Fine tuning set up

Vapor, Liquid or Cooling Management. Flutes, plates, etc.

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IMALOSERSCUMBAG
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Fine tuning set up

Post by IMALOSERSCUMBAG »

I have a 26 gallon boiler, (4) 4" dia. sections into dephlegmator reduced to a 2 1/2" shotgun condenser out a parrot. I use a 5,000 w element to heat.

I have been trying different things to get better efficiency and think I may be making some errors. Any input would be appreciated. I'll explain my typical run.

Fill the boiler 20 or so gallons and turn on heat full until I get to about 90d C and crank down until the temp stabilizes just under 100d C. I try to stay under 100 because that's where water boils. The water to the dephlegmator and shotgun is on. I think my first issue is my water is actually to cold. I try to maintain it at (50-55F) 10-12d C.

I will dial the water to the dephlegmator until the internal vapor temp hits 80d C. And maintain 80d C as much as possible. Depending on what I'm running I get a fast drip or steady stream (pencil lead).

This process tends to take anywhere from 10-14 hours. From my reading that seems too long. Thoughts to what I'm doing wrong:

Should the water in the dephlegmator and shotgun be higher?
Should I allow the vapor coming out of the dephlegmator to go higher?
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Re: Fine tuning set up

Post by StillerBoy »

What are using the dephlegmator on.. a flute or a CM..

And what runs are you talking about.. a stripping run or a spirit..

Mars
Last edited by StillerBoy on Thu Mar 04, 2021 6:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Fine tuning set up

Post by acfixer69 »

First of all 4" dia. is not enough info to tell what you are running. Is it plate sections? Is it a packed VM/CM? How many plates? How tall is packed section? Power Controller or PID since you mentioned controlling boiler temp. Let's answer them then guys with that type of experence can work you thru the time and temps issues.
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Re: Fine tuning set up

Post by Saltbush Bill »

IMALOSERSCUMBAG wrote: Thu Mar 04, 2021 8:39 am Thoughts to what I'm doing wrong:
Your trying to run a still by looking at thermometers and temperatures.....thats a sure way to go wrong.
It seems from your post that you think you have control over your boiler temperature ......you can not and will not be able do that.
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Re: Fine tuning set up

Post by MartinCash »

If you're using a PID then there's your first easy fix: ditch it.
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Re: Fine tuning set up

Post by IMALOSERSCUMBAG »

Thanks for the feedback. To answer the questions:

I am using a flute with copper downcomer plates in the sections. When I make rum and whiskey I use two plates in the column. Right now I have (4) sections that make for a 2' tall column from boiler to dephlegmator.

My cooling for the dephlegmator is cold water in the top and out the bottom. Am I wrong in saying this is the CM system? The vapor coming out of the dephlegmator is regulated based on the cooling of the tubes.

I don't do a stripping run just a spirit run. I am getting great results flavor wise. It seems to take a long time to get a run complete. My understanding is that a stripping run is not necessary with a flute column.

I'm using the temperatures as a guide. I have found that at certain temps different things happen so I shoot to maintain those temps and use them as a guide. When it comes down to it, I make my cuts based on what I'm tasting and smelling. Is there a better way?

I have been reading this weekend on the PID and power controller and the effects of boiler temps. I don't use a PID for the boiler, it's a power controller. Defiantly not a thermodynamics guy so it's taking some time to digest. I use the power controller to control the power to the heating element to maintain as consistent temp. What would be a better way to control temps? During runs I do notice the temp inside the boiler does fluctuate and I am adjusting the power to the heating element to maintain a consistent temp.

I do use a PID to control the temp of my cooling water. I have a 160 gallon bulk tank that I use to hold my cooling water. A bit overkill but it was free from a farmer buddy. I try to maintain the cooling water at a consistent temp. From my reading it appears I may be keeping the water too cool. That the 60 degree F (16 degree C) is a better temp?

Again, I really appreciate everyone's help. I'm not trying to become a master today, but do want to eventually get there.
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Re: Fine tuning set up

Post by Setsumi »

you use a power controller on the boiler, yet you regulate boiler temprature. if that is what you do you should start a new way. use your power controller to regulate output speed.
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Re: Fine tuning set up

Post by IMALOSERSCUMBAG »

Setsumi wrote: Mon Mar 08, 2021 8:36 am you use a power controller on the boiler, yet you regulate boiler temperature. if that is what you do you should start a new way. use your power controller to regulate output speed.
I'm having some confusion on this. I'm looking for a good explanation on what the relationship of boiler and dephlegmator because it seems as though my interpretation is incorrect.

Power going into the boiler heats the liquid. Increase power we get an increase in temp and therefore more vapor. More vapor leads to an increased flow. That increase in flow pulls more water and therefore the ABV % goes down.

The propose of the dephlegmator is to control the vapor passing though to the condenser. Therefore sending the water and other non ethanol vapors back down. I could have my boiler running at 100 degrees C, essentially boiling water temp but controlling output from the dephlegmator.
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Re: Fine tuning set up

Post by Setsumi »

you want your boiler to BOIL regardless of temprature. when you are at boil you need to regulate the rate of boil. for this you need a power controller if running electric. this regulate the amount of vapour and vapour speed. then you regulate reflux with your reflux condenser. in CM style you need to get your vapour to bypass the dephlegmator. so you turn water flow down and adjust power and water on production speed not temprature. you may take a temprature reading in your boiler or in your vapour and you may decide on this that a run is over BUT you should not distill based on temprature.

the vapour will contain many different elements. you need reflux and the correct take off speed AND make cuts. running a boiler temp of 100dC and reflux will not send the bad to the boiler, rather you will smear heads and tails like realy bad.

if you have a power controller try it this way for a start. by no means do i run CM but i know it will work. from there you can tweak a bit.
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Re: Fine tuning set up

Post by StillerBoy »

IMALOSERSCUMBAG wrote: Mon Mar 08, 2021 9:07 am I'm looking for a good explanation on what the relationship of boiler and dephlegmator because it seems as though my interpretation is incorrect.
The amount of vapor produced are the result of managing power input, not by temperature reading.. the amount of vapors refluxed are the results of managing water flow..

With a CM and dephlegmator as a RC, the operation is similar to operating a plated column (flute).. the difference is that in a CM, the packing causes the refluxing, whereas in a flute, the refluxing occurs using plates, the more plated used the more refluxing occur.. similar in a CM, the longer the column packed with packing material the more refluxing is taking place..

In both of the model, the amount of refluxing taking place is controlled by the resistance created by the dephlegmator ability to stop vapor from moving through it.. more water flow (and the colder the water is the better) through the dephlegmator, less vapors will be allow to pass, and less water flow to the dephlegmator, more vapors will be allow to pass..

The idea is to fine the balance between the power used, in relation to the packing used or plates, and the ability of the dephlegmator to stop the vapor flow through.. it's also called "dialing in the unit"..

The take off rate is based on the purity wanted and maintaining the balance of reflux action..

Mars
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Re: Fine tuning set up

Post by Setsumi »

StillerBoy wrote: Mon Mar 08, 2021 11:23 am
IMALOSERSCUMBAG wrote: Mon Mar 08, 2021 9:07 am I'm looking for a good explanation on what the relationship of boiler and dephlegmator because it seems as though my interpretation is incorrect.
The amount of vapor produced are the result of managing power input, not by temperature reading.. the amount of vapors refluxed are the results of managing water flow..

With a CM and dephlegmator as a RC, the operation is similar to operating a plated column (flute).. the difference is that in a CM, the packing causes the refluxing, whereas in a flute, the refluxing occurs using plates, the more plated used the more refluxing occur.. similar in a CM, the longer the column packed with packing material the more refluxing is taking place..

In both of the model, the amount of refluxing taking place is controlled by the resistance created by the dephlegmator ability to stop vapor from moving through it.. more water flow (and the colder the water is the better) through the dephlegmator, less vapors will be allow to pass, and less water flow to the dephlegmator, more vapors will be allow to pass..

The idea is to fine the balance between the power used, in relation to the packing used or plates, and the ability of the dephlegmator to stop the vapor flow through.. it's also called "dialing in the unit"..

The take off rate is based on the purity wanted and maintaining the balance of reflux action..

Mars
i agree with your explanation. BUT recently there is quite a lot of reference that a flute runs like CM. this is not true. the correct statement should be a CM reflux on a paked column or flute runs mostly the same. a flute does not need to be a CM. my flutes have CCVM heads. there are some flutes with LM heads. a flute does produce a different product than a packed column but it does not equate to CM by default. yes original it was built with a CM head but the reflux management does not define a flute, the plates does.
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Re: Fine tuning set up

Post by StillerBoy »

Setsumi wrote: Mon Mar 08, 2021 12:21 pm recently there is quite a lot of reference that a flute runs like CM. this is not true.
All reflux column operate on the same principal, no matter what the style is called..

They all work using managing power input (to create vapors), packing material or plates(to create refluxing), and a reflux condenser (to cool down the vapors) of some design..

They all produce vapors which in turn are cooled down by a reflux condenser and travel back down through the packing material back to the boiler.. the refluxing takes place during the cycle of the up going hot vapors coming in contact with the cooled distillate, thereby being reheated again and moved up the column to be re-cooled again and the cycle begin all over..

The rate of refluxing will vary with different packing material used, how well the material is packable, number of plates used, the ability to control the power usage, and the ability of RC to knock down the up coming vapors..

Knowing how to balance them is the trick in reflluxing, as each unit or style will required some different adjustment, but the principal is the same for all style..

Once the principal of refluxing is understand, then it become a learning curve of how to balance those activities for the finished product wanted.. and that become a little difficult in applying..

Mars
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Re: Fine tuning set up

Post by Setsumi »

StillerBoy wrote: Mon Mar 08, 2021 6:53 pm
Setsumi wrote: Mon Mar 08, 2021 12:21 pm recently there is quite a lot of reference that a flute runs like CM. this is not true.
All reflux column operate on the same principal, no matter what the style is called..

They all work using managing power input (to create vapors), packing material or plates(to create refluxing), and a reflux condenser (to cool down the vapors) of some design..

They all produce vapors which in turn are cooled down by a reflux condenser and travel back down through the packing material back to the boiler.. the refluxing takes place during the cycle of the up going hot vapors coming in contact with the cooled distillate, thereby being reheated again and moved up the column to be re-cooled again and the cycle begin all over..

The rate of refluxing will vary with different packing material used, how well the material is packable, number of plates used, the ability to control the power usage, and the ability of RC to knock down the up coming vapors..

Knowing how to balance them is the trick in reflluxing, as each unit or style will required some different adjustment, but the principal is the same for all style..

Once the principal of refluxing is understand, then it become a learning curve of how to balance those activities for the finished product wanted.. and that become a little difficult in applying..

Mars
i believe you missunderstood my post. a flute is not by default a CM. there are other choices.
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Re: Fine tuning set up

Post by MartinCash »

A key thing to get your head around is that you cannot control the temperature in the boiler. You can heat its contents until they come to a boil, and then no matter how much more power you apply, the temperature will remain the same (a boiling liquid cannot heat beyond its boiling point), but you will control the rate of boil, and therefore how quickly the liquid turns to vapour. The more vapour you produce, the more cooling water it will take to condense it (and this is in proportion to the extra heat you needed to produce all the extra vapour in the first place).
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Re: Fine tuning set up

Post by IMALOSERSCUMBAG »

You guys have been very helpful. If I'm understanding correctly:

The temp in the boiler is not very relevant as the boiling point is constantly changing due to the make up of the contents. What I want is a steady vapor stream up the column. Which is done by controlling the power into the boiler thus affecting the rate of boil.

The dephlegmator is controlling reflux by the water flow and temp of water through the unit.

I want to be into equilibrium which is where the sight glasses help. I want to see a good boil on top of the copper plates. I'm not quite sure what I should be looking for as far as the amount of liquid I see though the sight glass? Half way up the downcomer, all the way?

A good rate of flow would be that of a pencil lead out the parrot. I know parrots smear so I don't use the parrot until I know I'm in the hearts and keep a close eye on my % coming out. Personally I don't mind getting into the tails a bit because I like the flavors that come towards the end of the hearts/start of tails.

I'm running this afternoon so I really appreciate the advise.
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Re: Fine tuning set up

Post by MartinCash »

Good luck! It takes a few goes to get a more intuitive understanding of all the things going on, so don't be too worried it it seems a lot to remember at the start.
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Re: Fine tuning set up

Post by Yummyrum »

On a 4” plated still ( Flute if you prefer) , taking off product @ around 2.5l/h seems to be the typical rate . Some like it a little slower , some push it to 3l/h.

How hard you run the boiler will effect flavour .
You need enough power to keep the plates loaded and bubbling nicely .

You can increase power up and the plate activity will increase . At the same time , the output rate will increase . If you readjust deflag to maintain the same rate , the product will be cleaner tasting because there is more reflux action happening .

Conversely, reducing boiler power and readjusting deflag for same output rate will result in more flavour due to less reflux action .

Now , when you increase power too high , one of to things will happen depending on plate design ,
1) it will flood ( the level in the sight glasses will rise dramatically )
2) tails will suddenly pull through and your product will go from very clean to crap due to entrainment .

3kw seems to be the typical upper power level on a 4” plated still . Again some can squeeze a bit higher but mist are running just under .
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Re: Fine tuning set up

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IMALOSERSCUMBAG wrote: Wed Mar 10, 2021 8:53 am I want to be into equilibrium which is where the sight glasses help. I want to see a good boil on top of the copper plates. I'm not quite sure what I should be looking for as far as the amount of liquid I see though the sight glass? Half way up the downcomer, all the way?
The amount that the plates will hold a stable liquid level will depend on the amount power used to generating vapors and the ability of RC to stop the vapors from going through..

The amount of power to use can be guaged by the flooding of the plates over powering the downcomer.. that will be visible by the amount of the liquid raising above the downcomer.. when that occurs, reduce power just a little bit, and give it a minute or so, and if still over powering, and if so then cut down on power some more, untill the plates stablize.. notes should be taken so that one has a reference point for the next run..

As to take off rate, it become a balance between the amount of power used and the stability of the plates not flooding or drying out ( losing their liquid).. that why flute have slight glass.. the manage the activity from a visible point..

Mars
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Re: Fine tuning set up

Post by IMALOSERSCUMBAG »

I ran yesterday taking into account everyone's comments. What a difference. I still have quit a bit to learn but you guys pushed me into a new level.
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Re: Fine tuning set up

Post by StillerBoy »

Congratulation...

There's much to learn yet, but the basic are now starting to have meaning..

The finer details will come with time and practice which will become experience.. experience can not be learn from reading but only from doing..

Enjoy your newly found level..

Mars
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