Plates without dephlegmator for whiskey

[pope]

I’ve been reading The Nano Distillery and there’s a section that makes it sound like you can run a plated column without reflux/dephleg for flavored spirits. It distinguishes this as a ‘reflux’ still as opposed to a plated still with dephlegmator which it refers to as a ‘fractionating’ still. I did several searches and maybe it’s semantics, but I couldn’t find any discussion about doing a spirit run with plates but no dephlegmator. Is this something anyone does? Did I miss something? If I run with plates but no dephleg should I run 2, 3, 4?

[Bushman]

It is a fractionating still as the plates give what we call passive reflux. In the glossary it is defined.
viewtopic.php?f=46&t=58100

[LWTCS]

Also, depending on heat input and ambient temps, sometimes there can be enough passive reflux to load a single or double plate.
Or,,,,,wet rag on top of the lyne arm.
That's what Moonbreath did for a time till he got tired of being a rag jockey.

[Saltbush Bill]

Its more trouble than its worth if you ask me.....dont expect anything better than you can do with a pot still.

[pope]

Definitely not seeing a lot of liquid accumulating on the plates... the lower of two has a little puddle but without an obstruction above it the top plate runs mostly dry, even with a box fan blowing in the direction of the riser and plates. I’m sure a 12” copper column has different thermodynamics but I’ll pretty much call this a pot still run and get my dephleg built for next time.

[pope]

Larry I am definitely not hands on enough to keep wetting down a rag on top of the column! Dephleg it will have to be.

[Swedish Pride]

if you are running caps plates are that not just like running a load of small thumpers in line?
I think I've a hazy memory of someone turning the RC off after fores when running caps. I may be drunk and missremember but I'm going to call it a fact for now.

[Twisted Brick]

I think I've a hazy memory of someone turning the RC off after fores when running caps. I may be drunk and missremember but I'm going to call it a fact for now.

Nah, you're not drunk, SP. I just read this very thing a couple of nights ago, where an experienced guy explained how once he got his capped plates loaded and took 'fores off, turned off his dephlegmator and finished the run.

[Swedish Pride]

i beg to differ, unless I've 20 fingers all of a sudden

[shadylane]

Someone I know
Uses a packed column for making brandy.
He runs the column at 99% reflux to draw off the foreshots.
Then shuts off the RC for the rest of the run.
Another trick he uses
After the fruit has finished fermenting
He will add a gallon or two of neutral
And let it set awhile before distilling
Claims the added alcohol will suck more of the flavor from the fruit

[Bushman]

I haven’t tried that SP but sounds like an interesting way to do the run. I am guessing you would have similar results with that technique using copper mesh as well.
Shady I am guessing it would draw more of the fruit flavor almost like mascerating before doing a run

[pope]

Shady, this someone you know doesn’t lose any flavor from the packing when there’s no reflux? Copper mesh?

[shadylane]

Hell if I know, but he makes better brandy than me

[emptyglass]

@pope.

Its not a true "fractionating" still. Not on a hobby level.

A pot still catches flavour because it runs fast. A column still can make vodka/neutral because it runs slow.

Its not that hard when you think about it. If you push it through fast you will capture flavour. great for brown spirits. If your still can refine what it gets presented to it, it can then remove flavour if given enough time to do its job properly

Where a plated column fits in is it can be driven to one or the other

[pope]

I’m just trying to see where a short stack of plates fits into the flavored spirits (whiskey, rum, brandy etc) category. I know lots of flavored spirits makers use 4 plated stills any many here will use two or four and maintain flavor profiles with better cuts and a more condensed product (at least prior to bottling). For my brain to be satisfied I just need to do some a/b testing in different configurations to smell and taste the differences for myself, but after running two plates with passive reflux I don’t see a difference by the numbers and my current recipe is too different and the memory of past tastings too distant to say there was a difference. When I have another spirit of the same recipe I’ll run it with a dephleg and see! The value proposition of a 4-plate flute over a pot still as I understand it is an increase in speed relative to the amount of separation between heads/hearts/tails. And better separation overall. For producers a higher proof end volume is also lighter per proof gallon and thus more maneuverable.

[shadylane]

I couldn’t find any discussion about doing a spirit run with plates but no dephlegmator. Is this something anyone does? Did I miss something?

"Spirit run with plates but no dephlegmator"
No reflux is what I'd call running a column in potstill mode.
That's easier than disassembling the column
And fixing the leaks, when Ya put it back together
Besides a little passive reflux and copper ain't gonna hurt
In order to get any of the plates to load up
Your probably going to need more knock down power than passive can give

editing while pope was posting

[pope]

That was my thought until I read a book with bill owens’ name on the cover and I got confused. Thus, this thread.

[emptyglass]

ok. lets go back to tin tak's.

A plated column is designed to do what a pot still can but with less labour.

It is designed to give you multiple distillation cycles in one run. Hence avoiding the need to do seperate stripping and spirit runs.

They can also act like a pot still. Just turn the RC off. And you can play pot stills with a fancy jigga. So lets be real about it....

Why would you use a plated column still if not for the advantages it gives you. You could build or obtain a simple pot still if you wanted to piss fart around with stripping and slow pot still runs
Best to find a creek under the light of the moon and do it hard core if you want that.

You dont need a stripping run. Thats not what plated columns are about

[shadylane]

You dont need a stripping run. Thats not what plated columns are about

You don't need a stripping run, But I've found it helps
The pot full of mash gets boiled for longer time when running reflux
The extra boiling time seems to draw out more the unwanted flavors
I think, quickly stripping the mash then redistilling makes for a smoother whiskey
Might even let Ya make wider cuts compared to One run and done

[pope]

Why use it without a dephlegmator? I haven't finished building it yet but I have the plated chambers. Just got a fresh flap disc just for copper so now I can grind down my mediocre welds and do a second pass to clean 'em up and move forward.

And I'm still theorizing about my preferred process but I think I am leaning towards stripping, then a spirit run w/ or w/o a fraction of ferment included, refluxing the fores and early heads, then shutting down reflux and pot distilling the main cut. Maybe refluxing late tails for compression. I expect in this way I could recycle late heads and tail infinitely. BUT, I have only done pot distilliation and boka so far, my plate experience is nil.

Plus, I have gotten into the habit of soaking copper in my low wines and I need low wines to do that.

[pope]

One other question along the lines of modding a flute - if I wanted to run it as a CM and pack part of the column, would I be better off adding 12-24" of packing above the plates, or just filling the plated sections with packing? I could of course do both and then rely on the HETP calculator to find out where I'll reach azeotropic purity, but if I mix packing with plates I would prefer to not do overkill and keep at least some money in my pocket.

[shadylane]

One other question along the lines of modding a flute - if I wanted to run it as a CM and pack part of the column, would I be better off adding 12-24" of packing above the plates, or just filling the plated sections with packing?

"filling the plated sections with packing"
That sounds like a lot of work

"adding 12-24" of packing above the plates
That will work, if the Flute is sturdy enough to support the weight
I'd recommend putting the tallest column possible on top the pot.

[pope]

It's just a regular keg, but I haven't cut the top ring off (yet). The column material itself is pretty heavy/sturdy. In an ideal world I'd like to put a longer lyne arm on and then build a stand for the condenser so that there's no weight pulling the keg to one side, for now the condenser only clears the keg wall by 1/2" so it's a pretty tight package.

Filling the plated sections does sound like a lot of work... but my sections are those 4" stainless sight glasses so I can stack it sequentially with easy access to each plated chamber. But adding 24" of copper packing in one chamber and below those plated sight glasses would be easier. I suppose I could start with packing my existing column and seeing how far off the mark I am from azeo.

[The Baker]

Turn it upside down.
Connect a pipe to what used to be the ferrule in the top, via a two inch ferrule, to a tap and drain.
Set up the (new) top how you want. Four inch ferrule? Big cleaning hole?

Geoff

[LWTCS]

Turn it upside down.
Connect a pipe to what used to be the ferrule in the top, via a two inch ferrule, to a tap and drain.
Set up the (new) top how you want. Four inch ferrule? Big cleaning hole?

Geoff

[Bushman]

Turn it upside down.
Connect a pipe to what used to be the ferrule in the top, via a two inch ferrule, to a tap and drain.
Set up the (new) top how you want. Four inch ferrule? Big cleaning hole?

Geoff

This is a good idea as it is easier to weld a ferrule on the bottom than the top (I know from experience, the reason being is the thickness of the stainless on top is not even. At least on the keg I have). What you will then have to do if the drain is in the bottom is find some type of support to lift the keg off the ground. I have seen where some have added legs to the keg but I think there is an easier design by building up a cart that is open in the center for the drain and makes it portable.

[pope]

I’ve got a wood cart for my beer brewing kettles, and a wood stand for my boiler but I think I’m going to swap for bolted on square tubing legs. I have welded to the top and the bottom and the bottom is definitely better! My microstar keg top is very smooth/even but AB kegs have five ribs punched into the top that make adding a 4” ferrule a nightmare.