VM Column Build

Vapor, Liquid or Cooling Management. Flutes, plates, etc.

Moderator: Site Moderator

NZPete
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 86
Joined: Sat Sep 04, 2021 11:13 pm

VM Column Build

Post by NZPete »

Hey all,

New to distilling, have ordered a ton of parts and they're slowly turning up!

Thought I'd post a progress pic of the assembly with the hardware that has arrived currently :lol:

The ball valve is actually a drain valve for my boiler but the gate valve I ordered hasn't turned up yet.

As soon as I get an elbow and reducer I can connect the shotgun product condenser as well
B321B518-2619-41E4-88DB-771055045598.jpeg
User avatar
Demy
Master of Distillation
Posts: 3072
Joined: Fri Sep 04, 2020 1:45 pm

Re: VM Column Build

Post by Demy »

A possible alternative to the ball valve would be a CCVM style where the reflux coil acts as a valve. Check those orange seals
OtisT
Master of Distillation
Posts: 3175
Joined: Sat Oct 24, 2015 11:59 am
Location: Pacific Northwest

Re: VM Column Build

Post by OtisT »

I love a good VM build thread. :thumbup: In recent years a handful of folks keep pushing CCVM as the answer to every build question, but I’ll take a valved VM any day of the week. :D

That glass spool sure looks nice but it does not provide any value where you have it placed. I recommend you swap it with the spool just below your VM takeoff. Pack the glass section like a column section and leave the top 3” viewable inches unpacked. With that view you can see both how much reflux you are returning to the column and if your column is flooding. Very valuable info, especially when learning to drive your rig.

I am curious to know how much power you have for heat?

Otis
Otis’ Pot and Thumper, Dimroth Condenser: Pot-n-Thumper/Dimroth
Learning to Toast: Toasting Wood
Polishing Spirits with Fruitwood: Fruitwood
Badmotivator’s Barrels: Badmo Barrels
User avatar
Saltbush Bill
Site Mod
Posts: 9643
Joined: Thu Mar 17, 2011 2:13 am
Location: Northern NSW Australia

Re: VM Column Build

Post by Saltbush Bill »

For maximum performance the column also needs to be in insulated....I don't see that much exposed glass to low in the still being helpful.
NZPete
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 86
Joined: Sat Sep 04, 2021 11:13 pm

Re: VM Column Build

Post by NZPete »

OtisT wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 1:11 pm I love a good VM build thread. :thumbup: In recent years a handful of folks keep pushing CCVM as the answer to every build question, but I’ll take a valved VM any day of the week. :D

That glass spool sure looks nice but it does not provide any value where you have it placed. I recommend you swap it with the spool just below your VM takeoff. Pack the glass section like a column section and leave the top 3” viewable inches unpacked. With that view you can see both how much reflux you are returning to the column and if your column is flooding. Very valuable info, especially when learning to drive your rig.

I am curious to know how much power you have for heat?

Otis
Hey Otis,

I have a short version of the sight glass (100mm long) for connection above the two insulation spools but I am currently a few clamps short so I couldn't connect it! That way I can see what's being returned to the SPP etc.

I've got a 4.5kw element and a controller, planning to run 2-2.5kw in reflux mode

I've attached an image below of the other parts I currently have. Still quite a few to arrive and then the boiler to be fabricated
Screenshot_20210924-093046_Gallery.jpg
User avatar
Yummyrum
Global moderator
Posts: 7596
Joined: Sat Jul 06, 2013 2:23 am
Location: Fraser Coast QLD Aussie

Re: VM Column Build

Post by Yummyrum »

Ball valve works just fine . Unless you get a notch gate valve with zero backlash you’ll find a ball more accurate to use . The amount that a VM valve is actually open in very small .Using a smaller valve makes it easier to operate as you have more of the valve open .

You might want to get a few reels of teflon tape to wrap all those Silicone gaskets up in . .

The 100mm site glass below tee will help IMO , especially if you are going to use 4500w to heat up ….. definitely potential for a big squirt out the top if you miss the window to turn down .

My advice is to always keep feeling the column at the bottom . The moment you feel it get hot , you literally seconds to drop power .

4500w is a lot of current . What sort of power point have you got installed?
NZPete
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 86
Joined: Sat Sep 04, 2021 11:13 pm

Re: VM Column Build

Post by NZPete »

Yummyrum wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 1:43 pm Ball valve works just fine . Unless you get a notch gate valve with zero backlash you’ll find a ball more accurate to use . The amount that a VM valve is actually open in very small .Using a smaller valve makes it easier to operate as you have more of the valve open .

You might want to get a few reels of teflon tape to wrap all those Silicone gaskets up in . .

The 100mm site glass below tee will help IMO , especially if you are going to use 4500w to heat up ….. definitely potential for a big squirt out the top if you miss the window to turn down .

My advice is to always keep feeling the column at the bottom . The moment you feel it get hot , you literally seconds to drop power .

4500w is a lot of current . What sort of power point have you got installed?
My wife has informed me I'll be running it at work so I'll just be using a PowerPoint in the warehouse. We're on 230v so 20A should cut the mustard for a 4.5kw element I'm hoping!


That's interesting about the ball valve. I do prefer a ball valve and then I don't have to connect threaded ferrules etc so maybe I'll just stick with it!
User avatar
Ben
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 1292
Joined: Mon Oct 05, 2020 6:13 am
Location: Colorado

Re: VM Column Build

Post by Ben »

230v at 20 amps is 4600 watts

to run 4500 watts you need 4500/0.8, or 5625 watts, IE a 25a breaker. You will need a smaller element.
:)
NZPete
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 86
Joined: Sat Sep 04, 2021 11:13 pm

Re: VM Column Build

Post by NZPete »

Ben wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 4:22 pm 230v at 20 amps is 4600 watts

to run 4500 watts you need 4500/0.8, or 5625 watts, IE a 25a breaker. You will need a smaller element.
Unlikely I'm going to change the element. I'll probably change the breaker or run a new circuit if I need to. I'm really not too worried about that side of things to be honest, making changes in a warehouse environment is pretty straightforward
OtisT
Master of Distillation
Posts: 3175
Joined: Sat Oct 24, 2015 11:59 am
Location: Pacific Northwest

Re: VM Column Build

Post by OtisT »

Saltbush Bill wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 1:18 pm For maximum performance the column also needs to be in insulated....I don't see that much exposed glass to low in the still being helpful.
Good point Bill. I was not thinking about that. Moot point, now that Pete shared with us that he has a short sight glass on order too. :thumbup:
Otis’ Pot and Thumper, Dimroth Condenser: Pot-n-Thumper/Dimroth
Learning to Toast: Toasting Wood
Polishing Spirits with Fruitwood: Fruitwood
Badmotivator’s Barrels: Badmo Barrels
User avatar
Yummyrum
Global moderator
Posts: 7596
Joined: Sat Jul 06, 2013 2:23 am
Location: Fraser Coast QLD Aussie

Re: VM Column Build

Post by Yummyrum »

Worth mentioning that copper has a thermal conductivity about 400 times greater than glass . :ewink:
So yeah , I’d wrap my copper but not so concerned about a small glass section ….. especially if it had little to no packing in it .

Tis also why glass condensers are shite compared to copper ones . :thumbup:
NZPete
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 86
Joined: Sat Sep 04, 2021 11:13 pm

Re: VM Column Build

Post by NZPete »

20211018_091818.jpg
Hi Team,

Well, there was a real lull in packages arriving! Unfortunately I'm still waiting for the last of the fittings required for my boiler and fermenter to go into fabrication, and I also have a sanitary cross coming to replace the two Ts at the takeoff (just to reduce height a bit).

Anyway, pretty much everything else for the column has finally arrived- here it is!
NZPete
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 86
Joined: Sat Sep 04, 2021 11:13 pm

Re: VM Column Build

Post by NZPete »

16348666918626747879947022731901.jpg
Well, not much feedback there 🤣 fair enough.

I have some mesh gaskets for the SPP. Has anyone used anything similar and would be able to weigh in on whether it's grunty enough to support almost 2kg of spp?
User avatar
still_stirrin
Master of Distillation
Posts: 10329
Joined: Tue Mar 18, 2014 7:01 am
Location: where the buffalo roam, and the deer & antelope play

Re: VM Column Build

Post by still_stirrin »

Careful. Those have been used before and tend to hold up condensate, causing flooding. Don’t over pack your column as that would exacerbate the problem.
ss
My LM/VM & Potstill: My build thread
My Cadco hotplate modification thread: Hotplate Build
My stock pot gin still: stock pot potstill
My 5-grain Bourbon recipe: Special K
NZPete
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 86
Joined: Sat Sep 04, 2021 11:13 pm

Re: VM Column Build

Post by NZPete »

Good news today fellas - my SPP has reached the US and is being sent to NZ. Unfortunately the Russian manufacturer didn't ship to NZ so I've had to do it that way. Should have it within a month.

Still waiting on my final delivery of tri clamp fittings, so unfortunately my boiler and fermenter aren't into fabrication yet. It looks like they're somewhere in the country though so with luck they'll arrive in time to have the fabrication complete before the SPP arrives.

Less good news - my wife decided to go through our statement and add up what I've spent.. :crazy:
NZPete
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 86
Joined: Sat Sep 04, 2021 11:13 pm

Re: VM Column Build

Post by NZPete »

Hey fellas.

Exciting news today, my SPP is here!!
20211110_083422.jpg
User avatar
Yummyrum
Global moderator
Posts: 7596
Joined: Sat Jul 06, 2013 2:23 am
Location: Fraser Coast QLD Aussie

Re: VM Column Build

Post by Yummyrum »

Oh that must be exciting .
Is it copper ?
NZPete
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 86
Joined: Sat Sep 04, 2021 11:13 pm

Re: VM Column Build

Post by NZPete »

Yeah mate, 5x5x0.5mm copper SPP. Bought it off some random lady in Russia... :?

I just had the balance of my triclamp fittings turn up too, so I've just dropped those off to my fabricator and hopefully a couple of weeks from now I have a 50l boiler and 100l fermenter! :idea:

I packed the column with the SPP and used the mesh gasket shown in post above to hold it in the column... well, that didn't work! Back to the drawing board
howie
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 620
Joined: Sun Jul 19, 2020 7:34 am

Re: VM Column Build

Post by howie »

i know it's more stuff, but if you put 1 or 2 rolls of copper mesh to hold the SPP in the column.
would that work?
my rolls of mesh fit pretty close and tight, but are still very breathable.
NZPete
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 86
Joined: Sat Sep 04, 2021 11:13 pm

Re: VM Column Build

Post by NZPete »

Hey howie ,


Yeah I'm open to that. Would that stay suspended in the column without any sort of screen to hold it up?
rull_bull
Novice
Posts: 17
Joined: Tue Mar 09, 2021 8:10 am

Re: VM Column Build

Post by rull_bull »

I am sure your packing is going to work great, just want to point out that yours is not the ”real” spp.

The original spp is star shaped, you can compare it with the pictures here: https://stillforyou.com/produkt/spiral- ... c-packing/
howie
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 620
Joined: Sun Jul 19, 2020 7:34 am

Re: VM Column Build

Post by howie »

you would have to try it and see.
maybe even see how much weight of SPP that 1 x roll of mesh would hold.
maybe one roll at the bottom of of each section if it's too heavy?
i roll a 2.4m length of mesh in a 2", it's a tight fit, but it still 'breathes' well.
i can't see a problem using mesh as a 'stopper', unless some of the more experienced blokes can see a problem.
what do SPP users usually use to hold their bit's in the column?
rull_bull
Novice
Posts: 17
Joined: Tue Mar 09, 2021 8:10 am

Re: VM Column Build

Post by rull_bull »

When you order spp from the polish guy from the link above, you get 2 wire disc for each liter you order.

They are made from the same wire as the spp, looks like mesh but with more spring tension so they stay in place in the column and can hold the spp weight.
NZPete
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 86
Joined: Sat Sep 04, 2021 11:13 pm

Re: VM Column Build

Post by NZPete »

So I ordered a 10m roll of copper mesh ex. China to hold up my SPP. It arrived today and its clearly brass :crazy:

One step at a time
cmac62
Novice
Posts: 37
Joined: Thu Jul 22, 2021 11:03 am

Re: VM Column Build

Post by cmac62 »

I don't know how much the SPP weighs, but I have used some stiff copper mesh stuffed into the column to hold up 24" of lava rock with no problems. The copper mesh is the type in craft stores used for sculpture. My column is in two pieces, 24 and 12" sections. I was worried it wouldn't hold, but it held perfectly.
NZPete
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 86
Joined: Sat Sep 04, 2021 11:13 pm

Re: VM Column Build

Post by NZPete »

Thanks cmac. I have ordered some copper mesh - hopefully this time it's actually copper when it arrives!

I went to see my fabricator today to clarify a couple of things before he starts cutting the stainless for my boiler and fermenter - fingers crossed that means it'll be finished over the next couple of days!
User avatar
Fletching
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 47
Joined: Fri Dec 03, 2021 6:08 pm
Location: Oklahoma

Re: VM Column Build

Post by Fletching »

I purchased a 2” spool piece from Brewhaus that has a welded stainless screen on the end with large holes that haven’t caused any unwanted flooding issues. I then put a roll of copper mesh on top of that before adding my SPP. I use the mesh to keep the SPP from falling through the large holes in the screen, but have never tested out using just copper mesh to keep SPP from making a mess in the boiler….

So I went to the garage.

I just pieced together 36” of my column that doesn’t have the support in the bottom. I added one section of tightly rolled copper mesh in the end and filled the rest with my SPP. It help the weight just fine, but did start to move as I bounced the column up and down. I added a second section of mesh to the bottom, and did it again. This time, it was hard to get it to move at all by bouncing.

Granted, I didn’t test this during a run, but I feel like you should be fine with two sections of copper mesh holding up the SPP as long as you roll them pretty tight. See what you think when you get your mesh in, but from what I just saw, I think it would work.
Here’s to lobster tail and whiskey. Three of my favorite things.

Easy Maceration Boiler https://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtop ... 7#p7691427
NZPete
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 86
Joined: Sat Sep 04, 2021 11:13 pm

Re: VM Column Build

Post by NZPete »

Hey guys,

Just an update on where I'm at. I went down to my fabricators shop today - the components are still sitting cut and ready to weld - hopefully today! The joys of calling in a favor 🥴

I've got some copper mesh to go on top of my screens now, which should sort out holding in my SPP. I've also got the rest of the column ready to go - hose fittings, quick connects etc. The last item I'm waiting on is a new stainless compression gland as I ordered one too small for my thermometer.

Question for the VM operators- which valve would you recommend? As you can see I've ended up with a few here
Screenshot_20220124-125316_Gallery.jpg
20220124_124349.jpg
User avatar
Yummyrum
Global moderator
Posts: 7596
Joined: Sat Jul 06, 2013 2:23 am
Location: Fraser Coast QLD Aussie

Re: VM Column Build

Post by Yummyrum »

I’d try them all Pete … especially since you have them already .
Personally I use the Ball valve with the blue handle style .

The Gate valve would seem to give you more control because there is around 5 full turns between opened and closed , but they tend to have backlash .
IE , when you change direction , you have to turn knob by maybe 1/4 to half a turn before the actual gate moves . This can often be more than the amount you needed to adjust it by .

In that respect a ball valve is more definite in its movement but you only have less than a quarter turn between open and close .

I’ve mentioned it a few times on the forum but I have marked on the handle the exact point where the ball is just closed .Its about 10-15° from the stop . Once you know where that is , you can use it as a reference when running . There will be barely 2-5° past the “just closed” position that you will be at to start taking off foreshots , and heads and hearts positions are not that further past . Everything happens in a very narrow band of handle movement .

So forget the concept of grabbing the handle and turning it , it will be more a minute gentle tapping a few degrees .

I’ll let someone else mention what to do about the orange things n the sight glasses
NZPete
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 86
Joined: Sat Sep 04, 2021 11:13 pm

Re: VM Column Build

Post by NZPete »

Yummyrum wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 4:47 pm I’d try them all Pete … especially since you have them already .
Personally I use the Ball valve with the blue handle style .

The Gate valve would seem to give you more control because there is around 5 full turns between opened and closed , but they tend to have backlash .
IE , when you change direction , you have to turn knob by maybe 1/4 to half a turn before the actual gate moves . This can often be more than the amount you needed to adjust it by .

In that respect a ball valve is more definite in its movement but you only have less than a quarter turn between open and close .

I’ve mentioned it a few times on the forum but I have marked on the handle the exact point where the ball is just closed .Its about 10-15° from the stop . Once you know where that is , you can use it as a reference when running . There will be barely 2-5° past the “just closed” position that you will be at to start taking off foreshots , and heads and hearts positions are not that further past . Everything happens in a very narrow band of handle movement .

So forget the concept of grabbing the handle and turning it , it will be more a minute gentle tapping a few degrees .

I’ll let someone else mention what to do about the orange things n the sight glasses
Thanks yummy!! I have some PTFE tape, it just seems niggly so I've been procrastinating!!!

Sounds good about the valves, I'll try a few things and see where I end up
Post Reply