Vapor Management Dephlagmator Position

[MountainBandit]

Hi, I have a question about a vapor management column design.

This is the top of my neutral spirits rig:

It has a shotgun dephlagmator running to a curve then into the condenser (on top of a tall packed column). If I run the dephlagmator water at full blast, I can reduce foreshots and heads to a slow drip, but I've never achieved full reflux. Yesterday I read in The Compleat Distiller about the "Vapor Management Still." The book's design looks like this photo posted in another thread: http://homedistiller.org/forum/download ... &mode=view

I.e. a dephlagmator at the top of the column, and a T-joint BELOW the deph running to a gate valve, and then into the condenser. I desperately want to make extremely clean neutral spirit, and I'd like to achieve full reflux to concentrate all foreshots and heads. So here's my question in diagram form:

Can I achieve a vapor management effect via idea 1, i.e. splicing a gate valve in the middle of my curve ABOVE the dephlagmator, or do I need to follow the tradition with the deph at the top of the column and an outlet below it leading to the gate valve? I've never run a still with the outlet sealed, and it scares me to death! Mostly I'm afraid of building a big pressure bomb (although I do have a pressure relief valve on my boiler), and to a lesser extent that idea 1 will somehow work more poorly than idea 2. I'm also concerned that my shotgun style deph (made of stainless) won't provide enough reflux. The book calls for a copper coil "cold finger" deph at the top of the column. Incidentally, I also have a dephlagmator twice the length that ONLY achieved perfect reflux , which I switched out for the one I have now, but I can switch it back in.

Any guidance would be most appreciated!

[jedneck]

DO NOT DO OPTION 1. IT IS A BOMB .

If you cant get full reflux with current deflag changing style of still won’t help. You either need less heat or larger condesor

[shadylane]

If I run the dephlagmator water at full blast, I can reduce foreshots and heads to a slow drip, but I've never achieved full reflux.

Listen to what Jedneck said
The first option is not only dangerous, it wouldn't make the still work better

On a side note
There's always the option of diluting the alcohol from the first run with water and redistilling.

[seabass]

The first option is a cm still with optional explosion mode.

[jedneck]

The first option is a cm still with optional explosion mode.

[Twisted Brick]

Placing your deph below the vapor outlet (now a CM) renders whatever vapor control you have from your valve greatly diminished, kind of like trying to control an automobile's speed with its throttle instead of its brakes.

By elevating your reflux condenser above your vapor outlet, you will have far more control of reflux ratio, but with a conventional VM configuration comes a different challenge:

No matter which type valve, gate, butterfly, or ball valve, or how closely it is positioned to the column, there is a liquid pool or vapor buffer zone between the column and valve. This dead zone is creating a smear between cuts. Pooled liquid is obvious, but if there is vapor backed up in this dead zone, there is some parasitic condensation and or mixing of these vapors. This is different than the mixing in the column because these vapor have no chance of reentering the reflux cycle.

Why not consider a CCVM? A CCVM might be the easiest way to your goal of extremely clean neutral.

[Danespirit]

+1 on what the other guys wrote.

Option 1 is merely a CM still BUT with a very dangerous possibility to acidentially close the valve...!
Sooner or later it will result in an explosion of some kind....so skip the valve and it will be fine.
IF you choose a CM over a VM design be aware of the CM is a little more tricky to run and will most likely require a needle valve to regulate the water flow to the dephlagmator. A VM is easier to run especially if it's the first time you run a reflux still.
Any still design should be open to atmosphere without any option to choke it off and cause a situation.
The size of your deplagmator depends on how much power you put into the system (and on the water temperature of course).
Any kind of energy that is put into the system has to go somewhere or be transformed into another form of energy.
If you're planning for a water circulation option the water will naturally be heated during the process of distilling.
This fact will affect both condensers in your system.

[DAD300]

Like others have pointed out Option one is a def BOMB!

If your using a conventional valve there will always be a small pool of liquid in front of the valve.

In a big still with gallons to collect this is insignificant. As the still gets smaller it is significant.

But for clean anything, I'll state that you never really want full reflux! And the smaller the column, the idea of stacking fractions is a myth.

The myth comes from industrial petro columns where they stack huge columns with vapor and heat control we can't achieve. Then they take of liquids and vapors at dif levels of the column.

But don't despair!

With a slow heatup you are filling your column with fores, then heads, then hearts,...

Slow your heatup, with a slow takeoff will get the fores, heads out of the still better than a full reflux will create.

FULL REFLUX is sending the fores and heads up and down the column, mixing it with however much hearts it takes to fill your column with vapor or liquid as the case may be.

Better separation and cleaner neutral is achieved with multiple distillations and watering the distillate before second run. The further you get from the yeast, the cleaner the neutral. Your second distillation will have no yeast in the boiler.

You'll know when you are too clean...I have people who didn't like some of my cleanest vodka, because it was completely tasteless and had no BUZZ! HEADS = BUZZ

My fores start coming over at say 165Fish and I let them come on out. Why would I want to send that crap back down the column or trap it on a plate. The first distillate out is going to be high proof anyway. When you believe you have all the unusable alcohols out...start getting serious about controlling the reflux.

Remember some of those early vapors you cannot condense! Your not going to stop the green apple smell getting past your reflux condenser.

[DAD300]

The original idea of the CCVM was simplicity and eliminating the expensive valve.

Then you also eliminate the placement issue.

[MountainBandit]

Thanks, guys! I had never heard of CCVM, but I just found this video explaining it:

Still not sure what the "CC" stands for in the name, but moving the coiled copper tube dephlagmator up and down looks ingenious, and I especially like the fact that it's not a bomb

The truth is that I've always been satisfied with my neutrals, but I was curious to see if I could make them a little better. Anyway, thanks again!

[MartinCash]

Still not sure what the "CC" stands for in the name...

Condenser Controlled

[MountainBandit]

Still not sure what the "CC" stands for in the name...

Condenser Controlled

[StriaghtJakket]

DAD, i really liked the read above. I have a CM still the same as Option one. but I did not go the premium self destruction model . I too had read the "complete distiller" and tried to follow it twice, and was thinking that if it was in full reflux, how is it going to stack in the column?? it has thrown me off tho how many claim, even in this forum that they will collect a jar or 2 of fores and heads and gallons of hearts? i only ever generally expect to get about a third. i have been trying to understand 'heads compression" i have defiantly run the still slow without much change BUT in generally have the heat up on full blast until the column is halfway heated.

[MartinCash]

StraightJakket, when I use my pot still, about a third hearts is a good average of what I get. However with my (non-CC) VM column I get a much smaller proportion of much more pungent heads/fores. I don't distinguish, as they're so vile, like the tails.

That said, I use different wash recipes for making neutral, so perhaps there were significantly less heads for starters.

[OtisT]

I too had read the "complete distiller" and tried to follow it twice, and was thinking that if it was in full reflux, how is it going to stack in the column??

I’ve never tried to stack foreshots, personally using the slow heat up approach to bleed off foreshots without any reflux going. I have had success compressing heads. It is never a “stack” of pure heads vs pure hearts, but there is a fairly clear (but small) change in temp that correlates to my cut point and I do see increased hearts yield.

It is possible that the part you may be missing regarding the compression of heads under full reflux has to do with power control. (Common issue I have seen with others trying unsuccessfully to compress). You can’t get good separation when running your column with too much power. The measure I have used and found to be close to accurate is that you need to keep vapor speed somewhere below 20 feet per second. That translates to roughly 1500w max on a 2” column, 3000w max on a 3” column, and 6000w max on a 4” column. My max numbers are slightly below these numbers, likely because my column is not nearly tall enough (Friggin 8’ ceilings. )

Your RC also comes into play on a short column when trying to get separation. You don’t want to overcool your liquid reflux so along with proper power levels, detuned your RC so that it is barely enough to knock everything down. The indicator I use for this is RC cooling water output temp. After I set my power close to where I need it, I slowly reduce flow to my RC until the RC water output is hot but not enough to burn. This assumes your condenser can go that slow and still keep all of your vapor in the column. If you can’t do this you need to increase vapor dwell time around your RC.

If you want to test this out yourself, don’t mess around near the max numbers I listed. Try 1000w for a 2”, 2000w for a 3”, etc. just a POC to see the results, then turn things up to find your column’s top end for good separation.

Otis

[StriaghtJakket]

Hey Otis, yep definitely noted. next time i will defiantly slow heating on the spirit run and see how it goes. it is a new still - much larger then my last -so still have a few dates together before we click.

StraightJakket, when I use my pot still, about a third hearts is a good average of what I get. However with my (non-CC) VM column I get a much smaller proportion of much more pungent heads/fores. I don't distinguish, as they're so vile, like the tails.

That said, I use different wash recipes for making neutral, so perhaps there were significantly less heads for starters.

Could be that i am still missing the heads cut on the Neuts? (birdwatchers and DWWG/wheat germ with inverted sugar) I never think they are vile, so to speak - but sweet and have a sting - not burn. from everything i have read and understand, that has been the heads. Yes the first jar or two are defiantly Vile, but i was under the impression that the sweet stuff was also heads.

when the sting and the sweetness dies down i make the heart cut.

[MartinCash]

If it's any help, to me the heads taste and smell like cheap vodka. That smell and taste disappears when you hit the hearts, if you're managing to make a fairly clean neutral.

[DAD300]

With this slow heatup and immediate bleed of fores & heads...I'm throwing out about the first 7% of what I collect as unusable. I don't redistill heads.

I'd say approx 12% tails I don't bottle or barrel...I save that 12% for the next run as feints and redistill it.

If it's going into a barrel, I make the cuts wider than if it's going for vodka or gin.

[Danespirit]

+1 DAD

As a rule of thumb I go for 10 % foreshots and heads and about the same for tails.

A lot of people talk about "compressing" heads.
As the equipment we distill with shouldn't generate any pressure at all I'd see the term "concentrating" as more appropriate.
Any still smears. However, it can be brought to a minimum with proper reflux going on and with a construction like DAD300's CCVM which eliminates the valve as a cause.
So if you haven't bought a valve already, go for this option as it is really the best alternative for a novice to start with.
By doing a stripping run on a potstill you can draw a lot of the nasty stuff at this point.
I prefer to do so as the stripping run goes fast and the additional time for taking the foreshots and some heads is well spend.
Also, as pointed out water is an excellent "filter". Always dillute your low wines to below 40% ABV...azeotropic condition is not a must in order to produce decent neutral spirit. So should you dillute it way down and only pull 93%ABV on your spirit run..never mind as long as it tastes clean.
You're going to dilute it to drinking strenght anyway.
No matter how effective your dephlagmator is and how much reflux is going on....it will NOT compensate for a bad ferment or a poor stripping run.

[OtisT]

A lot of people talk about "compressing" heads.
As the equipment we distill with shouldn't generate any pressure at all I'd see the term "concentrating" as more appropriate.

I agree that concentration is a much more appropriate term. I have been using the terminology I read/learned here on HD by saying compression and folks seem to understand what it means, but I agree that “compression“ does not represent what is literally going on. Does that make the use of the term Compression it a metaphor? I suck at grammar.

Any still smears. However, it can be brought to a minimum with proper reflux going on and with a construction like DAD300's CCVM which eliminates the valve as a cause.
So if you haven't bought a valve already, go for this option as it is really the best alternative for a novice to start with.

I would have built a CCVM by now because I would like to reduce costs of my builds, but I am plagued with only 8’ ceilings and I would rather have the extra foot of packing height than a cheeper build. Overall still height and max packing height are just two more thing for someone to consider when planning their build.

Otis

[Demy]

Like others have pointed out Option one is a def BOMB!

If your using a conventional valve there will always be a small pool of liquid in front of the valve.

In a big still with gallons to collect this is insignificant. As the still gets smaller it is significant.

But for clean anything, I'll state that you never really want full reflux! And the smaller the column, the idea of stacking fractions is a myth.

The myth comes from industrial petro columns where they stack huge columns with vapor and heat control we can't achieve. Then they take of liquids and vapors at dif levels of the column.

But don't despair!

With a slow heatup you are filling your column with fores, then heads, then hearts,...

Slow your heatup, with a slow takeoff will get the fores, heads out of the still better than a full reflux will create.

FULL REFLUX is sending the fores and heads up and down the column, mixing it with however much hearts it takes to fill your column with vapor or liquid as the case may be.

Better separation and cleaner neutral is achieved with multiple distillations and watering the distillate before second run. The further you get from the yeast, the cleaner the neutral. Your second distillation will have no yeast in the boiler.

You'll know when you are too clean...I have people who didn't like some of my cleanest vodka, because it was completely tasteless and had no BUZZ! HEADS = BUZZ

My fores start coming over at say 165Fish and I let them come on out. Why would I want to send that crap back down the column or trap it on a plate. The first distillate out is going to be high proof anyway. When you believe you have all the unusable alcohols out...start getting serious about controlling the reflux.

Remember some of those early vapors you cannot condense! Your not going to stop the green apple smell getting past your reflux condenser.

Hi dad, I have had this idea in mind for a long time and now I find confirmation. In your opinion such an approach is good: slow heating with exit of the first heads then closing of the valve for a balancing and exit of the last heads? i'm talking about VM. Thank you