4 plate flute plans and build

[30xs]

I am putting together a plan for a flute build and figured I’d start with posting my ideas here for review to save making a mistake only to find out later something may have had a better, or simpler route that I could have used. I have 36” of 4” L copper as my starting point. I am thinking that should give me enough for a dephlegmater ~10” module with a 4-5” dephleg with 7 3/4” type M tubes. Top and bottom plates will be 1/8”. Through tubes will be about an 1/8” longer on the bottom side, flush on top. That leaves the 26” for column. Planning on doing 4 perf plates, about 180 1/16” holes with 5.5” spacing. Running Emptyglass style 3/4” downcomers, 3/4” above the plates. Leaving me with 4” below the bottom plate to build a J trap and keep it inside my ferrules. Found some 2” trap adapters to use as sight windows and runnng 1/8” borosilicate glass. I’ll probably cut a section out of a copper P trap for the 180 at the top into a shotgun. The shotgun I’m planning either seven 1/2” O.D. ACR tubes, or five 1/2” type M, inside a 2” shell. Crunching the numbers the 5 tube 1/2” has slightly better numbers. I will probably be building it somewhere around the 18-20” cooling length, 22-24” total length. I cut my plates for condenser end plates and baffles using a circle cutter in a drill press. I can remove the bit and get a circle that requires hand rolling across sandpaper to final size. My other option would be to leave the bit and open the center hole to 3/8” after spinning them to final size. The solder in a 1/4” tube in the middle. I know it is a bit on the small side for a condenser, but with 1/16” perf plates and having 5 other tubes is there a reason to not having it there? I liked the idea of it reducing the surface area on top of the condenser plate as well.


Questions:
1. With my tube configuration what would be the ideal dephleg size for a quick response and still be able to hold reflux?
2. What size hose would be the minimum for water supply? I currently use 3/8 O.D. push lock connections and have Legris
flow control valves for that tubing size. Will that suffice, or should I step up to 1/2”?

[30xs]

Dabbled a bit playing around with some pieces. I think I’ve figured out the thermowell and punched a few baffles for a seven 3/8” PC and have a couple ugly five 1/2” end plates and baffle blanks. I’m going to try and make a set of more evenly spaced five tube end caps, hopefully, before punching the baffles.

[Setsumi]

cannot comment on dephlag but I found it better to cut the plates with a snip and finished it of spinning against a flapdisk than a holesaw.

on the downcommers, consider a cap as trap. I think 3/4 rise above plate is a bit much but your plate spacing at 5.5" will help.
last, I have <6% open area and I am happy. Your open area sounds large. the more open area the harder you need to run to keep plates stacked. a lower % will allow a softer boil. see my post below.

[Setsumi]

well just feeded your perf size and count for my spreadsheet and come below 5% open area, that should work well.

[30xs]

well just feeded your perf size and count for my spreadsheet and come below 5% open area, that should work well.

Thank, Setsumi. That was the design usd by Dan, and a few others and from posts from them I felt it was fairly well proven design. My concerns were more on the dephleg height (being seven 3/4 tubes). Minimum size coolant lines. Little things that people find they would have done differently.

[Bushman]

My dephlagmater has five 3/4” tubes, the total length of my dephlagmater is 6”. This is on a 4” column with copper packing. I can get 100% reflux.

[30xs]

My dephlagmater has five 3/4” tubes, the total length of my dephlagmater is 6”. This is on a 4” column with copper packing. I can get 100% reflux.

Thank, Bushman. Would there be any issues running seven 3/4” tubes and going shorter, say 4-4 1/2”? I have read that if the water volume is too large it caUses a slow response time to water adjustments, but too small won’t provide adequate reflux. I’ll be using 4” for this build. I was planning on using M for the tubes since it is thinner and should have a faster thermal transfer rate, or am I overthinking that’s? Should a baffle be used in the dephleg, of just an open area between tubes between the input and outlet?

[Sharks_n_danger]

I don’t have baffles in my dephlag, but I did offset the inlet and outlet 180 degrees to create turbulence.

[30xs]

I think I’d prefer to keep them on the same side If possible. I did accomplish a little today. Won’t get another chance to mess with it until Sunday.

Modified a couple elbows for the J trap

Was finally successful at making an aluminum pattern for the five 1/2” condenser. I can fit 8 baffles or two endplates and 4 baffles to punch them all at once housed inside a piece of scrap 2”. Planning on taking them to a buddy’s house and punch multiples at once on his end mill.

[Saltbush Bill]

Baffles in a deflag are a lot of work for little gain in my opinion, few if any of the professional builders bother with them as far as I know. Pretty sure the commercially available mass produced ones such as those available from Still Dragon are also without baffles.

[shadylane]

Just my opinion
A plated column doesn't need a packed column sized dephleg
It doesn't take much reflux to keep the plates loaded

[30xs]

[quote="Saltbush Bill"]Baffles in a deflag are a lot of work for little gain in my opinion, few if any of the professional builders bother with them as far as I know. Pretty sure the commercially available mass produced ones such as those available from Still Dragon are also without baffles.

I can build one either way with minimal extra effort. Would I be better suited to running 3/8 push to connect fittings (1/4” I.D. lines) the help minimize the amount of water volume I would need to try and regulate?

[acfixer69]

Just a note to keep things clear:

A dephlegmator is a device arranged for the partial condensation of a multicomponent vapor stream. The vapor stream flows vertically upwards and the condensate (condensed vapor) runs back down under the influence of gravity. The vapor stream and condensate thus move counter currently and are in direct contact with each other. In addition to heat transfer between the vapor stream and cooling medium, mass is transferred between the rising vapor and falling condensate. Vapor leaving the device has become concentrated in the more volatile components, while the condensate is richer in the less volatile components. In the industrial rather than laboratory contexts, many writers use the word 'dephlegmator,' only if the device being described is a main unit in the process plant.

A reflux condenser refers to the portion of the overhead liquid product from a distillation column or fractionator that is returned to the upper part of the column in a typical industrial distillation column. Inside the column, the downflowing reflux liquid provides cooling and condensation of the upflowing vapors thereby increasing the efficiency of the distillation column.

The more reflux provided for a given number of theoretical plates, the better is the column's separation of lower boiling materials from higher boiling materials. Conversely, for a given desired separation, the more reflux is provided, the fewer theoretical plates are required.

So my point is that in a CM like a typical plated column you are not looking for 100% reflux so you would like it to be as small and responsive as possible and with a packed column it needs to run full 100% so overkill is OK.
Just my option for a plated column smaller is better.

[30xs]

Just a note to keep things clear:

A dephlegmator is a device arranged for the partial condensation of a multicomponent vapor stream. The vapor stream flows vertically upwards and the condensate (condensed vapor) runs back down under the influence of gravity. The vapor stream and condensate thus move counter currently and are in direct contact with each other. In addition to heat transfer between the vapor stream and cooling medium, mass is transferred between the rising vapor and falling condensate. Vapor leaving the device has become concentrated in the more volatile components, while the condensate is richer in the less volatile components. In the industrial rather than laboratory contexts, many writers use the word 'dephlegmator,' only if the device being described is a main unit in the process plant.

A reflux condenser refers to the portion of the overhead liquid product from a distillation column or fractionator that is returned to the upper part of the column in a typical industrial distillation column. Inside the column, the downflowing reflux liquid provides cooling and condensation of the upflowing vapors thereby increasing the efficiency of the distillation column.

The more reflux provided for a given number of theoretical plates, the better is the column's separation of lower boiling materials from higher boiling materials. Conversely, for a given desired separation, the more reflux is provided, the fewer theoretical plates are required.

So my point is that in a CM like a typical plated column you are not looking for 100% reflux so you would like it to be as small and responsive as possible and with a packed column it needs to run full 100% so overkill is OK.
Just my option for a plated column smaller is better.

Thanks, Acfixer. Quick question though. Can smaller be say seven 3/4” tubes and only 4” cooling area, or does the tube amount have a direct relationship to the cooling effect? Would even shorter be effective at partial reflux and responsive at the same time? Not having any experience with a dephleg I have no idea what is to be expected from any size other than what I read on here. I know Dan used seven 1” tubes and I’m thinking around 4.5”, if memory serves me correctly. I also thought that many were putting their flutes into full reflux for 15-30 minutes prior to taking off fores? I haven’t cut dephleg plate or tube yet. Just wanting to get my design sorted prior any cutting. I have limited 1/8” plate for plates and dephleg ends.

[shadylane]

Not to drag the post off the subject of defleg sizing
But before I forget
Instead of using a thermowell
I think it would be better to have the thermometer probe directly exposed to the vapor

[30xs]

Not to drag the post off the subject of defleg sizing
But before I forget
Instead of using a thermowell
I think it would be better to have the thermometer probe directly exposed to the vapor

That would be simpler than the thermowell. I just thought that the probe needed to be shielded from any reflux or condensate? I remembered seeing other builds with thermowells and thought they were needed. As far as off topic goes, anything related to best designs for a flute build I’m all ears. For example, what is the minimum distance of the condenser from the column? The largest return bend I’ve found so far is 6” center to center. That would put the PC about 3” from the column.

[30xs]

Overlook the crude drawing, but in theory would a parrot design like this work? I’ve only been using one during the stripping runs currently, but I was thinking this setup would allow closing the ball valve to get a reading and open the dump to drain everything and bypass it. My thinking was at a jar swap I could test proof and dump fill the jar and minimize smearing. The parrots beak would only be there as a safety factor to catch any dribble over and send it to the same collection point as the dump valve. It wouldn’t exactly be elegant, but.... The black dots above the condenser reducer are supposed to represent vent holes.

[OtisT]

Not to drag the post off the subject of defleg sizing
But before I forget
Instead of using a thermowell
I think it would be better to have the thermometer probe directly exposed to the vapor

That would be simpler than the thermowell. I just thought that the probe needed to be shielded from any reflux or condensate?

+1 to not using a thermowell. It would take way too long to see real vapor temp changes. You are correct, that you need to keep liquid off of the sensor.

I have two potential ways to address your valid concern. 1, offset the thermometer enough so that the sensor is outside of the column’s internal fall line. 2, build a shield over the sensor. I have made both but prefer option 1 because it makes cleaning easier because there is nothing sticking into the column that would block a brush or packing.

I can send pics of either option if the description does not make sense. Otis

[acfixer69]

7DE726E5-2721-4E47-B907-7AF13F23C397.jpeg

Overlook the crude drawing, but in theory would a parrot design like this work? I’ve only been using one during the stripping runs currently, but I was thinking this setup would allow closing the ball valve to get a reading and open the dump to drain everything and bypass it. My thinking was at a jar swap I could test proof and dump fill the jar and minimize smearing. The parrots beak would only be there as a safety factor to catch any dribble over and send it to the same collection point as the dump valve. It wouldn’t exactly be elegant, but.... The black dots above the condenser reducer are supposed to represent vent holes.

That will work just adjust the parrot to be below the vent holes or it won't work. Also Your other question about the stabilization time, I don't feel that is necessary. In the early days of home plated columns the methods of running them were mimicking the neutral seeking packed style columns and certainly didn't hurt any to do it. But if you wanted too do it anyway you can reduce heat input and it will stabilize as long as it is fast enough to maintain the perf plates if you running them. I run caps and valve plates and have unlimited turndown rate.

[OtisT]

7DE726E5-2721-4E47-B907-7AF13F23C397.jpeg

Overlook the crude drawing, but in theory would a parrot design like this work? I’ve only been using one during the stripping runs currently, but I was thinking this setup would allow closing the ball valve to get a reading and open the dump to drain everything and bypass it. My thinking was at a jar swap I could test proof and dump fill the jar and minimize smearing. The parrots beak would only be there as a safety factor to catch any dribble over and send it to the same collection point as the dump valve. It wouldn’t exactly be elegant, but.... The black dots above the condenser reducer are supposed to represent vent holes.

This is close, but needs some adjustments in my opinion.

The vent holes may present a problem. Condensation flowing down the walls of the PC would likely leak out those holes. If you do this, maybe consider drilling the holes angled down as opposed to straight in to help keep the liquid inside.

You will need to fill the parrot to the top rim of the inner pipe to read your meter. That makes the parrot beak more than just a safety overflow, but something that will spill over each time you want to read it. With this in mind.....

As drawn, it would take quite a bit of liquid just to get to a reading. Lower the parrot so the beak overflow is below the bottom of the PC reducer fitting. Also consider a much smaller line from that reducer to the bottom of the parrot to help minimize volume.

One issue with feeding the parrot from the bottom could be that a fast/steady flow could artificially raise the meter and give you a false reading. That is one curse of a parrot. There is no way to stop the flow to the parrot to eliminate this potential issue without draining the parrot. A larger pipe with more room around your meter prevents this up pressure issue. The downside to a larger pipe is that the volume needed to fill it is greater. One possible workaround would be to reengineer the thing so that the default path is out (and of a larger diameter all the way through), and the valve is only used to fill the parrot with a tight fitting meter and small plumbing to minimize volume. The same valve would then drain the parrot for a subsequent reading. This would also eliminate the need for any vent holes in the PC jacket. Just a thought.

Me, I’m not a fan of parrots. I’d recommend you first learn to still on this equipment by taking exact manual readings and record vapor temp readings for correlation. Then decide if you really need a parrot. Just my opinion, but unless you need frequent and exact ABV readings, there are easier and less complex ways to know what your output ABV is.

Otis

[acfixer69]

The attachment 7DE726E5-2721-4E47-B907-7AF13F23C397.jpeg is no longer available

Overlook the crude drawing, but in theory would a parrot design like this work? I’ve only been using one during the stripping runs currently, but I was thinking this setup would allow closing the ball valve to get a reading and open the dump to drain everything and bypass it. My thinking was at a jar swap I could test proof and dump fill the jar and minimize smearing. The parrots beak would only be there as a safety factor to catch any dribble over and send it to the same collection point as the dump valve. It wouldn’t exactly be elegant, but.... The black dots above the condenser reducer are supposed to represent vent holes.

This is close, but needs some adjustments in my opinion.

The vent holes may present a problem. Condensation flowing down the walls of the PC would likely leak out those holes. If you do this, maybe consider drilling the holes angled down as opposed to straight in to help keep the liquid inside.

The product should not be running down the wall as the OP says that the bottom tubes will extend below the condenser. This should put the product in the reducer a better way to vent IMO is as shown below. It can be much shorter this was an early days plate I built.

You will need to fill the parrot to the top rim of the inner pipe to read your meter. That makes the parrot beak more than just a safety overflow, but something that will spill over each time you want to read it. With this in mind.....

As drawn, it would take quite a bit of liquid just to get to a reading. Lower the parrot so the beak overflow is below the bottom of the PC reducer fitting. Also consider a much smaller line from that reducer to the bottom of the parrot to help minimize volume.

One issue with feeding the parrot from the bottom could be that a fast/steady flow could artificially raise the meter and give you a false reading. That is one curse of a parrot. There is no way to stop the flow to the parrot to eliminate this potential issue without draining the parrot. A larger pipe with more room around your meter prevents this up pressure issue. The downside to a larger pipe is that the volume needed to fill it is greater. One possible workaround would be to reengineer the thing so that the default path is out (and of a larger diameter all the way through), and the valve is only used to fill the parrot with a tight fitting meter and small plumbing to minimize volume. The same valve would then drain the parrot for a subsequent reading. This would also eliminate the need for any vent holes in the PC jacket. Just a thought.

Me, I’m not a fan of parrots. I’d recommend you first learn to still on this equipment by taking exact manual readings and record vapor temp readings for correlation. Then decide if you really need a parrot. Just my opinion, but unless you need frequent and exact ABV readings, there are easier and less complex ways to know what your output ABV is.

Otis

[OtisT]

acfixer, any chance you can take a closeup of the product side? Possibly with a solid color blanket or sheet of plywood behind it. With all that stuff behind the still and a low res pic, I can’t see any detail. Looks good from a distance. Otis

[DetroitDIY]

Hey 30xs, you may want to think about modularity to accomodate a carter head or such at some point.

And a CIP system is very nice for these columns. I added one for my system after building and it's been a godsend (viewtopic.php?f=17&t=65335&start=120). Clean puke-ups from filling a rum wash too high easily and get back on to distilling.

And a packed column section is also a nice add that I've been glad others directed me to add.

And in my boiler, I wish I added a larger drain valve... my 1/2" system seems to get a little choked at times, especially if I've run something dirty.

And elevating the boiler drain 6-12" above the ground is nice for draining, especially if you're gravity fed to an outside dump pit that's 40' away as I am.

And quick connects on the water reservoir (if you plan to drain it, or trickle discharge when it heats up too much), and the CIP connection, and the boiler drain, are nice.

And an integral support for your collection jar on the parrot has been nice, but I'm also glad I made the support removable... when I run the CIP from the garden hose it will flood the parrot and spit water all about, so I like to take the collection support off and place a large water catch bucket under it.

Good luck,
DetroitDIY

[shadylane]

I just thought that the probe needed to be shielded from any reflux or condensate?

Don't worry about shielding the thermometer from reflux
On a CM still the thermometer should be above the defleg and there's only vapor up there.

[30xs]

I just thought that the probe needed to be shielded from any reflux or condensate?

Don't worry about shielding the thermometer from reflux
On a CM still the thermometer should be above the defleg and there's only vapor up there.

I had planned on putting one above and below the dephleg, the way Dan did in his build. One little 10” module to hold both thermometers and the dephleg. I already bought the thermos, but I could always leave one out if it would be better.

[30xs]

Cut my 1/8” copper for the plates and the dephleg. Stopped at the blank plates until I decide on the dephleg tube amount. Maybe acfixer, or someone else can correct my way of thinking if I’m wrong. Let’s use 4” height as a measure point. Wouldn’t seven tubes heat the water in the dephleg faster than five making the response time quicker with more tubes? Since more tubes would displace more water there is less water to heat up, so a faster response, or am I completely wrong? More tubes may require a taller dephleg? The other thing that has stopped me for a bit is how tight should the plates be to the column? Right now I have 5 of them too large to push into the column. One of them I cut .012” smaller than the rest and it falls through the pipe in a tumbling fashion. I’m hoping to salvage it for a dephleg end, or I can just cut another for that.

[30xs]

Hey 30xs, you may want to think about modularity to accomodate a carter head or such at some point.

And a CIP system is very nice for these columns. I added one for my system after building and it's been a godsend (viewtopic.php?f=17&t=65335&start=120). Clean puke-ups from filling a rum wash too high easily and get back on to distilling.

And a packed column section is also a nice add that I've been glad others directed me to add.

And in my boiler, I wish I added a larger drain valve... my 1/2" system seems to get a little choked at times, especially if I've run something dirty.

And elevating the boiler drain 6-12" above the ground is nice for draining, especially if you're gravity fed to an outside dump pit that's 40' away as I am.

And quick connects on the water reservoir (if you plan to drain it, or trickle discharge when it heats up too much), and the CIP connection, and the boiler drain, are nice.

And an integral support for your collection jar on the parrot has been nice, but I'm also glad I made the support removable... when I run the CIP from the garden hose it will flood the parrot and spit water all about, so I like to take the collection support off and place a large water catch bucket under it.

Good luck,
DetroitDIY

I’m building it as modular as I can. I’ll have a four plate section, dephleg section, cap to elbow or radius (if I can find something that keeps the PC far enough from the column) and tri clamp connections on both ends of the PC. I already have a 1” drain valve and 1.5” fill port. As to the carter head, isn’t that for gin? I’m not really interested in that at the moment, but I will be modular to the point that it could be added later. I’ve been running 3/8” push to lock fittings, 1/4” I.D. tubing currently. What size will be needed for the flow on a flute?

[acfixer69]

acfixer, any chance you can take a closeup of the product side? Possibly with a solid color blanket or sheet of plywood behind it. With all that stuff behind the still and a low res pic, I can’t see any detail. Looks good from a distance. Otis

No chance at all that was cut up in to single units years ago but its clear enough as how I vented it if you enlarge it on a puter Sorry

[shadylane]

I had planned on putting one above and below the dephleg, the way Dan did in his build.

Instead of having one below the defleg, I'd use it for the boiler temp

posting with ac

[acfixer69]

Hey 30xs, you may want to think about modularity to accomodate a carter head or such at some point.

And a CIP system is very nice for these columns. I added one for my system after building and it's been a godsend (viewtopic.php?f=17&t=65335&start=120). Clean puke-ups from filling a rum wash too high easily and get back on to distilling.

And a packed column section is also a nice add that I've been glad others directed me to add.

And in my boiler, I wish I added a larger drain valve... my 1/2" system seems to get a little choked at times, especially if I've run something dirty.

And elevating the boiler drain 6-12" above the ground is nice for draining, especially if you're gravity fed to an outside dump pit that's 40' away as I am.

And quick connects on the water reservoir (if you plan to drain it, or trickle discharge when it heats up too much), and the CIP connection, and the boiler drain, are nice.

And an integral support for your collection jar on the parrot has been nice, but I'm also glad I made the support removable... when I run the CIP from the garden hose it will flood the parrot and spit water all about, so I like to take the collection support off and place a large water catch bucket under it.

Good luck,
DetroitDIY

I’m building it as modular as I can. I’ll have a four plate section, dephleg section, cap to elbow or radius (if I can find something that keeps the PC far enough from the column) and tri clamp connections on both ends of the PC. I already have a 1” drain valve and 1.5” fill port. As to the carter head, isn’t that for gin? I’m not really interested in that at the moment, but I will be modular to the point that it could be added later. I’ve been running 3/8” push to lock fittings, 1/4” I.D. tubing currently. What size will be needed for the flow on a flute?

If you look at my oldy 2 90's and a nipple or more you can put it out there as far as you need. Of course too far and balance and support is a need.