Many questions about bubble plates

Vapor, Liquid or Cooling Management. Flutes, plates, etc.

Moderator: Site Moderator

User avatar
Demy
Master of Distillation
Posts: 3084
Joined: Fri Sep 04, 2020 1:45 pm

Many questions about bubble plates

Post by Demy »

For now I'm collecting information, I would like to evaluate the construction of bubble plates, so I would have many questions.
First of all, are there problems by building the main stainless steel dish? Are there any problems welding the plates directly to the column? I won't use Tri-Clamp, so I have to find adaptations. Thank you all in advance.
User avatar
Saltbush Bill
Site Mod
Posts: 9675
Joined: Thu Mar 17, 2011 2:13 am
Location: Northern NSW Australia

Re: Many questions about bubble plates

Post by Saltbush Bill »

Are you saying that you want to make the plates them selfs from stainless.?
User avatar
zed255
Distiller
Posts: 1021
Joined: Thu Jan 05, 2017 7:06 pm
Location: Ontario, Canada

Re: Many questions about bubble plates

Post by zed255 »

Demy, before the relative proliferation of easy to source Tri-Clamp solutions, the plates were assembled on a rod as a 'tree' and inserted into the column together. This required a very close fit of the plates and column and maybe even a little creativity in producing a good seal, but could be done.
----------
Zed

When the Student is ready, the Master will appear.
If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough.
User avatar
Demy
Master of Distillation
Posts: 3084
Joined: Fri Sep 04, 2020 1:45 pm

Re: Many questions about bubble plates

Post by Demy »

I already saw that tree system, I wondered if there were problems welding every single plate in a permanent position, I read that someone who uses "the tree" then left them fixed them. The plateswould have the base in stainless steel sheet and the copper bubbles. After you need your help with the proportions of the measures. The column should be 3 "for 4 plates mainly because I want to try the plates for flavored spirits. I'm collecting ideas.
User avatar
Yummyrum
Global moderator
Posts: 7653
Joined: Sat Jul 06, 2013 2:23 am
Location: Fraser Coast QLD Aussie

Re: Many questions about bubble plates

Post by Yummyrum »

You could weld them in . If its a copper one you can solder them in quite easily , Olddog did this in his MK11 Flute .

Only problem is once you welded them in , can’t access them for cleaning or modification . Having said that , I’ve neither cleaned or modified mine since I made it .

Shady had an interesting plate sealing pic on here recently . It used a ring under the plate with a groove in it and he wrapped string /twine around the groove so when the plate was slid in it sealed to the wall .
User avatar
Demy
Master of Distillation
Posts: 3084
Joined: Fri Sep 04, 2020 1:45 pm

Re: Many questions about bubble plates

Post by Demy »

Yummyrum wrote: Fri Mar 05, 2021 1:50 pm You could weld them in . If its a copper one you can solder them in quite easily , Olddog did this in his MK11 Flute .

Only problem is once you welded them in , can’t access them for cleaning or modification . Having said that , I’ve neither cleaned or modified mine since I made it .

Shady had an interesting plate sealing pic on here recently . It used a ring under the plate with a groove in it and he wrapped string /twine around the groove so when the plate was slid in it sealed to the wall .
Thanks Yummi, I remembered someone who had something like that. Now I have other questions in particular. I saw the classic designs and "Pro-Cup" style design. I would like the single bubble but I don't know if I can find a suitable size tube, so I ask you all: 25 mm rise and upper 30 mm hood is too small for a 3 "?
User avatar
Yummyrum
Global moderator
Posts: 7653
Joined: Sat Jul 06, 2013 2:23 am
Location: Fraser Coast QLD Aussie

Re: Many questions about bubble plates

Post by Yummyrum »

User avatar
hypnopooper
Bootlegger
Posts: 119
Joined: Mon Jul 23, 2012 4:45 pm

Re: Many questions about bubble plates

Post by hypnopooper »

I built a 6" copper bubble plate column that I permanently soldered to the bubble plates to the copper walls of the column. For all grain based mashes,,,,after several barley based mashes, I noticed my bubble caps and plates developed a greasy film layer on them. For cleaning, I just removed the bubble caps, soaked them in a hot citric acid bath and gave them a quick scrub then rinsed them off. For the actual column, I made a hot citric acid solution and clamped an end plated on the column and filled her up for an hour or so with the bubble caps removed. After cleaning the column, I rinse to neurtalize the acids on the copper then add the bubble caps back into the column. Good to go.
User avatar
Demy
Master of Distillation
Posts: 3084
Joined: Fri Sep 04, 2020 1:45 pm

Re: Many questions about bubble plates

Post by Demy »

Yummyrum wrote: Fri Mar 05, 2021 2:20 pm I found Shadys idea https://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtop ... 8#p7652965
Thank you very much, I seem to have seen it even from other parts. Now my problem is the caps (correct sizing).
User avatar
Demy
Master of Distillation
Posts: 3084
Joined: Fri Sep 04, 2020 1:45 pm

Re: Many questions about bubble plates

Post by Demy »

My indecision is whether to try to imitate the "pro-caps" or maintain a classic design. I don't care about speed. I can easily find 3/4 ", 1/2" tubes, so I have a piece of 1.5 "stainless steel tube. I could locally find 25 mm and 30 mm tubes, but they are chromed copper, so I think that They are not suitable. Design tips to choose from?
User avatar
shadylane
Master of Distillation
Posts: 10363
Joined: Sat Oct 27, 2007 11:54 pm
Location: Hiding In the Boiler room of the Insane asylum

Re: Many questions about bubble plates

Post by shadylane »

Demy wrote: Fri Mar 05, 2021 2:14 pm . Now I have other questions in particular. I saw the classic designs and "Pro-Cup" style design. I would like the single bubble but I don't know if I can find a suitable size tube, so I ask you all: 25 mm rise and upper 30 mm hood is too small for a 3 "?
I'm thinking a single 30mm cap would be too small for a 3" column.
Here's some 4" plates I made from scrap, maybe you can find an idea or two.

https://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtop ... 50&t=60486
User avatar
Demy
Master of Distillation
Posts: 3084
Joined: Fri Sep 04, 2020 1:45 pm

Re: Many questions about bubble plates

Post by Demy »

shadylane wrote: Fri Mar 05, 2021 2:57 pm
Demy wrote: Fri Mar 05, 2021 2:14 pm . Now I have other questions in particular. I saw the classic designs and "Pro-Cup" style design. I would like the single bubble but I don't know if I can find a suitable size tube, so I ask you all: 25 mm rise and upper 30 mm hood is too small for a 3 "?
I'm thinking a single 30mm cap would be too small for a 3" column.
Here's some 4" plates I made from scrap, maybe you can find an idea or two.

https://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtop ... 50&t=60486
This is a good post, never seen. A question about the single bubble with the central downcomer (which I like), there is not too much accumulation of liquid on the plate or maybe it's good?
User avatar
LWTCS
Site Mod
Posts: 12836
Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2009 6:04 pm
Location: North Palm Beach

Re: Many questions about bubble plates

Post by LWTCS »

20200701_110633.jpg
Re: ProCaps
The originals fit 3 on a 4" (100 mm) column diameter.
The larger version fit 3 on a 12" column.

The scale is fairly linear.

Always best to have more drain capacity than vapor through put. Speed is a byproduct to be sure. But you'll also get more compliant behavior earlier. Basically better hydraulics.
Plate spacing matters when speed is a goal.

Not at all selling. Sharing is all. Build away.
Trample the injured and hurdle the dead.
Setsumi
Distiller
Posts: 1371
Joined: Tue Sep 07, 2010 10:23 pm
Location: Central South Africa

Re: Many questions about bubble plates

Post by Setsumi »

for my first flute i made perforated plates. for one of my twins ProCaps. i prefer perforated plates. by nature they drain and they are easier to build.
My first flute
My press
My twins
My controller
My wife tells me I fell from heaven covered in white. Why did they let me fall?
User avatar
Demy
Master of Distillation
Posts: 3084
Joined: Fri Sep 04, 2020 1:45 pm

Re: Many questions about bubble plates

Post by Demy »

Thank you all guys. I read a post (https://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtop ... 17&t=78362) where the central drain was subject to disturbance from the upper plate so an umbrella was made to solve the problem. For this, I was thinking of a single bubble but with downcomer aside. Thoughts about this? Disadvantages?
procup.png
procup.png (6.02 KiB) Viewed 2212 times
Setsumi
Distiller
Posts: 1371
Joined: Tue Sep 07, 2010 10:23 pm
Location: Central South Africa

Re: Many questions about bubble plates

Post by Setsumi »

Demy wrote: Sat Mar 06, 2021 1:13 am Thank you all guys. I read a post (https://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtop ... 17&t=78362) where the central drain was subject to disturbance from the upper plate so an umbrella was made to solve the problem. For this, I was thinking of a single bubble but with downcomer aside. Thoughts about this? Disadvantages?procup.png
Larry can comment better but a separate downcommer use plate space. giving less space for plate action. if you look at the size of a 3" plate against a 4" it will matter on a 3".

there are a lot of guys who have done procap styles. i remember JackC did some not so long ago.
My first flute
My press
My twins
My controller
My wife tells me I fell from heaven covered in white. Why did they let me fall?
User avatar
Demy
Master of Distillation
Posts: 3084
Joined: Fri Sep 04, 2020 1:45 pm

Re: Many questions about bubble plates

Post by Demy »

Setsumi wrote: Sat Mar 06, 2021 8:58 pm
Demy wrote: Sat Mar 06, 2021 1:13 am Thank you all guys. I read a post (https://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtop ... 17&t=78362) where the central drain was subject to disturbance from the upper plate so an umbrella was made to solve the problem. For this, I was thinking of a single bubble but with downcomer aside. Thoughts about this? Disadvantages?procup.png
Larry can comment better but a separate downcommer use plate space. giving less space for plate action. if you look at the size of a 3" plate against a 4" it will matter on a 3".

there are a lot of guys who have done procap styles. i remember JackC did some not so long ago.
Thank you very much, I'm trying to find the post, if you have a link it will be useful. I'm trying to understand the sizing of all the spaces, I found a pro-cup with measurements but I don't know if they are correct (Aliexpress). I believe that perhaps slightly move the pro-Cup compared to the center (their offset) it is possible to avoid interference between the plates.
Change: it seems that the post you are referring to be the same as my link ....
Setsumi
Distiller
Posts: 1371
Joined: Tue Sep 07, 2010 10:23 pm
Location: Central South Africa

Re: Many questions about bubble plates

Post by Setsumi »

my caps on a 4" or 98mm ID is a slip coupler for 65mm pipe. riser is 42mm and downcommer is 22mm. the cap should be 62mm to be about the same dimensions as on a 3" from SD, think it was called Dash just rezise it on the area of the plate.

https://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtop ... 17&t=78362
My first flute
My press
My twins
My controller
My wife tells me I fell from heaven covered in white. Why did they let me fall?
User avatar
Demy
Master of Distillation
Posts: 3084
Joined: Fri Sep 04, 2020 1:45 pm

Re: Many questions about bubble plates

Post by Demy »

caps space.png
caps space.png (9.48 KiB) Viewed 2108 times
I made a small design based on the tubes I have at home and I can find locally, could it work? In red the measures (with letters) that I cannot establish. I would use the column very calmly, I don't look for speed.
User avatar
shadylane
Master of Distillation
Posts: 10363
Joined: Sat Oct 27, 2007 11:54 pm
Location: Hiding In the Boiler room of the Insane asylum

Re: Many questions about bubble plates

Post by shadylane »

The most important measurement is having the cup depth at least 1.5 times the plate depth.
cup depth.png
User avatar
Demy
Master of Distillation
Posts: 3084
Joined: Fri Sep 04, 2020 1:45 pm

Re: Many questions about bubble plates

Post by Demy »

shadylane wrote: Sun Mar 07, 2021 2:33 pm The most important measurement is having the cup depth at least 1.5 times the plate depth.

cup depth.png
Thank you very much Shady, this helps me a lot. So if the liquid depth is 20mm the depth of the cup will be 30mm minimum, did I understand correctly? Feel free to give more sizing advice.
User avatar
shadylane
Master of Distillation
Posts: 10363
Joined: Sat Oct 27, 2007 11:54 pm
Location: Hiding In the Boiler room of the Insane asylum

Re: Many questions about bubble plates

Post by shadylane »

That's correct.
On my 4" plates, also have 20mm of liquid on the plates and the cups are 40mm deep.
A is 15mm
B is 20mm
C is around 7mm

The downcomer is 3/4" 19ish mm ID
The upcomer is around 30ish mm
DSCF0284.JPG
DSCF0285.JPG
DSCF0286.JPG
DSCF0287.JPG
Setsumi
Distiller
Posts: 1371
Joined: Tue Sep 07, 2010 10:23 pm
Location: Central South Africa

Re: Many questions about bubble plates

Post by Setsumi »

make D same as the gap 6 x 3. Shady's measurements is correct.
My first flute
My press
My twins
My controller
My wife tells me I fell from heaven covered in white. Why did they let me fall?
User avatar
Demy
Master of Distillation
Posts: 3084
Joined: Fri Sep 04, 2020 1:45 pm

Re: Many questions about bubble plates

Post by Demy »

Thank you very much Shadylane and Setsumi, I didn't know how to set up correctly, I searched in all posts to get an idea, you gave me a big hand.
A question: How does the liquid bed influence the results? What is the minimum bed size? I ask this because they generally perform small lots and therefore could affect the choice.
User avatar
LWTCS
Site Mod
Posts: 12836
Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2009 6:04 pm
Location: North Palm Beach

Re: Many questions about bubble plates

Post by LWTCS »

Demy wrote: Mon Mar 08, 2021 4:53 am Thank you very much Shadylane and Setsumi, I didn't know how to set up correctly, I searched in all posts to get an idea, you gave me a big hand.
A question: How does the liquid bed influence the results? What is the minimum bed size? I ask this because they generally perform small lots and therefore could affect the choice.
The deeper liquid bed can affect flavor by trapping (good and bad) flavors. Some would say that the deeper liquid bed promotes smearing.
A little judicious smearing is tolerable with whiskey and brandy. Not so much with vodkas.

If the spacings between the plates is not sized adequately, the deeper liquid bed increases pressure and can promote bad hydraulic behavior at faster collection speeds.
Trample the injured and hurdle the dead.
Setsumi
Distiller
Posts: 1371
Joined: Tue Sep 07, 2010 10:23 pm
Location: Central South Africa

Re: Many questions about bubble plates

Post by Setsumi »

i will go for a smaller liquid bed, say 15mm to 18mm. but rather 15mm. Larry is correct on plate spacing. even in 3" go for >4". i will not do a full 5" but 110mm to 120mm works for me but i run slow.
My first flute
My press
My twins
My controller
My wife tells me I fell from heaven covered in white. Why did they let me fall?
User avatar
Demy
Master of Distillation
Posts: 3084
Joined: Fri Sep 04, 2020 1:45 pm

Re: Many questions about bubble plates

Post by Demy »

LWTCS wrote: Mon Mar 08, 2021 9:52 am
Demy wrote: Mon Mar 08, 2021 4:53 am Thank you very much Shadylane and Setsumi, I didn't know how to set up correctly, I searched in all posts to get an idea, you gave me a big hand.
A question: How does the liquid bed influence the results? What is the minimum bed size? I ask this because they generally perform small lots and therefore could affect the choice.
The deeper liquid bed can affect flavor by trapping (good and bad) flavors. Some would say that the deeper liquid bed promotes smearing.
A little judicious smearing is tolerable with whiskey and brandy. Not so much with vodkas.

If the spacings between the plates is not sized adequately, the deeper liquid bed increases pressure and can promote bad hydraulic behavior at faster collection speeds.
Thank you, this is very important to me. In my case I run small lots with tranquility (I don't look for speed but quality) What minimum size of the bed would you recommend? It will only be used for aromatic products on a CCVM head, I would like to limit the smudging to the maximum maintaining some aroma (especially on fruit).
User avatar
Demy
Master of Distillation
Posts: 3084
Joined: Fri Sep 04, 2020 1:45 pm

Re: Many questions about bubble plates

Post by Demy »

Setsumi wrote: Mon Mar 08, 2021 10:15 am i will go for a smaller liquid bed, say 15mm to 18mm. but rather 15mm. Larry is correct on plate spacing. even in 3" go for >4". i will not do a full 5" but 110mm to 120mm works for me but i run slow.
Yes, I thought of such a thing. I wonder if the liquid bed is lowered, should we lower the teeth of the upper cap (I mean the 3x6mm measure)?
User avatar
LWTCS
Site Mod
Posts: 12836
Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2009 6:04 pm
Location: North Palm Beach

Re: Many questions about bubble plates

Post by LWTCS »

As I recall, we (SD) ultimately settled on a 4mm x 4 mm spacing for tooth. I can confirm that in the morning. I don't have that fully committed to my memory.
You'll definitely want that opening(s) to be well below the surface to insure good mixing.

Years ago Harry did post on one of the forums an example of vapor pressure blowing all of the liquid away from the cap and therefore promoting vapor bypass because the cutouts were too tall.
Trample the injured and hurdle the dead.
User avatar
Demy
Master of Distillation
Posts: 3084
Joined: Fri Sep 04, 2020 1:45 pm

Re: Many questions about bubble plates

Post by Demy »

LWTCS wrote: Mon Mar 08, 2021 2:27 pm As I recall, we (SD) ultimately settled on a 4mm x 4 mm spacing for tooth. I can confirm that in the morning. I don't have that fully committed to my memory.
You'll definitely want that opening(s) to be well below the surface to insure good mixing.

Years ago Harry did post on one of the forums an example of vapor pressure blowing all of the liquid away from the cap and therefore promoting vapor bypass because the cutouts were too tall.
Thank you, as for the liquid bed on the plate Do you think that 15mm is the limit or could it be lowered further (per esempio 10mm)?
Post Reply