Will I have enough power

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flat350
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Will I have enough power

Post by flat350 »

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New guy who has jumped in head first.This is my Boka,2"x48" column,15 gal barrel with 2 element bungs,1/4"x8" double coil up top,for cooling I have a 1000gpm at 2' head pump for cooling.
I have 240v/20a and 110v/15a available and I have 2-4500 watt elements.My math says a 4500 watt element is pushing a 20a circuit,if i dropped down to a 3500 watt element would it be enough? I could run a 4500 watt element on 110/15a if I needed more,or do I have too much now?
Second question is how much packing height do I really put in below the plates,I have almost 36" below them.
Any criticism or suggestion fire away but this is a budget build.
I have $20 in the barrel
$15 in the 2 valves
$-- in a controller
$-- in a thermometer
$-- so maybe $150 total
I'm a retired Plumber who has access to soldering supplies,TIG,silver solder and all kinds of collected materials,so it's try to make do with what I have
Last edited by flat350 on Tue Jan 12, 2021 6:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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shadylane
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Re: Will I have enough power

Post by shadylane »

I'm thinking the upper limit of how much power a 2" Boka can handle is less than 2500w
I'd pack the column to within a several inches of the take off plates.
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still_stirrin
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Re: Will I have enough power

Post by still_stirrin »

Do you really have a 1000 gpm pump with a 2 foot head? That’s a heck of a lot of water to push through 1/4” soft copper! At that flow rate, your pressure drop through the condenser will be astronomical. Now, if you meant 1000 gph, it’s still pushing a lot of water with only a marginal head....not sure if your pump will work for you.

You could run your two 4500W elements on 110VAC and you’d have almost 2250 watts total, which would be good in a 2” boka. Plus, each element would draw around 10 amps, safely below your 15 amp circuits. But you will need to run them on separate circuits.
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zed255
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Re: Will I have enough power

Post by zed255 »

I found my 2" ran best around 1500-1800W, much over 2000W in the long run could flood. With that in mind I'd use at least a 3000W element on the 240V circuit to help with heat up. For auxiliary heat you can use the second element on 120V. You will want a power controller to throttle your heat input to the right level. Two 4500W (or 5500W) on 120V is an option.

Pack as much as you can, unpacked height is of little value. Just don't let the packing touch your slant plates or thermowell.

Nice neat coil winding. Probably helped having been a plumber.
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shadylane
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Re: Will I have enough power

Post by shadylane »

Another option would be to connect the two 4500w elements in series.
And run them on 240v that would also give 2250w @ 9.4 amps
flat350
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Re: Will I have enough power

Post by flat350 »

still_stirrin wrote: Tue Jan 12, 2021 6:28 pm Do you really have a 1000 gpm pump with a 2 foot head? That’s a heck of a lot of water to push through 1/4” soft copper! At that flow rate, your pressure drop through the condenser will be astronomical. Now, if you meant 1000 gph, it’s still pushing a lot of water with only a marginal head....not sure if your pump will work for you.

You could run your two 4500W elements on 110VAC and you’d have almost 2250 watts total, which would be good in a 2” boka. Plus, each element would draw around 10 amps, safely below your 15 amp circuits. But you will need to run them on separate circuits.
ss
Oop's I meant 1000GPH,I ran a test with the coil before and after I installed it and I was getting a nice flow from the discharge tube,I do have 1/2"copper run from the pump all the way to the top to feed the coil and a 1/2" return back to the container .Maybe tomorrow I'll see if I can get a measure on the flow.The pump is an old fountain pump that I had laying around.
flat350
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Re: Will I have enough power

Post by flat350 »

zed255 wrote: Tue Jan 12, 2021 6:31 pm I found my 2" ran best around 1500-1800W, much over 2000W in the long run could flood. With that in mind I'd use at least a 3000W element on the 240V circuit to help with heat up. For auxiliary heat you can use the second element on 120V. You will want a power controller to throttle your heat input to the right level. Two 4500W (or 5500W) on 120V is an option.

Pack as much as you can, unpacked height is of little value. Just don't let the packing touch your slant plates or thermowell.

Nice neat coil winding. Probably helped having been a plumber.
I can probably get a 3000w element for nothing so I may go that route as suggested.I'm working on a controller so I can adjust things.

OK so I need about 3' of packing,thanks

That was my second try at a coil,tried at first with it filled with salt and boy that salt did not want to come out even with 150PSI air hitting it.First one looked good but the second try without the salt was much less of an headache and turned out nice,thanks
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still_stirrin
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Re: Will I have enough power

Post by still_stirrin »

flat350 wrote: Tue Jan 12, 2021 7:11 pmOop's I meant 1000GPH,I ran a test with the coil before and after I installed it and I was getting a nice flow from the discharge tube...
That’s still 16.7 gallons per minute. With only a 2 foot high “dead head” pressure, trying to move that much water through a 1/4” tube will still eat up all your pressure. Do you actually get any flow out of the condenser when it’s placed inside the column top? I would be surprised. It looks like your reflux condenser is a lot higher than 2 feet.

I hope it works for you.
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Yummyrum
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Re: Will I have enough power

Post by Yummyrum »

Very nice job . I agree with other posts that 2kw is a good match for a 2” reflux still when its running . More for heatup is handy .

36” will be just fine so long as you don’t push it too hard . Another foot would be better but not essential . Eitherway , you will be able to get close to azeo if you wanted .

That coil is a top job . It is way oversized for the job so you’ll never have issues there . Probably could have made it halve as long and spaced the coils and it still would have nailed the application . :thumbup:Might be a good strat to when you upgrade to a 3” :ebiggrin:
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Re: Will I have enough power

Post by StillerBoy »

From the picture, the column looks like it's all one piece..

If so, what packing are you intending to use, and how will you be packing and compressing the packing, and how will you know that the packing is position at the right level under the plates..

In other word, one piece column is not the best setup.. especially when requiring cleaning..

And I'm with ss on the issue of the pump and condenser length, and could use more spacing between coils..

Mars
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Re: Will I have enough power

Post by The Baker »

A bypass on the pump line is a good idea.
Sends excess water back to the tank/ whatever and is fully adjustable with a tap.

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flat350
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Re: Will I have enough power

Post by flat350 »

Ok so I'm going to do some modifications to it.
I'll ditch the pump and run it off household domestic water( it was something I had laying around and it didn't cost anything to try),ran the coil off the house today and much better flow.The pump flowed through the coil but probably 2GPH maybe.
I'll make another coil about 1/2 the length of the one I have and remove the corresponding amount of pipe off the top of the column to keep it oriented to the plates the correct distance.
That allows me to lengthen the packed part of the column to close to 48",my ceiling height is the limiting factor.
I'll swap out the 4500w elements for a single 3000w and run it on a controller.
Last edited by flat350 on Wed Jan 13, 2021 6:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
StillerBoy
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Re: Will I have enough power

Post by StillerBoy »

flat350 wrote: Wed Jan 13, 2021 1:10 pm The pump flowed through the coil but probably 2GPH maybe.
The water flow of a well constructed reflux condenser should be able to do 3L per minute at the very least.. 8L per hour is far from the mark and hope that the new coil you made has a flow within range mention..

Mars
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Re: Will I have enough power

Post by OtisT »

I agree with the others that say your top end of useful power for the 2” packed column will be below 2000w.

I have a similar RC coil made out of 1/4” copper in a 2” column. (About 11’ of copper tubing would 26 times, 10” tall). Mine just barely knocks down 5500w with a 4 lpm flow of cool city water. (Just over 1 gallon per minute.) 4 lpm happens to be the max flow I can get through that RC on city water pressure.

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flat350
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Re: Will I have enough power

Post by flat350 »

Ok,I remade the coil so it's only a 6" long 1/4" double coil,it flows a little over 6 Qt per minute on my domestic water running at 56 F. I added 2 triclamps to the top and the bottom of the column so it's removable and I now have 47" that can receive packing,ceiling height limited that. I swapped out the element to a single 240v 3000w one running off a controller to adjust it.Everything seems to work water and electric wise and I just need to make a hole near the bottom of the barrel and TIG on a SS 1/2 coupling for a drain.
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Re: Will I have enough power

Post by shadylane »

I'd recommend at least a 3/4" drain
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Re: Will I have enough power

Post by StillerBoy »

Good that you made some changes, and nice to hear that the RC can now have a flow rate of 8 qt per min..

Now I have a question concerning the bowl to which the column is attached to.. the bowl is held in place with a few screw around the perimeter of the bowl.. the question is.. is the area under the bowl on the keg cut opened to close to the same size as the bowl..

Mars
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Re: Will I have enough power

Post by OtisT »

StillerBoy wrote: Wed Jan 13, 2021 5:06 am From the picture, the column looks like it's all one piece..

If so, what packing are you intending to use, and how will you be packing and compressing the packing, and how will you know that the packing is position at the right level under the plates..

In other word, one piece column is not the best setup.. especially when requiring cleaning.
Flat said he was going for a cheep build. A cheep option to address the issues you raised is to make a packing tool. (Assuming he will be using rolled mesh)

The tool is a wood dowel as long as the column that has a cup hook screwed into one end. The hook is for gently hooking and removing each roll, one at a time. Do it right and your rolls stay in perfect shape, use after use. The other end of the stick is flat and is marked every 5” for the 5” wide rolls I use. I use those marks so I know when each roll is inserted far enough. The hook is also good for wrapping a rag around that end of the stick for cleaning the column.

Otis
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flat350
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Re: Will I have enough power

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StillerBoy wrote: Thu Jan 21, 2021 4:37 pm Good that you made some changes, and nice to hear that the RC can now have a flow rate of 8 qt per min..

Now I have a question concerning the bowl to which the column is attached to.. the bowl is held in place with a few screw around the perimeter of the bowl.. the question is.. is the area under the bowl on the keg cut opened to close to the same size as the bowl..

Mars
Yep the hole in the keg is the same size as the inside of the bowl,the rim is flat enough to allow a 1/2" gasket around the perimeter and the 8 1/4"x 20 SS bolts hold it nice and tight.
flat350
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Re: Will I have enough power

Post by flat350 »

OtisT wrote: Thu Jan 21, 2021 5:37 pm
StillerBoy wrote: Wed Jan 13, 2021 5:06 am From the picture, the column looks like it's all one piece..

If so, what packing are you intending to use, and how will you be packing and compressing the packing, and how will you know that the packing is position at the right level under the plates..

In other word, one piece column is not the best setup.. especially when requiring cleaning.
Flat said he was going for a cheep build. A cheep option to address the issues you raised is to make a packing tool. (Assuming he will be using rolled mesh)

The tool is a wood dowel as long as the column that has a cup hook screwed into one end. The hook is for gently hooking and removing each roll, one at a time. Do it right and your rolls stay in perfect shape, use after use. The other end of the stick is flat and is marked every 5” for the 5” wide rolls I use. I use those marks so I know when each roll is inserted far enough. The hook is also good for wrapping a rag around that end of the stick for cleaning the column.

Otis
That's similar to what i was going to do. My neighbor does work on some SS food processing equipment and had a ton of SS triclamps and he got me a set of copper ones to add to the column,so now it's removable for packing. I wasn't in the mood to try brazing SS to copper,I'm good at attaching like metals together,someday maybe I'll give it a little practice.
Last edited by flat350 on Fri Jan 22, 2021 6:34 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Will I have enough power

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flat350 wrote: Fri Jan 22, 2021 6:22 am Yep the hole in the keg is the same size as the inside of the bowl,the rim is flat enough to allow a 1/2" gasket around the perimeter and the 8 1/4"x 20 SS bolts hold it nice and tight.
That's good that the opening is the same size, otherwise pooling of distillate would occur..

As to the bolts holding, I'm sure they will, but that would not be my concern as much as leaking vapors.. there is considerable pressure that build in the boiler and column during a run in reflux mode..

Mars
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Re: Will I have enough power

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OtisT wrote: Thu Jan 21, 2021 5:37 pm Flat said he was going for a cheep build. A cheep option to address the issues you raised is to make a packing tool. (Assuming he will be using rolled mesh)
Yeah I understood that.. it just he will come to realize that it's a pain in the ass to load such a long column.. and furthermore a column of that length can not be properly loaded and packed especially if using scrubbies as packing material..

Mars
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flat350
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Re: Will I have enough power

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StillerBoy wrote: Fri Jan 22, 2021 6:31 am
flat350 wrote: Fri Jan 22, 2021 6:22 am Yep the hole in the keg is the same size as the inside of the bowl,the rim is flat enough to allow a 1/2" gasket around the perimeter and the 8 1/4"x 20 SS bolts hold it nice and tight.
That's good that the opening is the same size, otherwise pooling of distillate would occur..

As to the bolts holding, I'm sure they will, but that would not be my concern as much as leaking vapors.. there is considerable pressure that build in the boiler and column during a run in reflux mode..

Mars
I won't know until I run it but I don't think I'll have a problem with it leaking,it's got a good heavy gasket between and it is evenly clamped around the edge. It's really very secure and tight to the top of the keg.
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Re: Will I have enough power

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Gotta vent on the cap?
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Re: Will I have enough power

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Chauncey wrote: Fri Jan 22, 2021 5:02 pm Gotta vent on the cap?
Yep,the cap is cut away except for the areas where the 1/4" coil lines go through it,probably 60% of it is open to the atmosphere.
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Re: Will I have enough power

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Cool. Safety first.
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flat350
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Re: Will I have enough power

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Chauncey wrote: Sat Jan 23, 2021 9:37 am Cool. Safety first.
45 years as a residential/commercial plumber you understand pressure and temperature release.
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Re: Will I have enough power

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StillerBoy wrote: Fri Jan 22, 2021 6:31 am
there is considerable pressure that build in the boiler and column during a run in reflux mode..

Mars
I wouldn't call 0.1 psi considerable pressure :roll:
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Re: Will I have enough power

Post by The Baker »

I had a plumber once, thought water would run up hill.

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Re: Will I have enough power

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The Baker wrote: Sun Jan 24, 2021 8:57 am I had a plumber once, thought water would run up hill.

Geoff
It does with a pump.
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