— uhhhh...change your recipe? Add copper??
What direction should the rc coolant flow be for a ccvm? <— uhhh...counter clockwise? Actually, with the twisted csst, flow direction is not an issue.
Could flow direction effect some tails bitterness bleeding in early? <— I think you’re pushing it too hard, or rather...not enough reflux. If its smearing, you’re not getting the separation a VM is capable of.
I ran the heads out at 18a and bumped up to 20a for the rest of the run. Is this to much power? <— probably not...for a 4” column. How fast does it produce?

The strips was done with several rolls of copper mesh and I forgot to mention there are a couple rolls of copper in with the stainless.

So with copper do you still feel it's a recipe issue? It's really just the light bitter sensation on the palate of the tails but no tails flavor.

If you read above there's another 4ft section. To make 6ft +the tee

Have my ccst wound in a coil. Similar to how a copper coil would be.

I wondered if I was pushing to hard, but by all calculations it should have been in range.

"More reflux" was on my list of things to try next time.

Think I pulled the heads at 1pt - 1.5pt hr and the rest at 3ish at 93-94%

So more reflux most likely

Thanks for the direction.
If I had more time, I would just repeat until I figured it out. Unfortunately finding time to run it at all is a real challenge anymore.

[Getsmokin]

How did the title get changed on a 6 month old thread? Was correct yesterday morning.

[OtisT]

The only way I know if I’m getting separation is by head temp. I think in a CCVM the temp location would be just below the RC at its lowest position. I may be doing it wrong, so someone correct me if I’m off so I can learn.

Too much power creates too much turbulence and won’t allow alcohols to separate. The more packing height you have, the more forgiving power can be and it’s a bit easier to find the sweet spot on power/reflux.

When you fraction/separate alcohol the head temp decreases when heads move to the top of the column, so I tune a fractioning column by head temp. If you are starting at 172.x, you are not fractioning. Purifying yes, separating no. Here is a summary of my process. After quibrilibrium is achieved and head temp is 172.x, detuned reflux to just before loosing vapor. Then lower power in slow increments, giving column time to react, until the head temp first starts to decrease. This is when you know separation is beginning to taking place. (I detuned RC a bit here.). Keep lowering power until you are at your target Heads temp. (I usually detuned the RC again here). Next begin drawing off product and watch the temp. If you pull product at too fast a rate, head temp will rise a bit. Do a bit more tuning of product rate, reflux, and power to find a balance of acceptable production rate/temp.

Otis

[kimbodious]

gday CCVM brother

I’d say the bitterness is from heads being smeared through the run. Why not dilute your product and run it again, but bring the heat up a lot more slowly, in such quick succession it would be great practice although this time it would be a spirit run. I have done exactly that for exactly the same reason. Be aware the the boiling point for the low wines will be lower than for the wash.

The only place to put a thermometer is in the arm of the offtake away from the shower of condensate off the RC. I had a thermometer in the offtake on my CCVM but it changed more by drafts and breezes than it did through operation of the still. I thought it was an unneccessary distraction and no longer use one. On the other hand I find the sightglass below the offtake to be very helpful and reassuring for operating my CCVM.

The only copper on my stills is ysed for the spout after the PC. Copper is good for reducing sulphates in the final spirit if your washes were high in sulfur compounds.

[OtisT]

Seems like this was a direct response to my previous post so while I respect your knowledge and opinion, I beg to differ or comment on a few specific points you made.

I’d say the bitterness is from heads being smeared through the run.

Smearing in most cases would be because he was not separating(fractioning) properly, and like you said this is likely from too much heat. A bad taste through an entire run could be from some other reason, and ruling out separation would be a big help in finding the problem. A thermometer is needed to know if a still is separating properly.

A case for a thermometer.

A thermometer above the packing tells when you get separation so adjustments can be made preventing a person from needing to re-run a batch. My spirit runs take all day and that’s a lot to have to do over again. Yes, he could learn how to do this over a long time and with a lot of trial and error, but why? He has a VM, so learn to drive it like one.

A thermometer also tells you when your column is in equilibrium and how long adjustments to heat/reflux/takeoff rate can take to propagate up the column and if those changes impacted your separation.

I was really suprised myself when I learned how low power needed to be in my rigs to get good separation. Also supprised by the difference in propagation time between packing types.

Just saying to a noob turn the power down a bit and try again may work this time, but it sure don’t teach him much about why he got the results he did or how/why he may want to make adjustments next time something don’t turn out right. Next time it could be packing, or cooling, or..... (Teaching him to fish with a thermometer so he don’t need to lean on us when something changes.)

The only place to put a thermometer is in the arm of the offtake away from the shower of condensate off the RC.

Nonsense! A thermometer sensor can be offset or shielded to keep liquid reflux off of it. I’ve run successfully with both types in a VM.

I had a thermometer in the offtake on my CCVM but it changed more by drafts and breezes than it did through operation of the still.

You seriously need some insulation on that column. A column needs consistent temps to fraction properly and prevent smearing. A half degree F is something you should make note of in my experience.

I thought it was an unneccessary distraction and no longer use one.

Possibly because you already know your system and also a lot about distilling, and found settings that work well enough for what you want to make and how your gonna cut it.

A noob to fractioning can’t easily or quickly learn how to run a VM w/o proper data input. Purity is not separation, so he can’t tell by ABV. A good knowledge of cuts, patience, and a lot of trial and error runs would be needed to find the settings he needs to run at w/o the use of a thermometer. He could probably get away with running way under power and get separation, but then he is likely loosing the potential to achieve a good production rate.

Just my opinion and I reserve the right to be wrong, but you will need to tell me how a noob can successfully run things in a VM w/o a thermometer before I’ll admit it. I hope I don’t come off sounding like a dick cause it’s not my intent. Just trying to help a fractioning noob build a proper fractioning column.

Otis

[kimbodious]

no offence taken.

Piece of cake running a CCVM compared with when I ran a CM and later still with a VM. I agree that a thermometer is very useful tool with CM and VM. I don’t use a thermometer because I have a sight glass for monitoring the column.

How I run my CCVM on spirit runs.
RC in the lowest position. Bring up heat slowly. Turn on water to RC when I feel the heat slowly rising up the column. Watch the sightglass fog when the vapour reaches it ; about 100 minutes after power on. I observe that condensate is falling and check there are no drips from the output - the system is then in total reflux. Be ready to reduce power if I observe the level of condensate rise up the sightglass otherwise leave everything as it is for twenty minutes.

Then I raise the RC about 3/4” (I have this marked) to let some vapour across to the offtake and check that I am getting no more than two drops per second and collect about 150 mls of foreshots. I then switch to regular jars at the same two drips per second collect in 300 ml samples until I have nearly finished the 4th jar (1200 mls). That is the heads section done. I will still check the jars when making cuts but 1200 mls seems to always pull it up. I achieve excellent fractioning of the volatiles

I raise the RC a further 3.25” (I have this marked) and collect the rest of the run from an unfaltering pencil lead sized stream approximately 1.5 litres per hour on a 2” 4’ packed column. I have to marginally increase power towards the end of the run otherwise it is “set and forget” I run the column low and slow this way because I have found if I push it harder than an indicated 1550W (on a 240VAC powered 2200W element) that the condensate cannot return to the boiler fast enough and the offtake gets flooded. I watch the sightglass to check the condensate level and reduce the power if I observe the level to start rising.

I know I’ve reached tails when the sightglass fogs and the output suddenly drops. I shut everything down because. I do not want tails through my packing

Two days airing and I make the cuts and do the blending. I do not measure ABV anytime during the run but do measure the final blend which is usually a temperature-corrected 95% ABV

I hope this info is of some use for GetSmokin

Although I live in the tropics you’ll see my column is insulated right up to the sightglass. The temperature changes you watch for with VM and CCVM are +/- 1 degree Celsius. The thermometer would vary by that much just from breezes.

Things to check for (assuming you have adequate water flow through the condensers)
vapour initially rushing up the column - back off the power and leave the column in total reflux a little bit longer than usual
liquid emitting from the top of the column - back off the power immediately
faster than expected output with lower than expected ABV - back off power slightly until flooding eases

I hinted that I had bitter product from my first CCVM run. I was excited abiut achieving an impressive 3 litres per hour of output at a temp-corrected 92% ABV and ended up with 16 litres of bitter foul product. Lesson gained I read up and checked what rate of output I should be aiming for with a 2” column (thanks YummyRum) and re-ran the product.

All good

[bluefish_dist]

I too run by watching temperature. But the changes I look for when running a neutral is .1 or .2 F. A thermometer that only has resolution of 1f is not nearly accurate enough. I have even been burned by a front coming in and the boiling point decreasing, but I didn’t realize it was happening during a 12 hr run.

I would place the thermometer above the packing and below the rc with a splash guard. While this makes the build more complicated it allows you to know the temperature before you raise the condenser. If using a valve style vm it’s easy to place the thermometer in the takeoff arm as it always has hot vapor present.

[kimbodious]

I should have explained that over the years I have adjusted the mass and tightness of the SS potscrubber packing in my column so that I am getting optimum levels of reflux at a reasonable power level /output rate. I checked that by measuring ABV during the run. It was an important consideration when setting up but once I found my optimum it is no longer a major factor.

I leave the packing in place but give the packed section a thorough hosing from the top after each run.

While I am confident I have sufficient packing for optimum level of reflux to occur, all I then have to watch for in the sightglass is that the level of condensate is not rising. When I can maintain a constant level of condensate as seen in the sightglass then I know I have reached a balance point between vapour flow and rate at which the condensate can drain away with faith that I am achieving optimum reflux.

[Getsmokin]

I thank everyone for the input on how to drive this thing. I am going to build a bit bigger RC and give it another go, when I can find the time.

[The Booze Pipe]

I'm thinking about building a 4" CCVM my self. The four inch size doesn't seem to be as popular as three inch, is there a specific reason why? Also, is it still critical to maintain that equal sized take off as the the column diameter, e.g. 2x2x2 tee vs a 4x4x4 tee? Or could I use a 4x4x2 tee?

[OtisT]

I'm thinking about building a 4" CCVM my self. The four inch size doesn't seem to be as popular as three inch, is there a specific reason why? Also, is it still critical to maintain that equal sized take off as the the column diameter, e.g. 2x2x2 T vs a 4x4x4 T? Or could I use a 4x4x2 T?

I believe that a larger diameter requires more power to drive properly, and a taller column to get the same level of fractioning. I think height is the main issue preventing most from using larger diameters. Packing type requirements also change as the diameter increases from 3 to 4”. That’s my understanding anyway. I’ve only run 2” and 3” columns. Otis

[The Booze Pipe]

I have ceiling height restrictions, so a 4" x 42" column packed with copper mesh is what I was planning on.

[Getsmokin]

I finally got a chance to do a couple runs. While some progress was made, I still don't get the separation I am expecting. I did figure out that one of my spools seems to be leaching something out. After 3 or 4 cycles of cleaning it and having a film on the inside, so I removed it and that flavor went away. So now I'm back to trying to get better separation (tails mostly). I'm starting to think my ss mesh packing my be far from optimal as I can't seem to find a setting for good separation and anything higher than 91%.

[Getsmokin]

So after tons of great advice and even more equipment mods (including squeezing another ft of packing in), then even more failed test runs.. My belief is that 4in x 7ft packed is not tall enough for adiquit separation at any speed. While able to make 95% + I was not able to get good purity.

[acfixer69]

It has been years since running a totally packed column so keep that in mined as you read this. To my thoughts it seems to appear you are smearing the whole run. If you stabilize the column with a too cold reflux condenser you may be sub cooling the condensed vapor and cause it to drop too far down the column before it vaporizes again. This can and will cause channeling and smearing in a 4" column.

[Getsmokin]

It has been years since running a totally packed column so keep that in mined as you read this. To my thoughts it seems to appear you are smearing the whole run. If you stabilize the column with a too cold reflux condenser you may be sub cooling the condensed vapor and cause it to drop too far down the column before it vaporizes again. This can and will cause channeling and smearing in a 4" column.

I'm listening.. while I feel like I am getting good heads separation, most definitely not get good tails separation. I run my rc temps at 110-120f. Something I have noticed was when bleeding off the heads, as soon as the heads really start fading fast a bitterness starts appearing right away.

[Getsmokin]

I have also considered an issue with my RC design/ shape (it's a copper double helix), but have tried csst in the past.

[kimbodious]

Is there anyway that you can put a sightglass at the top of your packed column immediately below the offtake? This way you can monitor for condensate building up on top of the packed section, a precursor to flooding. If you start getting condensate splashed across in through the offtake (flooding) you will get higher rates of output of warmer and less pure product.

My 2” CCVM was a bugger for flooding until I reduced the amount of packing in the 1200mm column. Now I find I don’t get get enough reflux with the RC in the highest position so I run the still in the hearts section with the RC lowered slightly. This results in a lower rate of output which I have compensated for by sending slightly more power to the boiler. It is a balancing act made much easier by having a sightglass to monitor for build up of condensate.

If you can put your system in total reflux your RC is good to go leaving you just to adjust the position it is in. Sub cooling the vapour that acfixer69 mentions is a thing. You should be able to feel from the outside of the column where the cold zone starts. It should only be at or slightly below the offtake during total reflux.

You are correct to focus on the product. Experiment and observe what changes in rate of output and purity do you get with different positions of the RC. Likewise with what changes in rate of output and purity do you get with different levels of power to the boiler.

My guess? Flooding, either packing too tight or too much vapour being pushed up the column or most likely a combination of both. A quick way to check is to investigate different power settings to see where you start getting reduced purity. If at that setting the rate of output is too low then you’ll need to think about adjusting the packing.

The beauty of testing a system running neutrals is that you can always re-run the product!

[Getsmokin]

Doesn't appear to be flooding (sight glass top of packing) , even after going back and readjusting and adding more packing. Have cranked up to 5500w just to see if I can make it flood.

[bluefish_dist]

4” shouldn’t flood at 5500w. That’s my normal operating power.