Explain CCVM to me?

Vapor, Liquid or Cooling Management. Flutes, plates, etc.

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Toxxyc
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Explain CCVM to me?

Post by Toxxyc »

Hi guys,

So I'm new, obviously. Well, new-ish. I'm on my second still and someone mentioned CCVM in my build thread. I've seen the name before and know it works with a coil thing at the top of the riser/column, but never paid attention to it because I'm building mostly a pot still (whisky and rum).

However, the option is there (albeit not for right now), so here I am, asking how the hell it works (might want something like that for making higher proof and cleaner neutrals soon). Out of pure boredom I Googled it last night, and as little as I knew how it worked, it confused me even more.

As I have it, and hear me out:

It's essentially a column with a T-piece at the top. The one part goes to the lyne arm and the last part straight up. The part going straight up gets a coil condenser that is lowered into the riser, and depending on how deep you let it drop into the riser, you can control the amount of reflux in the column. If you let the coil down deep enough so it covers the lyne arm part of the T-piece, you're essentially in full reflux. If you lift it so it covers part of the lyne arm part, you're in partial reflux and it you lift it up so the lyne arm piece is open, you're letting all vapour through and distilling "faster".

That I seem to understand OK. What gets me though is how does it contain the vapours? I know we NEVER close up a boiler, EVER, and there should always be an escape route for gas. Fine, my coil is always open on the far end of the still, but it seems with the CCVM you have the top of the column open as well? This is what confuses me. What stops your precious alcohol vapours from simply passing by the cooling coil and escaping out of the top of the riser? All the plans I've seen (and also the way Jesse on Still It does his), is simply "open" at the top. Again, my confusion - what stops the vapours from simply skipping the whole shebang and going straight up and out?
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Re: Explain CCVM to me?

Post by Setsumi »

your reflux coil keep your alcohol and vapours in your still. for more info read DAD's thread.

https://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtop ... d#p7104768
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Re: Explain CCVM to me?

Post by Toxxyc »

OK so simply put - if you cool the coil enough, the vapours will not blow by and escape?
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Re: Explain CCVM to me?

Post by Saltbush Bill »

Correct
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Re: Explain CCVM to me?

Post by Setsumi »

Toxxyc wrote: Thu Mar 04, 2021 12:19 am OK so simply put - if you cool the coil enough, the vapours will not blow by and escape?
that is how reflux stills work. in LM and VM your RC will keep the vapours in the column. in CM you manage the cooling water to keep or release vapours.
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Toxxyc
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Re: Explain CCVM to me?

Post by Toxxyc »

Yes I'm quite aware of how a reflux column works, complete with the bubbler plates and everything, but a reflux column is still sealed at the top, which is why CCVM confused me.

Interesting nonetheless. I think I'll order an additional T-piece in the future so I can swap between pot and CCVM mode as needed. Seems simple enough to build a coil for that condenser.
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Re: Explain CCVM to me?

Post by Setsumi »

Toxxyc wrote: Thu Mar 04, 2021 12:42 am Yes I'm quite aware of how a reflux column works, complete with the bubbler plates and everything, but a reflux column is still sealed at the top, which is why CCVM confused me.

Interesting nonetheless. I think I'll order an additional T-piece in the future so I can swap between pot and CCVM mode as needed. Seems simple enough to build a coil for that condenser.
no that is not correct. you get different reflux heads. the one that you think is sealed is a CM volumn. it is NOT sealed it is open through the deflag reflux condener into the product condenser. VM an LM the take of is before the RC. CCVM is just a VM with the RC acting as a valve.
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Re: Explain CCVM to me?

Post by Toxxyc »

I meant it's "sealed" at the very top, there's not an opening at a top of a T-piece like with the CCVM design, or am I understanding it wrong again?
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Re: Explain CCVM to me?

Post by Setsumi »

can you post a picture of what you refer to as reflux still. that might help explaining.
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Re: Explain CCVM to me?

Post by jonnys_spirit »

Here’s a good article to reference:

https://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtop ... =1&t=46605
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Re: Explain CCVM to me?

Post by Saltbush Bill »

You are understanding it wrong ...reflux stills like Bokas which are LM stills have to be open at the top or they become a bomb, they have a needle valve that regulates the product take off, that valve is fully closed when they are in full reflux. If they where not open to atmosphere at the top of the column pressure would build and BOOM!
You will be a lot less confused if you don't lump plated columns in with reflux stills .......they are a different thing again.
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Re: Explain CCVM to me?

Post by Berserk »

Toxxyc wrote: Thu Mar 04, 2021 1:46 am I meant it's "sealed" at the very top, there's not an opening at a top of a T-piece like with the CCVM design, or am I understanding it wrong again?
There is. If you look at plans for VMs or LMs they are either completely open att the top or at the very least there's a vent hole there. This is a safety precaution since both LM and VM stills can completely shut off the offtake, and if there wasn't a vent hole they would become pressurized and eventually explode.

CMs don't require a vent hole since they can't be completely shut off.
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Re: Explain CCVM to me?

Post by Yummyrum »

Saltbush Bill wrote: Thu Mar 04, 2021 2:17 am reflux stills like Bokas which are LM stills have to be open at the top or they become a bomb, they have a needle valve that regulates the product take off, that valve is fully closed when they are in full reflux. If they where not open to atmosphere at the top of the column pressure would build and BOOM!
Berserk wrote: Thu Mar 04, 2021 2:23 am This is a safety precaution since both LM and VM stills can completely shut off the offtake, and if there wasn't a vent hole they would become pressurized and eventually explode.
OK .. I’m going to elaborate ... hopefully . :ewink:
The vent is as Berserk said , “ a Safety precaution”

In a perfectly working LM or VM ... or CCVM for that matter , there will be no pressure buildup . They are not a bomb .

The Reflux condenser will condenses every thing that reaches it that the boiler Produces . All the expansion of liquid to vapour is condensed back to liquid and it falls back down as reflux . Nothing will pass the Reflux condenser . There is no pressure buildup . All pressure created in the boiler is depressurised by the reflux condenser . :thumbup:


But the world is not perfect . If the Reflux condenser cannot fully condense all the vapour that reaches it ( due to perhaps insufficient coolant supply or excessive boiler power ) , then vapour , which equals pressure , will bypass the Reflux condenser and create the potential Bomb .... the reason why the top of all LM and VM ... and CCVMs are vented .... its a safety precaution .

And it should always be there .
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Re: Explain CCVM to me?

Post by Saltbush Bill »

Correct Yummy very well explained.......no pressure until something goes wrong.
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Re: Explain CCVM to me?

Post by Toxxyc »

Thanks gents. It makes sense to me now!
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Re: Explain CCVM to me?

Post by Deplorable »

Think of it like the weather. You're making cold "dry" air over the top of hot "humid" air rising in the column, the rising warm vapors meet the cold air, or coil, and condense and fall as "rain" back down the column. You control the take off by raising and lowering the cold "low pressure zone."
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Re: Explain CCVM to me?

Post by Setsumi »

Saltbush Bill wrote: Thu Mar 04, 2021 2:17 am You will be a lot less confused if you don't lump plated columns in with reflux stills .......they are a different thing again.
if you manage reflux there is no difference between a flute or a packed column. my flutes run CCVM RC's. yes the product is different than on my CCVM packed column but in terms of reflux management it is the same. likewise the guys that run LM on their flutes.
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Re: Explain CCVM to me?

Post by Saltbush Bill »

Setsumi wrote: Thu Mar 04, 2021 7:42 am if you manage reflux there is no difference between a flute or a packed column.
True, in theory they are the same, a type of reflux still, but lumping flutes/ bubblers/ plated columns in with all other reflux stills just blurs the lines and adds to the overall confusion.....most reflux stills are run to try to a achieve high abv Vodka / neutral type products........plated columns on a hobby scale are not normally used for that purpose.
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Re: Explain CCVM to me?

Post by fzbwfk9r »

as long as there is a VENT of some sort that can NEVER be closed, then the RC top can be capped/sealed.

after hours and hours and hours of reading here et al, I read that the still SHALL be vented in some way for excess pressure to release

I'll add to this:
My understanding is the pressure release/vent SHALL be open to the atmosphere, and NOT a valve of any kind. Even a marble on top of a vent hole builds pressure some what, and until "I" know what I'm doing, I won't even put a marble there!
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Re: Explain CCVM to me?

Post by Setsumi »

you really do not need a marble on a vent hole. bit you have to ensure your reflux condenser can knock all vapours down.
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Re: Explain CCVM to me?

Post by Saltbush Bill »

As Setsumi has said the marble will do nothing at all.. its only purpose would be to keep spiders from living in your still.
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