4 plate flute plans and build

[30xs]

I don’t want to be out too far, but what is considered too close? The largest return bend I have found is about 6 1/4” on centers. Once it gets past the 4” column that only leaves 3” of clearance to the PC. I figured a return bend wouldn’t have any place to pool/smear, but I get more room on the elbows. I don’t think I’ve ever seen a minimum recommended distance in all the reading I’ve done.

[acfixer69]

I don’t want to be out too far, but what is considered too close? The largest return bend I have found is about 6 1/4” on centers. Once it gets past the 4” column that only leaves 3” of clearance to the PC. I figured a return bend wouldn’t have any place to pool/smear, but I get more room on the elbows. I don’t think I’ve ever seen a minimum recommended distance in all the reading I’ve done.

I don't see where you are going with this bring it out to where you want it to be.

[30xs]

I don’t want to be out too far, but what is considered too close? The largest return bend I have found is about 6 1/4” on centers. Once it gets past the 4” column that only leaves 3” of clearance to the PC. I figured a return bend wouldn’t have any place to pool/smear, but I get more room on the elbows. I don’t think I’ve ever seen a minimum recommended distance in all the reading I’ve done.

I don't see where you are going with this bring it out to where you want it to be.

I am asking what minimum distance from column to PC should be? If I can get away with 3” I’ll use a return bend, otherwise if that is going to be too close I’ll pick up some elbows.

[acfixer69]

What I'm saying is if 3" is what you want do it there is no rule most want it away from the boiler.

[30xs]

Thanks you. I heat electric and was planning on making a collection platform for the top of the keg.

[acfixer69]

Thanks you. I heat electric and was planning on making a collection platform for the top of the keg.

I'm going to say this because it pisses me off when you could have said this is what I want to do is it good. is ?

[30xs]

Thanks you. I heat electric and was planning on making a collection platform for the top of the keg.

I'm going to say this because it pisses me off when you could have said this is what I want to do is it good. is ?

I apologize for the confusion, and pissing you off. I thought the post at the top of this page did do that? I had stated the size of the return bend I had found and asked hat the minimum distance I should be from the column with my product condenser. Perhaps overly worded, but that is what I was asking. I will try to word my questions a little better from here out. I’ll try it now. You stated that you built you dephleg with 5 tubes and would go smaller if you were to do it again. Wouldn’t making it seven tubes essentially make it smaller ( at the same height)? It would reduce the water amount and create more vapor contact through the deplhleg, both causing the water to warm up faster resulting in a quicker response to water adjustments. Would my 4 1/2” seven 3/4” tubes be sufficient while still maintaining a lower water consumption?

[acfixer69]

Thanks you. I heat electric and was planning on making a collection platform for the top of the keg.

I'm going to say this because it pisses me off when you could have said this is what I want to do is it good. is ?

I apologize for the confusion, and pissing you off. I thought the post at the top of this page did do that? I had stated the size of the return bend I had found and asked hat the minimum distance I should be from the column with my product condenser. Perhaps overly worded, but that is what I was asking. I will try to word my questions a little better from here out. I’ll try it now. You stated that you built you dephleg with 5 tubes and would go smaller if you were to do it again. Wouldn’t making it seven tubes essentially make it smaller ( at the same height)? It would reduce the water amount and create more vapor contact through the deplhleg, both causing the water to warm up faster resulting in a quicker response to water adjustments. Would my 4 1/2” seven 3/4” tubes be sufficient while still maintaining a lower water consumption?

With 7 tubes you do have more surface contact and less water volume but the vapor speed may out run the dwell time needed to condense and smear.
I use pissed off alot not angry, confused and annoyed, maybe with myself. No worries all is well.

[Yummyrum]

I here you on your Deflag query . My take on after having 7 x 3/4” tubes in a 90mm long shell is its not enough .

I worked out my available vapour area through those tubes was only 20% of the column area. ..... so the vapour speed was caused to speed up 5x .

My deflag was a poor design . It barely copes with the power I give it .It does the job but not well .

Yes I would say add as many tubes as you can . The more tubes , the lower the vapour speed , therefore the longer the dwell time , so ... the shorter it need to be , the less water , the quicker the response time .

But I’m also liking Shadys coiled deflag more and more .

Edit posted same time as AC ... looks like we on similar page regarding dwell time with 7 tubes

[acfixer69]

Same page on most all things distilling Yummy even the clusterfu$$ of our build space. I know where it all is. I right over there, on the floor.

[30xs]

I think I have 1” M as well, but think it would be a little tight in the soldering department. I have limited experience soldering. I understand more smaller pipes could possibly cause an increased speed, depending on how many, but could offer more contact area if area is equal.

Edited: My calculations on a seven tube puts me at an area of ~3.08. The two in it feeds into afterwards would be just shy of 3.14. Even the 3.08 is only 25% of the column diameter, but the perf plates eat up quite a bit of area? I know the vapors blowing through the plates would have to be excessive speeds to even keep up with what is normally acceptable in the two inch after the reducer, unless I severely screwed up the area calculations. I know the short section of 4” after the dephleg would cause a slow down and speed up.

Yummy, was you dephleg lacking due to length, or diameter/vapor speeds? I apologize for all the questions, but I like to try and understand why I’m building something rather than just soldering up something that will not be sufficient.

Edited again: calculations for seven 1” tubes yields 5.53 which is just short of double the 3/4” tubes. I may have to order some extra plate and give that route a try.

[OtisT]

30xs. Below are pics of two possible thermometer mounts for a column. I’m sure there are other ways. These are just the two we discussed. Both are designed for thermometers with 1/2” MNPT threads and a 2.5” probe.

Option 1). Thermometer with probe that does not extend into the column (my preference)

Parts needed are a 1/2” FNPT fitting and a short piece of 1/2” copper pipe. If this is mounted on a single thin wall of copper column, then a 1/2” copper coupling or possibly a copper washer may be desired for added mechanical strength. The picture below (left hand example) uses a copper washer for added mechanical strength of the joint.

Two styles of column thermometer mounts

The process:
A. First shape the washer to match the curve of the column then solder the washer to the column. I cleaned then marred/scratched up both the column and back of the washer to ensure the solder had something to stick to.
B. Drill out a 1/2” hole in the center of the washer. Don’t over size this or over file the hole. You want the pipe to be a tight fit that requires some force to insert it.
C. Figure out how long the pipe section should be. Thread the thermometer into the fitting and insert the pipe into the fitting (dry fit, no soldering yet.). Mark and cut the pipe so that it is 1/2” longer than the probe end. I.e. the probe is recessed 1/2” in the pipe.
D. Sand the pipe ends smooth and clean, then tap just the pipe into the 1/2” hole with a rubber mallet. The pipe should extend about 1/16” into the column around all edges. Just enough that you can see a lip inside all the way around the pipe, but not much further. I like to add a slight tilt up to the pipe, so that any liquid in that 1/2” pipe would flow down into the column. This will prevent liquid pooling. Solder this pipe in place. When soldering, you need the column horizontal and the pipe plumbed straight up. Don’t move things while soldering. When you heat the column for soldering the washer will come loose, and you don’t want it shifting positions before the work cools.
E. Tightly thread the thermometer into the fitting. Dry fit the fitting over the 1/2” pipe and rotate so that the thermometer is positioned where you want it. I like mine with the temp range of 160f to 200f at the top. Mark the fitting so you know which side is up. Remove the thermometer then solder the fitting in place at the desired position. When soldering, heat up just the fitting first and only apply the minimal heat necessary to the pipe after the fitting is up to temp. This will keep your column side solder solid so it won’t shift.

An alternative to the copper washer is to use a section of a coupling fitting. Cut that coupling in half so the piece you keep slips nicely over the pipe section. File/sand one face of the coupling to match up perfectly with the curvature of the external column wall. When soldering the pipe to the column, tap in the pipe, give it that slight tilt I described above, then gently slide that coupling over the pipe down to mate with the column. Then solder it together.

Option 2. Thermometer probe extends into the column and has a drip shield.

Drip shield thermometer port

Close up of drip shield

The process:
A. Drill a 1/2” hole in the column where the thermometer will be placed. Do not over size this or sand/file it too much. Inserting a 1/2” pipe should require some force such that the pipe is held firmly in place.
B. Thread the thermometer tightly into the 1/2” fitting then dry fit the section of 1/2” pipe into the fitting. Cut the pipe to length so that it is 1/2” longer than the probe. Remove the pipe section from the fitting.
C. Mark what will be the “top” side of the fitting, orientated so that the range of your dial thermometer that you want up is on top. Remove the thermometer.
D. Sand/file the pipe facing end of the FNPT fitting to match the curvature of the external column. Make sure you do this knowing the proper orientation of the fitting so the dial is where you want it. (See step C above.)
E. Cut and sand smooth a side section of your 1/2” pipe. (Like the top of a duck’s bill.) This makes the drip shield. Make sure that when you are done, that the section of pipe that will be soldered to the column will be whole. (Don’t make the duck bill too long. For example, If the pipe will extend 1.5 inches into the column, the bill should only be 1.25 inches long.)
F. Insert the pipe into the fitting, then gently tap the duck bill side of the pipe into the column. Make sure the top of the duck bill is in proper drip shield position in the column, and that the “top” end of the fitting is up, for proper dial placement.
G. Solder this all at once: column, pipe, fitting.

I did not include in my directions info about cleaning the copper and using flux, but that is all necessary.

Otis

[30xs]

Thanks for the visual, Otis. Right now I have hit a small snag, possibly. I turned the plates to 3.918”, which just barely fit into the end of my pipe. The pipe looked to be cut with a metal blade in a chop saw, so I didn’t expect any deformation from a cutter. At about a 1” in they loosen up, slightly. They still screech a bit when assembled into a tree setup, but I’m thinking I may be a little looser than I needed to be. I have a small piece that I had found elsewhere and it’s a bit out of round, but is snug to these plates on two sides with a substantial gap on two sides. I’m planning on cutting the 4” I have now with a metal band and see what the I.D. is through what the looser section is. Work is holding up getting to the local shop for a cut to 26” for the four plate section. Both of my pieces were “L” pipe. Inner diameters seemed completely different between the two pieces. Does anyone have a hard number for a plate diameter for use in 4” L pipe. I’m hoping I can salvage two of these plates for use as a dephleg. I did this a couple days ago and I have been trying to search the forum for the optimum size/fit. I was thinking that it may have even been Emptyglass that gave tolerances to the top tight and too loose in a post that I cannot find anywhere. Also, what would be the maximum clearance for soft solder? Maybe these plates won’t be salvageable at all without maybe doing something in 3” at a later date.

[acfixer69]

http://pbar.fnal.gov/organizationalchar ... ndbook.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

This link on pg 20 and on for a few pages will give you the numbers you are looking for. How ever it doesn't take in the bit of out of round copper can and will get. This is why the plate tree style columns are obsolete so to speak and the modular has move ahead. However the perf style plates are not as critical of the blow by but it still has an effect.

[30xs]

http://pbar.fnal.gov/organizationalchar ... ndbook.pdf

This link on pg 20 and on for a few pages will give you the numbers you are looking for. How ever it doesn't take in the bit of out of round copper can and will get. This is why the plate tree style columns are obsolete so to speak and the modular has move ahead. However the perf style plates are not as critical of the blow by but it still has an effect.

Thank you for the link. I had been using the Peterson’s chart https://www.petersenproducts.com/Copper ... s/1979.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow and by both I am into M inner diameter and one is clearly marked L (scrap find piece) and the other was ordered as L. My plates at 3.918 shouldn’t slide through anything except M? I swear I remember someone the poster on one of these builds giving an O.D. of 3.925ish for his piece of L. Either way I have no issues with building a tree, dropping a solder ring on top, and soldering by heating the outside making the tree permanent. I would prefer to be able to pull the tree fo clean, or drop a plate, but is what it is. I have a little Craftsman 109 jewelers lathe. My disks were pretty true. I will try dropping one on the end of the all-thread down into the pipe and see how the clearance looks. I know two thousandths ago I could not even start the plates, but am wondering if the is any end defects that may have been causing me grief.

[30xs]

Here’s an couple images. Maybe it would be tight enough, since it is a perf plate?

The plate at top

The plate at mid point, with a flashlight backlighting to show the gap.

The plate at either position is tight enough to support the weight of the 36” all-thread by itself. I’m thinking I may have answered my own question, but would this be tight enough for a perf plate column? It is the slight bit out of round that is giving me the gaps that I can’t get rid of unless I’d make some sort of swage to drive through to clean it up. Worst case scenario I solder in and have a permanent four plate, I guess. I know others have done that successfully in the past.

[30xs]

I ordered solder, meaning to get Harris Stay-Brite 8, and accidentally ordered just Stay-brite. Is this acceptable solder, or would I be better off returning it for the #8? I’m still a ways from being ready to start soldering, so the time to return it wouldn’t be an issue. I also have templates printed to do the dephleg in seven 1” tubes. Would 4.5” be sufficient for 1” tubes? I don’t know if the extra distance in the opening would allow vapor to pass through due to the wall area being so open?

[acfixer69]

Stay brite is fine, regular plumbing 95/5 works as well. Not understanding the 2nd half of your question "wall opening"

[Setsumi]

regarding your plate fit to wall. Although the saying tighter is better, with a drop in tree you will have gaps. I have found that the tree rod creates torque between plates that messes with fit. a bit of weeping will be tolarable as long as you have enough heat/ power and as long as the difference between plates are not too large.

[Saltbush Bill]

Just a note to keep things clear:

A dephlegmator is a device arranged for the partial condensation of a multicomponent vapor stream. The vapor stream flows vertically upwards and the condensate (condensed vapor) runs back down under the influence of gravity. The vapor stream and condensate thus move counter currently and are in direct contact with each other. In addition to heat transfer between the vapor stream and cooling medium, mass is transferred between the rising vapor and falling condensate. Vapor leaving the device has become concentrated in the more volatile components, while the condensate is richer in the less volatile components. In the industrial rather than laboratory contexts, many writers use the word 'dephlegmator,' only if the device being described is a main unit in the process plant.

Nice post AC
"A dephlegmator is a device arranged for the partial condensation of a multicomponent vapor stream."
More and more I see the words dephlegmator and condenser used in an interchangeable sort of way.
They are different creatures, with different roles to play in distilling, the two words mean different things.
People using the wrong terminologies for the wrong things only serves to confuse, both newbies and experienced distillers alike.

[30xs]

Stay brite is fine, regular plumbing 95/5 works as well. Not understanding the 2nd half of your question "wall opening"

You had stated that the seven 3/4” tubes may allow condensate to pass due to possible vapor speed, and mentioned larger. I wasn’t sure if larger meant length, or tube diameter. The second part was asking if the 1” tube would have a downfall of excess diameter allowing condensate to sneak up the center since it has a farther distance from the wall?

[OtisT]

:
"A dephlegmator is a device arranged for the partial condensation of a multicomponent vapor stream."
More and more I see the words dephlegmator and condenser used in an interchangeable sort of way.
They are different creatures, with different roles to play in distilling, the two words mean different things.
People using the wrong terminologies for the wrong things only serves to confuse, both newbies and experienced distillers alike.

A thought a Dephlegmator is a condenser (of various styles) used in a specific way and a “condenser” is simply a generic term that covers a variety of styles and uses. Examples of condenser styles include shotgun, dimroth, liebig, cold finger, etc. Examples of condenser uses include reflux, product, dephlegmator.

So it should be OK to call a dephlegmator a condenser, unless my understanding is incorrect. Of course, I could believe that folks use the term dephlegmator incorrectly but it is still a condenser.

Otis

[30xs]

Sorry, for clarity I was referring my shotgun dephledmater as a reflux condenser. My shotgun was my product condenser. I’m just trying to sort out what is needed for my reflux condenser now. I’m building it as a shotgun style. Optimum tube size/length recommendations appreciated.

[Yummyrum]

If you can fit them in there, 7x 1” tubes will be better than 7x 3/4” tubes . More surface area , slower vapour speed will mean more dwell time and less water in the deflag will mean quicker response to adjustment of coolant flow .

You won’t have issues with vapour bypassing up the middle of the 1” tube .
Make it about 4-5” long , you’ll be fine .
Oh yeah and use the thinnest wall stuff you can get . It will be easier to fit it in .

[30xs]

If you can fit them in there, 7x 1” tubes will be better than 7x 3/4” tubes . More surface area , slower vapour speed will mean more dwell time and less water in the deflag will mean quicker response to adjustment of coolant flow .

You won’t have issues with vapour bypassing up the middle of the 1” tube .
Make it about 4-5” long , you’ll be fine .
Oh yeah and use the thinnest wall stuff you can get . It will be easier to fit it in .

Thanks, Yummyrum. I have type M 1”. I didn’t think the wall thickness would made any difference in firms to since it was all 1.125” o.d., unless you mean the 4”? I planned on using type M for my tubes being the thinnest and possibly having a faster thermal transfer.

[Yummyrum]

Yeah I agree that thermal transfer would be better with the thin stuff . But I was thinking your copper is ID sized so was assuming that the thinner it was , the greater the distance between tubes and therefore the easier in terms of construction .
To be honest I have a pile of 1/2” in the shed ready to rebuild mine . I figure you could squeeze more 1/2” into the 4” than the larger sizes .

[30xs]

1/2” I.D, would take 28 tubes to be equivalent to seven 1” I.D, tubes. I input that into the little circles in a circle calculator that I saved from somewhere on this site and 29 was the max that would fit, but that is no spacing. The surface contact of the inside of the tubes would be massive since two 1/2 would equal one 1”, but it would require four 1/2” to equal one on volume to keep the vapor speeds equal between the two. Those numbers are based on plumbing I.D., not refrigeration O.D. I keep forgetting there is also that confusion that comes into play when we talk tube sizes. I have a printed template for the 1” I.D. and I should have about 1/8” between all my pipes. With my soldering skills, or lack thereof, I will be trying that approach. My local scrap yard had a full unbroken bundle of 1” setting in the corner at $2.50/lb. I picked up a cleaner piece since some of the bundle had a little green on it.

[30xs]

Quick question. What length should I have in my column below the bottom plate? I was planning on running 26” of column with 5 1/2” on center plates. That would put my J trap basically at my ferrule to connect to the keg. I’m running a 4” ferrule on the keg, so no adapter to be concerned with. Other than detracting from the looks I have a small piece I could add ferrules to and increase plate to boiler distance, or I could shorten up my plate spacing slightly to gain extra room under the plate?

[Yummyrum]

It won’t matter at all .

[googe]

If you have space and time i'd add some distance between bottom plate and open boiler space, Dont realy have reasoning except a anal belief keeping the 5'5 spacing from boiler bottom to plate,