Column Performance

Vapor, Liquid or Cooling Management. Flutes, plates, etc.

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TunaSquat
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Column Performance

Post by TunaSquat »

My column is a 4" SS CCVM on top of a 20 gallon copper pot with about 36" of marble packing. I've made two runs of 10% WPOW. I've done a lot of reading about marbles and aquatic environments and I seen many people claim marbles far outperform the site's calculator estimate with the caveat that the column has to be pushed hard. My last run I pulled off alcohol in the range of 91-93% (temperature corrected). That run was at a full 5500w, but I'm wondering if that's enough power to create that unique column flooding environment that takes advantage of the marbles. What do you guys think? I was shooting for azeo but adding additional packing is a no go. I'm pretty worried about the weight on my pot already.
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Yummyrum
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Re: Column Performance

Post by Yummyrum »

I’ve not tried marbles so I don’t know .
I use scoria rock about 5-10mm pieces .... it's cheap and plentiful .... Also I use the same length and 4” as you .
I get 95-95.5% ABV at around 2- 2.5 liters /Hour
I can’t give you a exact power rating as I run gas but I estimate it’s around 7-8Kw equivalent power
Thats about as much power as I can throw at it before it floods . At this point I have as much refluxing going on as possible .
I could collect at a higher ABV by collecting at a slower rate but I’m happy were I’m at flavour wise

But I do strip first .

Are you running straight wash or combined strip ? Running stripped wash will make a huge improvement .
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still_stirrin
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Re: Column Performance

Post by still_stirrin »

I use marbles in the insulated column of my CM/VM stillhead. But it’s 2” x 1 meter tall, roughly 20 diameters, which I read is optimal for azeotropic production. So, I can run it at about 2kW. But indeed, scoria (lava rock) is more efficient than glass marbles because of the surface area and surface roughness. With my setup, I can pull azeo at about 1-1/2 to 2 liters per hour.

The thing to realize is that with a larger diameter column you can push more power resulting in a higher throughput. But the type and height of packing will affect the efficiency of separation (purity of product). So, 91-92%ABV may be the best you can do without more height or better packing.
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bluefish_dist
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Re: Column Performance

Post by bluefish_dist »

5500w won’t get you to flooding on a 4”. More power is needed to really push the marbles. I was never successful in getting great performance from spp or marbles with more power. I usually got best performance around 20 FPS or less vapor speed. For a 4” that’s around 5500w.

I found that marbles were more than 4”, probably closer to 5” hetp, thus 36” won’t get to azeo. 36/5= 7 plates. You probably need closer to 6-8’ to truly hit azeo.
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TunaSquat
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Re: Column Performance

Post by TunaSquat »

Yummyrum wrote:Are you running straight wash or combined strip ? Running stripped wash will make a huge improvement .
I do run straight wash. I will try to strip first and see where I'm at. I was just hoping to save some time. Slowing down my collection is probably a good idea as well. I've been collecting at around a gallon/hr.
TunaSquat
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Re: Column Performance

Post by TunaSquat »

still_stirrin wrote:I use marbles in the insulated column of my CM/VM stillhead.
ss
Yes, I've seen some of your old posts about using marbles. Part of the reason I tried them first was because of you mentioning your good results combined with the ease of cleaning. As far as the column height, there are several old threads that talk about how the height to diameter ratio is actually overstated, and that how ultimately, it is only height and packing that matter. This is certainly born out in the calculators here, where an increase in diameter only increases output if all other parameters remain unchanged.
TunaSquat
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Re: Column Performance

Post by TunaSquat »

bluefish_dist wrote:5500w won’t get you to flooding on a 4”. More power is needed to really push the marbles. I was never successful in getting great performance from spp or marbles with more power. I usually got best performance around 20 FPS or less vapor speed. For a 4” that’s around 5500w.

I found that marbles were more than 4”, probably closer to 5” hetp, thus 36” won’t get to azeo. 36/5= 7 plates. You probably need closer to 6-8’ to truly hit azeo.
I did see your previous posts where you compared the different packings. I also saw Rad and others speak of the great results if running the marbles partially flooded, but as you mentioned, I don't have enough power for that. With weight being an issue anyway, I guess I should give lava rock or scribbles a try. I just wanted packing with easier maintenance.

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bluefish_dist
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Re: Column Performance

Post by bluefish_dist »

I had great luck with scrubbies in 4”. My final setup was 8’ of scrubbies over a 6” bubble plate. Running low wines I could get 1.5 gal/ hr at the start of the run at 190+. Really ran well. I was finally able to get the same setup to run in 6” as well, but it took careful packing to make it work. I originally started with 6’ of packing which worked, but the 8’ was faster. Being commercial speed was important.

I do have a short packed column with marbles that I am going to use for flavored products. Easy to clean and adjust the number of plate equivalents by the height of the packing. So they do have their place, but when considering cost and weight vs scrubbies I would use scrubbies for a neutral.
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Bushman
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Re: Column Performance

Post by Bushman »

You might want to look at Calculations for a Reflux Stills and Calculate the HETP this should help show any differences between structural packing materials.

Another great thread on the subject.
Let’s talk column packing
hpby98
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Re: Column Performance

Post by hpby98 »

I’d recommend larval pebbles - 1/4 to 1/2 “ work great in my 2”. You could go larger in your 4”

The surface area compared to marbles will be magnitudes larger

Got me from 92 to 95+%
TunaSquat
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Re: Column Performance

Post by TunaSquat »

hpby98 wrote:I’d recommend larval pebbles - 1/4 to 1/2 “ work great in my 2”. You could go larger in your 4”

The surface area compared to marbles will be magnitudes larger

Got me from 92 to 95+%
I will look into that. I'm a little concerned the smaller size would add additional weight but the larger size ones may be an option.
TunaSquat
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Re: Column Performance

Post by TunaSquat »

bluefish_dist wrote:I had great luck with scrubbies in 4”. My final setup was 8’ of scrubbies over a 6” bubble plate.
How did you clean that large mass of scrubbies?
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bluefish_dist
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Re: Column Performance

Post by bluefish_dist »

I would simply rinse them with hot water. They stayed fairly clean as I only ran low wines. They would stink of tails, but the next run would clean that out.
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Setsumi
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Re: Column Performance

Post by Setsumi »

TunaSquat wrote:My column is a 4" SS CCVM on top of a 20 gallon copper pot with about 36" of marble packing. I've made two runs of 10% WPOW. I've done a lot of reading about marbles and aquatic environments and I seen many people claim marbles far outperform the site's calculator estimate with the caveat that the column has to be pushed hard. My last run I pulled off alcohol in the range of 91-93% (temperature corrected). That run was at a full 5500w, but I'm wondering if that's enough power to create that unique column flooding environment that takes advantage of the marbles. What do you guys think? I was shooting for azeo but adding additional packing is a no go. I'm pretty worried about the weight on my pot already.
You talk of aquatic environment, yes a lot of theads mention it. I used a 3" CCVM for a time and have not seen it. The reason is that although I think it is proper dimensioned I would get blow by, product at high vapour speed. The first thought was inefficient condenser then not enough space between packing and condenser, but for me a bit slower worked well enough to compress the heads. For me scrubers or lava rocks is better than marbles cause of the weight. But now I play with plates...

Edit to add, it is quite easy to see azo with a standerd 0 - 100% alcohol meter, but more difficult with a calibrated 90-100%...
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