reflux column - ideas needed

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vaporcatcher
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reflux column - ideas needed

Post by vaporcatcher »

Hello builders,

I am in the process of upgrading my (pot) still and have the following 2" tri clamp components:

- stainless steel tube 458mm / 18"
- copper mesh packing
- sighting glass (161mm / 6 3/4")
- tee (161mm / 6 3/4") (closed with an end cap on the top)
- 90° elbow
- tri clamp 2" to 1/2" BSP thread adapter
- liebig condenser (approx. 60cm / 24" diy from 22mm/15mm tubes)
- powered by a 3000W heating element with power controller

What is the cheapest / easiest / best way to turn these parts into a reflux column?
I have been looking at various concepts and builds for a couple of weeks now but am not sure which way to go.
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jonnys_spirit
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Re: reflux column - ideas needed

Post by jonnys_spirit »

Looks like you could use a longer spool fir the column and a reflux condenser.

Check out the big CCVM thread.

Cheers!
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Re: reflux column - ideas needed

Post by Sporacle »

+1 with Jonny, one more 18 inch section and check out Hooks tutorial on winding a condensor and Budda Bing CCVM
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Re: reflux column - ideas needed

Post by vaporcatcher »

Thank you jonnys_spirit and sporacle

So by reflux condenser you mean the coil on top of/in the tee?
Is it better than a dephlegmator below the tee?

@sporacle can you give me the link to the Budda Bing CCVM you mentioned. I can't find it
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jonnys_spirit
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Re: reflux column - ideas needed

Post by jonnys_spirit »

I believe this thread should have all the details:

https://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtop ... =1&t=41579

Yes the reflux condenser on top/in the tee.

Cheers!
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Re: reflux column - ideas needed

Post by vaporcatcher »

Since space is limited, do you think that a small shotgun such as this one
https://de.aliexpress.com/item/10000363706045.html would be sufficient?

Or should I go rather for such one: https://de.aliexpress.com/item/10000363709767.html
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Re: reflux column - ideas needed

Post by jonnys_spirit »

Packed column height (height of the packed section) is going to be the critical factor with a 1:20 ratio desired for neutral (diameter to height). That means 40" packed 2" column desired plus RC height, sightglass section, and take-off feed.

In my mind a dephlegmator or a CCVM RC is a wash for height.

I'd do more research on the benefits of each before purchasing a shotgun but all you need with what you have is more packed column height and a CSST condenser which is pretty easy.

Cheers!
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Re: reflux column - ideas needed

Post by Sporacle »

Sorry mate, different expressions translate "budda Bing" is like "hey presto" or similar

Hooklines tutorial
https://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtop ... 62&t=14559

Your liebig will work for your product condesor, then either build a reflux condensor as per Hooklines thread above or search CSST condensor and use that method

Read and re read the link Jonny put up and you should be sweet

No need for a shotgun in the CCVM build with what you have currently :D
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Re: reflux column - ideas needed

Post by vaporcatcher »

Ok, thank you very much. I like the idea of a CSST condensor and did some sourcing.
I'd need approx. 60" of 3/8 corrugated steel pipe with 1/2" union nuts (is that the proper name/term for 'Überwurfmutter'?) and some 6" to 8" tri clamp tube.
This would cost me about the same here as such a 2" tri clamp 200mm (7 3/4") reflux condensor:
https://de.aliexpress.com/item/10000363706045.html

So which way to go? Buy the tube, corrugated steel hose and wind build a CSST or get this 200mm dephlegmator for approx. the same price?

Edit: seems like I can't order that reflux condenser from ali. whenever I go to the checkout I get the message that it is not available atm... too bad :(
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Re: reflux column - ideas needed

Post by Sporacle »

You probably need to read Jonnys link again, the CCVM works on the theory of the reflux condensor being able to be moved up and down during the run in order to effect the product take off, a dephleg as I understand is stationary (someone has built on that travels vertically and I can't remember who atm sorry) and uses flow rate of water to effect the rate of product take off.
If you want a CCVM you need a wound, moveable style reflux condensor and it looks like you like the CSST style.
I have never had anything to do with these so can offer no help on CSST.
As I said re read Jonnys link and work out which parts you need to purchase :D
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Re: reflux column - ideas needed

Post by vaporcatcher »

I know that you can move the condensor up/down in order to determine the reflux ratio.

In case I would have used the dephlegmator I thought about adding a needle valve in order to control the temperature of the cooling water and thus be able to control the condensation. Of course I then would have to mount an end cap on top of the dephlegmator.
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Re: reflux column - ideas needed

Post by kimbodious »

vaporcatcher wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 12:28 pm I know that you can move the condensor up/down in order to determine the reflux ratio.

In case I would have used the dephlegmator I thought about adding a needle valve in order to control the temperature of the cooling water and thus be able to control the condensation. Of course I then would have to mount an end cap on top of the dephlegmator.
I have tried both options and settled on the CCVM style, it is so much easier to operate and cheaper to build.
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Re: reflux column - ideas needed

Post by Sporacle »

:D Sorry for the confusion my posts only related to dads CCVM, good luck
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Re: reflux column - ideas needed

Post by Sporacle »

kimbodious wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 12:39 pm
vaporcatcher wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 12:28 pm I know that you can move the condensor up/down in order to determine the reflux ratio.

In case I would have used the dephlegmator I thought about adding a needle valve in order to control the temperature of the cooling water and thus be able to control the condensation. Of course I then would have to mount an end cap on top of the dephlegmator.
I have tried both options and settled on the CCVM style, it is so much easier to operate and cheaper to build.
Kimbo, with the Dephleg on top how do you stop the product coming out the take off from the T. I am assuming that if Vaporcatcher blanks off the top of his Delphleg he has to have some way of blocking his outlet, so then this would become a totally closed system at some stage or am I missing something.
I assumed top of dephleg open at all times and a valve on the outlet for the product in that system would be the way if the dephleg was above the take off, sorry mate I'm a bit confused and think I can see a bit of a potential safety issue :D

I've edited this, what I mean is assuming you want to put the ccvm into full reflux how do you do this with a capped dephleg on top of your take off
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Re: reflux column - ideas needed

Post by Setsumi »

A CCVM and a dephlegamater is 2 different reflux types. A CCVM is a sliding coil to close or open your take off port. The take off port is positiond so that the coil drops past it and keep the reflux condensation below the port. For take off slide the coil up.

A dephlag is used in a CM style reflux head. In a shell and pipe style the take off is above the condenser. There are styles with a coil where take off can be to the side but it is close to the top. You need to regulate the cooling water to get take off.
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Re: reflux column - ideas needed

Post by kimbodious »

Good questions Sporacle!
When I had a dephlegmator above the offtake I was running a VM (vapour management) system. This had a valve between the offtake and the PC (product condenser). Yes, you must have the top of the column open with a VM system because of the risk of a pressure or “bomb” situation if the valve to the PC was accidentally left closed.
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Re: reflux column - ideas needed

Post by Sporacle »

Thanks Kimbo, that's exactly how I imagined you were running yours, just trying to make sure Vapor catcher understands the difference in the systems
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Re: reflux column - ideas needed

Post by vaporcatcher »

Thank you all very much for your kind help and support!
From all I have read and seen now, I will go for the CSST version.
So now I need to find a cheap source for one to two meters of 3/8" SS corrugated pipe.
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Re: reflux column - ideas needed

Post by Yummyrum »

Umm guys , can we stop using the word Deflagmator loosely .
Deflagmators are used in Coolant management (CM) stills only .
Reflux condenser (RC) is the correct name for a…. well .. reflux condenser in a VM , LM , or CCVM still .

Please keep the terminology correct so we are all on the same page. :thumbup:
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Re: reflux column - ideas needed

Post by Setsumi »

Yummyrum wrote: Thu Sep 16, 2021 3:50 am Umm guys , can we stop using the word Deflagmator loosely .
Deflagmators are used in Coolant management (CM) stills only .
Reflux condenser (RC) is the correct name for a…. well .. reflux condenser in a VM , LM , or CCVM still .

Please keep the terminology correct so we are all on the same page. :thumbup:
Yes, I tried to say it myself a post or 2 before.
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Re: reflux column - ideas needed

Post by Saltbush Bill »

Yummyrum wrote: Thu Sep 16, 2021 3:50 am Umm guys , can we stop using the word Deflagmator loosely .
Deflagmators are used in Coolant management (CM) stills only .
Agree 100% Yummy........it's annoying and leads to much confusion......it's becoming more n more prevalent......the two ARE NOT THE SAME.
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Re: reflux column - ideas needed

Post by TwoSheds »

Just for clarity, are the terms mutually exclusive or is a deplegmator just a specific type of reflux condenser?
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Re: reflux column - ideas needed

Post by Saltbush Bill »

A reflux condenser is used to knock down all of the vapor at all times, Full reflux use.
The definition of a Dephlegmator below.
https://www.thermopedia.com/content/691/
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Re: reflux column - ideas needed

Post by Sporacle »

:D Thanks for the clarification, so just so I'm 100% if the shotgun is above the take off as the OP was thinking of doing then it is a reflux as it needs to knock down 100%
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Re: reflux column - ideas needed

Post by Saltbush Bill »

In simplistic terms, If its above and running at full reflux I guess so.
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Re: reflux column - ideas needed

Post by Setsumi »

Sporacle wrote: Thu Sep 16, 2021 11:46 am :D Thanks for the clarification, so just so I'm 100% if the shotgun is above the take off as the OP was thinking of doing then it is a reflux as it needs to knock down 100%
As Yummy and SBB tries to steer, rather think of reflux head types and what they do. A CM or cooling management head can/ should be capable of 100% reflux but to get take off you need to reduce its efficiency by limiting cooling so that vapour can escape past it, that is where the dephlagamator or partial condenser comes in. (It may be tubes in a shel or a coil... just for extra clarity... confusion).

In VM and LM you regulate take off with a valve on the take off, so you do not manage reflux directly with restricting cooling to your condensor... although your take off does influence reflux rate, more on LM than VM.

In CCVM, you use your reflux condenser as valve to block your take off. Dropped down all reflux happens below your take off port. Lift it and some vapour may escape because of a physical position of the condenser to the take off port and not a valve in VM or LM nor restriction of cooling as in CM.
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Re: reflux column - ideas needed

Post by Sporacle »

:D Thanks Setsumi, just finished a CCVM build and love it, struggled a bit with the OP concept with the shotgun above the take off. I understand the difference
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Re: reflux column - ideas needed

Post by Saltbush Bill »

Setsumi wrote: Thu Sep 16, 2021 12:24 pm (It may be tubes in a shell or a coil... just for extra clarity... confusion).
I was going to mention that , it also muddys the waters for newbs IMO. Traditionally or until recent times, the era of buy it off the shelf/ plug n play stills......tube/ shotgun type condensers were only used as Dephlegmators or product condensers on Plated columns. People have since found assorts of purposes for them. 99% of Reflux columns ran coil type reflux condensers.
Times change.
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Re: reflux column - ideas needed

Post by Stonecutter »

Saltbush Bill wrote: Thu Sep 16, 2021 12:58 pm 99% of Reflux columns ran coil type reflux condensers.
Times change.
I’ve read that if the packing is tight enough a jacketed column piece would work but that in experiments the coil type (“cold finger”) was a better choice as it keeps the liquid from running down the sides. Is that your opinion Salty? Further more, is 1x the diameter of the column a “normal” head space for packing below the reflux head. RAD had suggested that in a boka thread.
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Re: reflux column - ideas needed

Post by bluc »

Yummyrum wrote: Thu Sep 16, 2021 3:50 am Umm guys , can we stop using the word Deflagmator loosely .
Deflagmators are used in Coolant management (CM) stills only .
Reflux condenser (RC) is the correct name for a…. well .. reflux condenser in a VM , LM , or CCVM still .

Please keep the terminology correct so we are all on the same page. :thumbup:


Shotgun is the type? Deflagmeter is the still type use? I think of them all as reflux condensers with exception of pc product condenser which can also be a shottie can get confusing :crazy:
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