ceramic rings meant for using in an aquarium

[NineInchNails]

I wonder if a 3" stainless mesh gasket at the base of the column where it meets the kettle would be a good "support" for the nearly 10# of aquarium rings in the column?

IMG_9987 (1).jpg

That doesn't look like an appropriate gasket at all. It's black. I don't know what it is comprised of, but it could be Buna-N. If it is, I would never use it. Here they all say to use Teflon PTFE gaskets, but Platinum Cured Silicone gaskets are not unheard of though a bit against the rules here. I just sent you a direct message.

[UncleBuhlahkay]

Sweet. Got to love it when ALL the crap I got with my “budget” still setup sucks! At least I still like the boiler... waiting for that shoe to drop!

Do you think it’s possibly FKM?

There has to be some sort of “off the shelf solution” to support those aquarium rings in the column - possibly something like this perforated end cap from Glacier Tanks? Or is this a choke point as well?

https://www.glaciertanks.com/filter-spo ... 0-100.html

[NineInchNails]

Sweet. Got to love it when ALL the crap I got with my “budget” still setup sucks! At least I still like the boiler... waiting for that shoe to drop!

Do you think it’s possibly FKM?

There has to be some sort of “off the shelf solution” to support those aquarium rings in the column - possibly something like this perforated end cap from Glacier Tanks? Or is this a choke point as well?

https://www.glaciertanks.com/filter-spo ... 0-100.html

I don't know what your gasket is made of. You bought it I'd check the description from where you bought it. I'd prefer a silicone gasket with a very very coarse screen with a scrubber on top. That is an expensive SS part from Glacier Tanks. If I had that part, I'd drill most of those holes out really big, drop a SS scrubber on top then the packing.

[acfixer69]

The gasket is no way used here. Mesh screen is too fine. It is like a living room fire place with the mesh drapes to stop the pops from the wood. When you open the drapes the radiant heat will rush in the room. The mesh in the riser will restrict the vapor rising and take all the opening in the mesh and nothing will return to the boiler so will be flooding.

[NineInchNails]

The gasket is no way used here. Mesh screen is too fine. It is like a living room fire place with the mesh drapes to stop the pops from the wood. When you open the drapes the radiant heat will rush in the room. The mesh in the riser will restrict the vapor rising and take all the opening in the mesh and nothing will return to the boiler so will be flooding.

Essentially acting somewhat like a bubble plate. Yeah an unnecessary restriction and choke point.

[NineInchNails]

For my 3" column I made one of these copper disks from flattened copper pipe with a copper wire criss cross for each segment of my column. I chopped a piece of 3" SS pipe and bent it a little to make homemade snap rings. It holds the disks perfectly, never moves, but easily removed when needed. I then stick a scrubber over that then 1/2" Ceramic Packing on top of the scrubber.

An easy, but less convenient way is to make the same copper ring, but use a Still Dragon Plate Gasket. This will secure the plate at a Tri-Clamp joint. You would just have to be careful when removing your column or everything comes out the bottom. That's one reason why I broke my tall column into 4 different length segments and used the snap rings, so I can take it apart piece by piece and it's more modular. You could modify a PTFE gasket to do the same thing. Just Dremel away the interior of the gasket and it would do the same thing.

I've seen some people make a MUCH easier copper ring completely out of copper wire, no flattened out copper pipe like I did. A lot less work. Ceramic Rings are a lot lighter than you would expect and it doesn't take much to hold it up.

Another way to support packing could be to drill 4 tiny holes in the column, stick copper wire through to form a criss cross and solder them in place. Stick a scrubber on top and you're done. Built-in support without any fuss at all.

[WithOrWithoutU2]

Still watching, NIN. Sounds like you will be able to get the 95% based on the reflux amount you can through sight glass. I am anxious to hear how the clean the fraction will end up with the rings. As you know, just because you get 95%+ does not mean it held good separation after equilibrium. I'm hopeful.

[WithOrWithoutU2]

I wonder if a 3" stainless mesh gasket at the base of the column where it meets the kettle would be a good "support" for the nearly 10# of aquarium rings in the column?

IMG_9987 (1).jpg

I can 100% confirm what other have said about not using that screen. For one, that is not PTFE. More importantly it will not allow proper reflux up and down. Eventually, you will have flooding. I have one like it but is from PTFE and I flooded so bad, I had to shut down, cool off, empty my SPP, take out screened gasket, and start over. I just used a very tightly packed scrubby at bottom to hold up the SPP. But I am currently only using at 2" column so not as much weight.

[greggn]

There has to be some sort of “off the shelf solution” to support those aquarium rings in the column - possibly something like this perforated end cap from Glacier Tanks? Or is this a choke point as well?

https://www.glaciertanks.com/filter-spo ... 0-100.html

I use the 2" version of that filter to contain raschig rings. Be advised that the size of the media may block the holes in the filter. My 1/4" rings blocked the filter and resulted in flooding. The 3/8" rings are large enough to settle without impeding vapor flow.

A simple layer of copper mesh on top of the filter plate provides enough separation to use the 1/4" rings safely.

[MtRainier]

Shady and NIN, I think you've both run packed columns with stainless scrubbies. It sounds like these rings do better than tightly packed scrubbies? I've been pretty happy with my scrubbie output, but this sure would be easier to fill and rinse clean. I'd put one plug of copper mesh at the bottom like NIN to hold them all in and call it done.

[Sk8brew]

Are these rings working better than lavarock?

[NineInchNails]

Are these rings working better than lavarock?

Good question. I broke my hydrometer after getting the still running properly and couldn't test the output. A new one arrives today so I'm excited.

I don't know how to determine HEPT and if one packing is better than another at this point. I know there is a HEPT calculator here, but some of it is based on known packing like scrubbers, marbles, etc... I don't understand it well enough to make it work for these Ceramic Rings.

I was using mostly copper mesh previously and scrubbers at the top of the column. I cannot say for sure how well that was working out because I may have been experiencing issues due to the choke points that have now been fixed. All I can say for sure is that after making those corrections, I'm getting a hell of a lot more reflux, output is MUCH better, I can run at a lot higher power than before and the column is not flooding at all.

I was pretty happy with how my still was working before, but that's just because I didn't know any better at the time. I wasn't using a sight glass so I couldn't really tell what was going on for sure. It's a totally different animal now. Before I was making the cleanest, smoothest vodka, better than I ever thought possible with mesh & scrubbers. Later it started acting up and purity started to drop. I thought it was due to my copper mesh loosening up or something. That's when I decided to try these Ceramic Rings, zero maintenance and hopefully stable performance.

I think a sight glass is well worth while and can be used for many different things without permanent alterations. I made two bubble cap plates and they were put inside it. I just removed the bubble cap plates to use it as a sight glass for this test. I love it. This is the centering collar I made and installed at the top of the sight glass. It's working perfectly. It sends 100% of the reflux straight down the center. That's a Still Dragon plate gasket.

[zapata]

For holding up packing, a much better solution to flat screens and grids and such is a cone shape rather than flat. Much more surface area, no choking. Cone pointing up is how the lab and industrial ones I've seen are installed. Thick copper ground wire has worked well for me, but for some of these smaller packings you might need some 90 degree legs too, but still the 3D aspect will not only prevent choking, but they are supposed to actually improve overall fluid and vapor flow through the column.

I don't know how to determine HEPT and if one packing is better than another at this point.

The best way to compare is to use equal heights of two packings under identical circumstances, but using nowhere near a full column height. The differences are FAR easier to spot with just 2 theoretical plates or so rather than 10+. I find comparisons very useful to read about as it equalizes the rest of the setups variables, but just a simple computation of HETP with 6-12" of packing is still very useful info as long as power and reflux ratio are accurately recorded.

[NineInchNails]

For holding up packing, a much better solution to flat screens and grids and such is a cone shape rather than flat. Much more surface area, no choking. Cone pointing up is how the lab and industrial ones I've seen are installed. Thick copper ground wire has worked well for me, but for some of these smaller packings you might need some 90 degree legs too, but still the 3D aspect will not only prevent choking, but they are supposed to actually improve overall fluid and vapor flow through the column.

I don't know how to determine HEPT and if one packing is better than another at this point.

The best way to compare is to use equal heights of two packings under identical circumstances, but using nowhere near a full column height. The differences are FAR easier to spot with just 2 theoretical plates or so rather than 10+. I find comparisons very useful to read about as it equalizes the rest of the setups variables, but just a simple computation of HETP with 6-12" of packing is still very useful info as long as power and reflux ratio are accurately recorded.

That's good info about HEPT. My column has 4 segments. 12", 15", 17" and 33-1/2". I could easily test different packings with a short column at the same power level, same reflux, take-off rate and see what ABV it produces.

[NineInchNails]

I fired up the boiler and here's how it's going so far.

After equilibration for 45 min at 36% power 2000W for 45 min, zero flooding and the take-off was 95%-96% (after temp correction) at an interrupted stream. Wonderful!

I'm tempted to just leave it run as it is and get this run completed. I have plenty more to run later so I'll be back for sure tomorrow or the next day depending on how long this run takes.

If anyone has any recommendations on what data they would like me to collect I'll be more than happy to do it. All I could think of is to step up the power 5% at a time, equilibrate for 10 min and test the output %. I don't know if this is the best way to go about it or not, that's just what I've been doing. Now that I'm up & running properly, I don't mind gathering whatever useful data necessary to test this packing.

[seabass]

That's awesome. Any idea what the ideal size for a 2in column would be? I'm guessing 3/8 or 1/2in.

[NineInchNails]

That's awesome. Any idea what the ideal size for a 2in column would be? I'm guessing 3/8 or 1/2in.

I do not know. 1/2" is easily found on Amazon and it's not that expensive. You could always return it for free if it didn't work well, just be sure to soak, rinse the hell out of it and spread it out to dry first because retains a good deal of ethanol and is extremely porous. I'd hate to be the reason fish got poisoned

Do you have a link to any 3/8" Ceramic Packing? I've shopped around a lot and I've only found 1/2", 11/16"x5/8" and 3/4".

[seabass]

I haven't really looked that hard. I've been using copper packing and it's ok, but not what I want long term. I'll give the 1/2 inch a try. Eventually I'll get some 4in spools and go bigger, but I only make like 2 batches of vodka a year. It interferes with my whiskey pipeline.

[WithOrWithoutU2]

I fired up the boiler and here's how it's going so far.

After equilibration for 45 min at 36% power 2000W for 45 min, zero flooding and the take-off was 95%-96% (after temp correction) at an interrupted stream. Wonderful!
Untitled.jpg

I'm tempted to just leave it run as it is and get this run completed. I have plenty more to run later so I'll be back for sure tomorrow or the next day depending on how long this run takes.

If anyone has any recommendations on what data they would like me to collect I'll be more than happy to do it. All I could think of is to step up the power 5% at a time, equilibrate for 10 min and test the output %. I don't know if this is the best way to go about it or not, that's just what I've been doing. Now that I'm up & running properly, I don't mind gathering whatever useful data necessary to test this packing.

NIN,

I'd be interested to know how fast you can collect while still maintaining quality product (no smearing between fractions). For me, this is how I judge packing material. Most can get you to 95%, but how fast can you run and still keep integrity in the quality is the big difference between good, better, best.

Glad to see you've been able to easily get to 95% though.

[NineInchNails]

I got through half of the run last night and had to shut down. Everything ran perfectly. I sampled often and it stayed at 95% the whole time. I'm finishing the 2nd half of the run now.

On the next run I will work on increasing take-off speed. I'll log the input power, sample X amount, time it and determine the rate while sampling often to look for any drop in % purity. I may run at those settings for 30 min before stepping it up.

[shadylane]

Just a suggestion or two, for a really pure neutral

Do stripping runs with your column, run it hard and fast
Then dilute to 30-40% and rerun it.

Instead of trying to stack the column @ 100% reflux for 45 minutes
Run it @ 99% and let the foreshots slowly drip out.

Watch for the tails cut closely
The column will do a good job of compressing the tails
But once it's time for the tails to come through, it will happen quite fast.
Nothing ruins a neutral worst than peppery tails contaminating the hearts

[zed255]

Just a suggestion or two, for a really pure neutral

Do stripping runs with your column, run it hard and fast
Then dilute to 30-40% and rerun it.

Instead of trying to stack the column @ 100% reflux for 45 minutes
Run it @ 99% and let the foreshots slowly drip out.

Watch for the tails cut closely
The column will do a good job of compressing the tails
But once it's time for them to come through, it will happen quite fast.
Nothing ruins a neutral worst than peppery tails contaminating the hearts

Stripping with the reflux column sounds interesting. I think DerWo was an advocate of two relatively fast reflux passes for neutrals, not the same but along the same lines. Have yet to try it.

[shadylane]

It works really good, The stripping run gets rid of most the tails
The spirit run begins with higher proof low-wines in the boiler.
The column will work better, and the heads cut will be easier

[Saltbush Bill]

Agree 100% with shady......there is no need to stack the column for 45min or so...... you can start bleeding fores off very slowly almost immediately once column is up to operating temp.

[NineInchNails]

Really? I recall everything I've ever read recommends letting it reflux for 30 min and some go longer. I will certainly reflux strip my next wash. It makes perfect sense that it would come out higher proof and cleaner for the spirit run. I remember I actually did that when I did my first sacrificial spirit run and the proof was extremely high even when it was exiting fast. I totally forgot about that. Thanks for that tip!

I had a big batch of sugar wash, I stripped with the pot still, did a spirit run and made my cuts, but the end product still has bite to it. I assumed I got heads in my cut so I started re-running it again. Still came out with bite. I finally got around to getting this new Ceramic Packing, re-running that same stuff again and the hearts still have some bite to it. I don't care so much for me, but I wouldn't offer it to anyone else. I gift my pure, absolutely smooth stuff.

I believe this bite was caused due to unstable fermentation temps. At the time it was warm in the day, but got chilly at night in my unheated garage. Previous batches were in the high 80s F, even up to 90F, stayed warm all night and those batches came out as smooth as can be. I've been trying to re-run it to get that bite out, but I don't think it's possible. I'll live with it.

[shadylane]

Really? I recall everything I've ever read recommends letting it reflux for 30 min and some go longer.

Just my 2 cents worth and I'm often wrong
There's not much volume in a small diameter column.
Definitely not enough to hold the foreshots from 30 min worth of 100% refluxing.
I think letting the foreshots slowly drip out during that time, makes room for more vapor and reflux.

[zapata]

Really? I recall everything I've ever read recommends letting it reflux for 30 min and some go longer.

It's a thing. Think about it like this, the acetone that's gonna end up in fores after a 2 hour full reflux isn't just sitting in the boiler the whole time. I think long equilibrium phases are a holdover from when we all collectively had much less experience and much crappier gear. Being conservative in everyway possible paid dividends on short 1.5" columns.

I will certainly reflux strip my next wash. It makes perfect sense that it would come out higher proof and cleaner for the spirit run.

Also remember that for some congeners their volatility is supressed by higher alcohol, right about 40%. So things that would be heads on a run from wash will stay in the boiler. By stripping and running again you clump different congeners on different ends and have twice the chance to get 'em out.

[NineInchNails]

I just fired up the boiler, let the up the column slowly, NO equalization, refluxed 99% and took-off at slow drips for quite a while and collected 1 pint at 40%-45% power 2200W-2475W . I then cracked the valve open a bit more, took-off at an interrupted stream 1.5 lph, sampled and it read 93% temp 73F so that is approx 2% lower with temp correction. I forgot what the power was because I was surprised the purity was low.

I reduced power to 36% 1980W, sampled at 1.5 lph and it read 95% at 73F.

I closed the valve, put everything back into the boiler, brought the column back up to temp, equalized 36% 1980W for 10 min, started take-off 1.5 lph, tested and it read 96% at 72F. I kept collecting at the same rate, after a pint I tested again and it read 96% at 72F.

I decided to increase the take-off speed to 1.85 lph a solid trickle and it read 95% at 72F.

I increased the take-off speed to 3 lph at a fast trickle and it read 94.5%.

Seems to be doing just fine even when running at 3 lph, but I won't know if that speed smears heads into the hearts. The material I'm running has 'bite' to it and it seems to not go away no matter how many times I distill it. My next ferment will be temp controlled at 90F so it should come out smooth and then I can test take-off rates again.

[shadylane]

Unfortunately, all sugar wash's have a bite to it.
Time will knock much of the edge off

For higher proof
Try running your column with more power and a slower take off rate

[WithOrWithoutU2]

Unfortunately, all sugar wash's have a bite to it.
Time will knock much of the edge off

For higher proof
Try running your column with more power and a slower take off rate

+1 on more power, more reflux, higher abv.