Hybrid Column for flavored spirits

Vapor, Liquid or Cooling Management. Flutes, plates, etc.

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Hybrid Column for flavored spirits

Post by Oatmeal »

I'm so ignorant I don't even know what questions to ask, LOL! Just spending the summer trying to figure out my ass from the kettle. My progression of stilling

It's hard not to want to build a flute, readin flute talk and seeing all that copper and glass that can pee whiskey from 1 pass! Some have argued that plates make a less rich whiskey and a packed column is the way to go.

The moral of the story is I would like to build a single pass column that can output about barrel strength ABV, but want to pretend a flute cost too much to build and isn't worth it. Plus you can adjust the packing to manipulate flavor, proof, and speed....

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Re: Hybrid Column for flavored spirits

Post by Setsumi »

A packed reflux column is rather a tool to make neutral. Yes the thread by Odin is on how to make wisky with a packed column and there are other threads on detuning a packed column for flavour. I used to do it Odin's way on a packed column but I am realy happy with my flutes. On a flute, if you need more flavour you can always drop a plate.
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Re: Hybrid Column for flavored spirits

Post by CopperFiend »

As setsumi said, packed columns are designed to strip as much flavour out as possible so is unlikely to be ideal for your purpose.
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Re: Hybrid Column for flavored spirits

Post by Tummydoc »

I vary between pot distillation (strip and spirit run) vs detuned bubble cap (3 plates most common) for whiskey. Still not convinced the flavor is worth 2 pot distillations vs one run on a few plates. But would not dream of trying my packed column, not enough flavor comes through. Sure in a pinch you can hammer a nail with a wrench, but it's still not the right tool.

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Re: Hybrid Column for flavored spirits

Post by Oatmeal »

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Well, maybe building 1 plate modular like, just to see, wouldn't hurt nothin....
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Re: Hybrid Column for flavored spirits

Post by zed255 »

I did a brandy in a packed column, only 18" or so using marbles, and pulled lots of flavour at an elevated and surprisingly consistent ABV. I just guestimated the HETP of my system and used that times the number of 'plates' I was shooting for to determine the overall height I needed. Worked well. I don't see why a packed column can't be more versatile than just a tall neutral making machine, though it will do that admirably.
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Re: Hybrid Column for flavored spirits

Post by bluefish_dist »

I have made some nice flavored spirits with a packed column. Just not very much packing. Maybe 8-12” of marbles. I adjusted the amount so that my output ran about 140 proof at a normal takeoff rate. Higher than that, too much packing, lower not enough. Same column with 8ft of packing makes 190.5 proof.
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Re: Hybrid Column for flavored spirits

Post by Oatmeal »

Setsumi wrote: Thu Aug 12, 2021 9:10 pm I used to do it Odin's way on a packed column but I am realy happy with my flutes. On a flute, if you need more flavour you can always drop a plate.
I run some batches of pure whiskey. First one I was bedeviled by some really nice high rummy notes in a jar o' heads. Really good flavor, but too mean. That'll get recycled into my second attempt at rum (thinking of refluxing the first batch to get something more immediately drinkable). Second batch I went tails heavy, and it real good. Not too much flavor, but I like the pure part. The buzz is cleaner....with my plate/packed combo, thinking I can drop or add some packing to manipulate the ABV flavor horizon. Let's find out!
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Re: Hybrid Column for flavored spirits

Post by Oatmeal »

Tummydoc wrote: Thu Aug 12, 2021 10:54 pm I vary between pot distillation (strip and spirit run) vs detuned bubble cap (3 plates most common) for whiskey. Still not convinced the flavor is worth 2 pot distillations vs one run on a few plates. But would not dream of trying my packed column, not enough flavor comes through. Sure in a pinch you can hammer a nail with a wrench, but it's still not the right tool.
Been potstilling to figure heads from tails, so to speak, wanting a baseline of how that wrench tastes after hammering a nail. Got all the tools I need, just need to figure out how they smell...
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Re: Hybrid Column for flavored spirits

Post by Oatmeal »

zed255 wrote: Fri Aug 13, 2021 6:35 am I did a brandy in a packed column, only 18" or so using marbles, and pulled lots of flavour at an elevated and surprisingly consistent ABV. I just guestimated the HETP of my system and used that times the number of 'plates' I was shooting for to determine the overall height I needed. Worked well. I don't see why a packed column can't be more versatile than just a tall neutral making machine, though it will do that admirably.
:thumbup:

Way easier to build, no? A random 16" piece of copper might make a good 3 to 4 plater, and something to learn about soldering stainless to copper in preparation for a more complex project.....I'm wanting to try a plate for my upcoming brandy run to trap the tails!
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Re: Hybrid Column for flavored spirits

Post by Oatmeal »

bluefish_dist wrote: Fri Aug 13, 2021 3:54 pm I have made some nice flavored spirits with a packed column. Just not very much packing. Maybe 8-12” of marbles. I adjusted the amount so that my output ran about 140 proof at a normal takeoff rate. Higher than that, too much packing, lower not enough. Same column with 8ft of packing makes 190.5 proof.
Do you ever get tired of sharing useful information? Hard work! This thread really tied my theoretical room together for this project. Looking to do barrel proof on 1 run, so thanks for the input!
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Re: Hybrid Column for flavored spirits

Post by bluefish_dist »

Oatmeal wrote: Fri Aug 13, 2021 6:57 pm
bluefish_dist wrote: Fri Aug 13, 2021 3:54 pm I have made some nice flavored spirits with a packed column. Just not very much packing. Maybe 8-12” of marbles. I adjusted the amount so that my output ran about 140 proof at a normal takeoff rate. Higher than that, too much packing, lower not enough. Same column with 8ft of packing makes 190.5 proof.
Do you ever get tired of sharing useful information? Hard work! This thread really tied my theoretical room together for this project. Looking to do barrel proof on 1 run, so thanks for the input!20210704_142924_copy_907x1612.jpg
The whole science and art of distilling interest me. Learned a lot from Odin. He has a lot of unconventional ideas, but I think they are sound. I was able to do a lot of runs, 50-60 per year. More than most will ever get to do. I also worked hard to run as fast as possible. I built 2 different vodka boiler, 4 different columns from 2 to 6”, tried different packings, marbles, SPP, scrubbies, and structured packing. For my big still I started at 4” and then went to 6”. Tried Bubble caps and sieve plates. Settled on sieve plates as I could make my own for far cheaper and they ran faster. Had help on the design from another member, so just trying to pass along the good info. The only thing I wonder about is how running at altitude compares to sea level. All my work was done at 6200 ft. Guess I won’t ever know for sure.

Really have not made anything since we sold back in 2019. Still hang out as I enjoy a good discussion. Try to give back as I learned a lot from this forum.
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Re: Hybrid Column for flavored spirits

Post by Oatmeal »

Spent all this time building, and still using the pot. Got a spirit run of Booner's in (my first attempt at all corn!) Using the boka and 16" column, detuned. Extremely pleased with the csst condenser, so thanks you crazy genius whut thought it up!

Even reading flute talk, it was difficult to put together a concept of bubble cap/plate design. The vapor path in 3" plates seemed pretty small? My plate is like, 6.27 inches, so I just added a cap to Mr. P's design since my column was bigger. Just tried to balance the ability of the plate to hold liquid with as much through surface area as possible. Thus 5 1" upcomers.

Hard to attribute all the info, but I guess most use step bits to drill holes? I had a hole saw and so built a jig. Mapped out my pattern on a piece of wood, drilled the holes and then removed the pilot to drill the plate (pic of pattern on plate in previous post) .
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Re: Hybrid Column for flavored spirits

Post by Saltbush Bill »

It's much easier to make the plate first before drilling it full of holes.
How do you intend getting that plate perfectly round and a tight fit into the pipe?
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Re: Hybrid Column for flavored spirits

Post by bluefish_dist »

After using both sieve and bubble caps, I really prefer sieve caps. Easier to build and run faster. For a 3” I would pack around 100 holes around .070”. Half inch downcomer will work fine.
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Re: Hybrid Column for flavored spirits

Post by Oatmeal »

Saltbush Bill wrote: Sun Aug 15, 2021 7:00 pm It's much easier to make the plate first before drilling it full of holes.
How do you intend getting that plate perfectly round and a tight fit into the pipe?
Tinsnips got it round enough. It's fitting into an 8" hemisphere. Plate size is predicated on being able to load up to 2" of liquid while maintaining a roughly 4.5" gap before the 3" packed mini column (on review distance is probably too short and 3" too slow...into the scrapper!)

Had no good level surfaces so used the sand box to level the ferrule on the hemisphere. Pre-soldered the ferrule, placed it on the sphere and heated it up. Despite my markings needed to reheat and tap the ferrule a bit to get it as close as possible to level. Once you get the hang of the thermal differences and have the right flux, stainless to copper is pretty doable!
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Re: Hybrid Column for flavored spirits

Post by Saltbush Bill »

My opinion only......its much easier to mark the disk/ plate to a slightly bigger size......drill one small hole smack centre of disk.
2 rough out disk with tin snips
3 inset small bolt through hole and tighten with a nut.
4 put whole affair in your electric drill.
5 spin edge of disk using drill on a course file or sand paper.
6 once close to a perfect fit use fine grit paper or finer file for final fitting.
7 you can get a perfect fit that way......or damned close.
Not my ideas......just how man do it and ive followed....it works.
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Re: Hybrid Column for flavored spirits

Post by Oatmeal »

I saw a great tutorial of the method you describe Mr. Bill, just can't track it down at the moment. Kinda wishing there was a tried and true build section, although tracking everything down is good for the soul?
bluefish_dist wrote: Mon Aug 16, 2021 4:58 am After using both sieve and bubble caps, I really prefer sieve caps. Easier to build and run faster. For a 3” I would pack around 100 holes around .070”. Half inch downcomer will work fine.

I liked the idea of having a bit more flexibility in running my plate....., wait a minute, why would I want to run slower?

Don't have a workshop, or a shed, and had plenty of pipe scraps to build bubble caps. I think this component has 23ish solder joints. Sheesh!

Surprised that a 1/2 downcomer would be adequate!
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Re: Hybrid Column for flavored spirits

Post by Saltbush Bill »

There are a few tips n tricks in this thread.
https://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtop ... 17&t=76349
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Re: Hybrid Column for flavored spirits

Post by Setsumi »

Oatmeal wrote: Thu Aug 19, 2021 6:15 pm I saw a great tutorial of the method you describe Mr. Bill, just can't track it down at the moment. Kinda wishing there was a tried and true build section, although tracking everything down is good for the soul?
bluefish_dist wrote: Mon Aug 16, 2021 4:58 am After using both sieve and bubble caps, I really prefer sieve caps. Easier to build and run faster. For a 3” I would pack around 100 holes around .070”. Half inch downcomer will work fine.

I liked the idea of having a bit more flexibility in running my plate....., wait a minute, why would I want to run slower?

Don't have a workshop, or a shed, and had plenty of pipe scraps to build bubble caps. I think this component has 23ish solder joints. Sheesh!

Surprised that a 1/2 downcomer would be adequate!

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You will need a liquid trap on the bottem of the downcommer. It will need to be ass tall as the top of the downcommer above the plate. I am not ceetain of your application but 2" liquid depth may be to much. Your layout will make it difficult to shorten your downcommer if needed. Look for a way to make your dowbcommer adjustable before soldering all together.
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Re: Hybrid Column for flavored spirits

Post by Oatmeal »

Lovely build Saltbush! I love your downcomer weir. Very elegant.

This build is one of the few times I've put my desire for something that looks badass over more pragmatic considerations...Of course I'm copying a design from 10 years ago before plates and flute theory was fully developed :think:

Setsumi- figuring out the plate depth and downcomer design took the most research. I settled on a minimum of 1/4" above the notches in my cap, which are 1/4" deep and 1/4 inch above the plate (puke gap?). Like Mr
P, soldered a 3/4 coupling as the down comer so I could adjust the fluid bed depth with 3/4 pipe. Trap is 2"ish, a re-used upcomer with a disc re-used from drilling the plate. Just long enough to stick out the bottom and make the sphere harder to store (laughing at myself for that one)

I am uncertain what a deeper fluid bed will do. Act more like a inline thumper? May just cause poor dynamics. A good project to learn from, just like a beginning mismanaged still run. Amazing how easy it looks on the forum, and how upside down and backwards I manage to get it...
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Re: Hybrid Column for flavored spirits

Post by Setsumi »

Well, I certainly want to see that run... Fu man did inspire me as well, never got the same output though but my goals were different. It did load well though and added some stability to the packed section but it did not make a neutral in one and done run... if your goal is flavour i think you will be happy. With your build skill you realy should do 4 or 5 on top another.
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Re: Hybrid Column for flavored spirits

Post by Oatmeal »

Ha! I like it Setsumi, thanks for sharing the pic!
Setsumi wrote: Sun Aug 22, 2021 11:05 am With your build skill you realy should do 4 or 5 on top another.
I saw a build by another member like that made out if stainless bowls (can't find it at the moment). Found Oldvine Zin's build looking....

Almost got hemispheres in descending sizes to build a "snowman".....

I was able to solder on the ferrules and use them as a jig to hole saw the sphere. Was pleased with that.

The hardest part was soldering the hemispheres together as they had deformed enough during the construction that they didn't line up easy. There was some prying and pushing and getting out of the hammer as I soldered a bit at a time. Only 1 flat spot....

Drilling out the sight glass, of course I knicked the bubble cap : (
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Re: Hybrid Column for flavored spirits

Post by Setsumi »

That is 👌.
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Re: Hybrid Column for flavored spirits

Post by Oatmeal »

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A few bits and Bob's before moving on to drive this sucker! I built a cap/ deflector to try and direct less volatile condensate back to the boiler, but both the vinegar and sacraficial run flooded at low power input. Took it off for a sweetfeed run and the plate ran great! [Pretty steady 92 percent till the end tails dropped to 80 15ish " lava in the column)...
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Re: Hybrid Column for flavored spirits

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Run a 1.5 SBB rum with 12" packing and got roughly 87% till the tails. Really manky feed molasses with a bunch o' additives judging from all the oil, but it didn't foam! Surprised at how drinkable it is right after cuts. It's getting put to sleep until my birthday next year.

Then I ran some slightly scorched booner's that had sat for a month on the corn meal for a month because I couldn't bear to throw it away. Came out at 87% single pass. Had to restabilize towards the end, but having sights top and bottom is a really nice tool! Riding that tails hearts boundary brought some really rich distillate. Almost all the scorch was left in the tails (ended up blending just a bit in because it also had corn flavor. Think it'll shape up with some deep rest). Liking the polish of this rig better right now than a double distillation through the pot...
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Re: Hybrid Column for flavored spirits

Post by Oatmeal »

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So really liking my setup. Going with 10" packing for the next run, done building for a while, except for a gin still.

Did find 6' of 4" to add to the build pile. Excited, but also thinking I may not need/want to use it anytime soon. I have a ton of questions/concepts (that I just came back and edited out because it's all on the forum and I just need to research/ build/ run for myself to figure out).

So much good info posted. Thanks all!
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Re: Hybrid Column for flavored spirits

Post by Oatmeal »

Ran another 1.5 run of rum made with the absolute worst possible adulterated blackstrap, which I will likely never use again (unless the rum turns out really good). Used 8" of packing, but got roughly the same percentages as 12". Flavor is rougher but added sugar to the 2nd ferment to compensate for the low fermentability of the blackstrap, backset and feints so who knows....

Strangely did not get much fogging on the top glass even deep in the tails. Got 3 jars with the most fusels I've seen.

When the tails are compressed I really like the flavor that comes out as you slow down to push them down and maintain higher ABVs.

I am curious how others use/view this fraction. Cut or keep? I'll likely keep on this rum because there's really great molasses flavor and it'll be put to sleep for a year, even though yummyrum strongly states tails are crap in rum.
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Re: Hybrid Column for flavored spirits

Post by Saltbush Bill »

Couple of comments and questions.
Nice work on the build :thumbup: how many balls/plates you got on the go there ?
Oatmeal wrote: Wed Sep 08, 2021 7:19 pm Strangely did not get much fogging on the top glass even deep in the tails.
My experience is with 3-4 or 5 plates ...Ive never seen a top plate fog yet, its always the bottom one that fogs on the onset of tails imo.
By the time a top plate , or even second from bottom fogs you have been in tails city for a good while.
Dont get me wrong , I can make a top plate fog as good as the next fella , but I gotta do every thing in the book wrong to do it.
Oatmeal wrote: Wed Sep 08, 2021 7:19 pm yummyrum strongly states tails are crap in rum.
Im a bit like Yummy ...hate tails , rarely include much if any in my Rum barrels. Having said that I think the amount of ,or complete lack of tail jars is a personal thing that varies on individual tastes.
Only way your ever going to know is to experiment and see what you like.
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Re: Hybrid Column for flavored spirits

Post by Oatmeal »

Saltbush Bill wrote: Thu Sep 09, 2021 3:19 am By the time a top plate , or even second from bottom fogs you have been in tails city for a good while......
Only way your ever going to know is to experiment and see what you like.
Interesting. That'll give me some head scratching time.

Just running the 1 (rectifying sphere?) under the short column packed with lava. Experimenting with changing the height of the packing to simulate varying plates.

The plate seems to get foggy 1/2 way through the run, but still getting good flavor out the top. Hmmmmmm.

Despite what I read, I'm finding more better flavor with a single pass in the column than a traditional pot run. So I like a more polished spirit with some good funk from tails? Weird. Hopefully not making these spirits too personalized...

At least I'm experimenting my way into a full cellar!
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