VM/LM combinatIon still head

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VM/LM combinatIon still head

Post by Dancing4dan »

With a lot of help from still_stirrin my 2 inch VM/LM combination still head is ready for cleaning runs. :D :D 1 1/2 oz LM take off reservoir. Will use my existing Liebig condensers for both LM and VM. My VM valve is only 1/2 “ but so is my Liebig condenser inside tubing. I thought I had a 3/4 but it wasn’t so.

Big thank you to still_stirrin for taking the time to explain his setup to me and provide a lot of good information.
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Re: VM/LM combinatIon still head

Post by Yummyrum »

Nice :thumbup:

You will probably find that you don’t use the LM head after awhile . VM’s sooo much more easy to run . :ebiggrin:
I think I used my LM takeoff about 2 or 3 times . Did nothing that VM couldn’t .

Some say you can remove heads through the LM but that means they can’t clean all the tails gunk out of the VM port after it was last used .
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Re: VM/LM combinatIon still head

Post by Dancing4dan »

Still need a reflux condenser. I have a small one that won’t handle the 400 Watt element. Just waiting for Amazon to drop off some corrugated SS.
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Re: VM/LM combinatIon still head

Post by still_stirrin »

Looking good D4D. Oh, so shiny!
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Re: VM/LM combinatIon still head

Post by OtisT »

Sweet work D4D. That 1/2” valve will be just fine.

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Re: VM/LM combinatIon still head

Post by Yummyrum »

OtisT wrote: Wed Nov 10, 2021 8:25 pm That 1/2” valve will be just fine.

Otis
Totally , should be nice smooth control …. No titchy adjustments like iff’n you had used a larger one . :thumbup:
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Re: VM/LM combinatIon still head

Post by Saltbush Bill »

Damn shiny looking thing :thumbup: Nice work.
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Re: VM/LM combinatIon still head

Post by Yummyrum »

Dancing4dan wrote: Wed Nov 10, 2021 7:08 pm Still need a reflux condenser. I have a small one that won’t handle the 400 Watt element. Just waiting for Amazon to drop off some corrugated SS.
Gosh , hope you’e gonna stick more than 400w up its clacker . 2” can easily handle closer to 2kw . I run 2.4kw on mine . I run it via a controller , buts it’s up full tit . Only once seen beginnings of flooding at that power .
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Re: VM/LM combinatIon still head

Post by LWTCS »

100% Yummy.
400 watts sounds mind numbing.

The silver lining to 400 watts is that there is no fear of a disruption in the gradient when running balls to the wall haha.
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Re: VM/LM combinatIon still head

Post by Dancing4dan »

LOL. Was typing without my glasses. :oops: 400 Watts might not make tea! It is a 4500 Watt element but seems to max out at 4000 Watts. Has a long welder extension cord that is likely causing the drop. Or the cheap meter just reads low.
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Re: VM/LM combinatIon still head

Post by zapata »

4000 watts is way too much. I'd say Yummy's 2.4kw is too much. 1800-2000 watts is the sweetspot for a 2" reflux column IMHO.

Also, I'd be wary of an extension cord dropping 500 watts, is it really rated for that much CONSTANT amperage?
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Re: VM/LM combinatIon still head

Post by Yummyrum »

zapata wrote: Wed Nov 17, 2021 6:12 am I'd say Yummy's 2.4kw is too much.
Thats fare zapata . To be honest I also run mine on a 15A extension cord and I have measured to voltage under load at the element end and I calculated it is closer to 2100w IIRC . I have only seen it try to flood once . ( But I was more concerned with dealing with that than finding a double adaptor and my True RMS multimeter to see what the real power was)

I will also say that I generally use the VM /LM in cooler months preferring to make Rum over summer . During summer , I have seen our supply voltage skyrocket as the neighbours solar system jacks it to around 250v . I dare say I would be flooding then and be turning down the wick . :ewink:

Perhaps If I had a taller packed column , I might use less . I believe Kimbodious uses 1800w on his which is way taller than mine .
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Re: VM/LM combinatIon still head

Post by still_stirrin »

I have a LM/VM on a 2”ID x 1 meter tall, glass marble packed column. I typically use between 1.8kW and 2.0kW when running high purity products. Indeed, it seems well balanced for my rig.

I don’t monitor total power although my controller has both an analog voltmeter and analog ammeter. I simply watch the ammeter and adjust accordingly since the voltage does not vary much even through full adjustment of the current (via the Triac circuit).

Incidentally, my VM is a conventional valve regulated head, not the revolutionary CCVM design. I rarely, if ever, adjust the valve setting once the still starts producing. It’s output is a steady %ABV all the way until production diminishes at the backend. That’s when I switch back to the LM output and finish collecting while the %ABV drops “like a brick”.
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Re: VM/LM combinatIon still head

Post by Dancing4dan »

Here it is assembled but needing some hose clamps and the hat under the reflux condenser. There is a copper scrubbie filled column covered in insulation that goes under all that. The basement is a low ceiling and it won’t fit! Pretty much ready for the cleaning runs!

Thanks again for all the help SS!

Because of my Liebig condensers it’s not as compact as yours SS, yet. That shotgun condenser looks like a fun project to build!
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Re: VM/LM combinatIon still head

Post by Dancing4dan »

The same element gets used in my pot still. Has a controller and will work fine.
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Re: VM/LM combinatIon still head

Post by Dancing4dan »

And that isn’t your average extension cord. :wink: It is used to put my welders out in the yard when metal projects don’t fit in the shop
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Re: VM/LM combinatIon still head

Post by Oatmeal »

Csst for a condenser is the best!

I've been pondering a vm build. I'd be curious if putting the tee in the skinny section, between the reducers would give a different reflux ratio. Is it 1 1/2? An 1.5 tee would then give a 50/50 vapor split....this way I don't think about stressful work issues!

Enjoying watching your build progress.
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Re: VM/LM combinatIon still head

Post by Oatmeal »

Looking deeper, the strap holding your water manifold to the condenser shell is lovely. How did you fabricate it?
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Re: VM/LM combinatIon still head

Post by Saltbush Bill »

That strap caught my eye too......very nice work.
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Re: VM/LM combinatIon still head

Post by Dancing4dan »

Oatmeal wrote: Tue Nov 23, 2021 8:22 pm Looking deeper, the strap holding your water manifold to the condenser shell is lovely. How did you fabricate it?
Thanks. I have some flat copper sheet left over from another project. Didn’t want rectangular so cut it with slight fish tail edges. Tin snips and used a body panel hammer to shape it over a mandrel. Metal shaping and fabrication is another hobby so it has cross over into this hobby. Copper is really nice to work with. Filing off all of the excess silver solder takes a bit of time.
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Re: VM/LM combinatIon still head

Post by Dancing4dan »

Oatmeal wrote: Tue Nov 23, 2021 8:17 pm Csst for a condenser is the best!

I've been pondering a vm build. I'd be curious if putting the tee in the skinny section, between the reducers would give a different reflux ratio. Is it 1 1/2? An 1.5 tee would then give a 50/50 vapor split....this way I don't think about stressful work issues!

Enjoying watching your build progress.
My tee is 2X23/4.

Yummyrum has a VM with the take off in the narrow section. He has a thread here where he is doing some experimentation. I don’t think he has a LM section but I may be wrong.

I think vapor split is controlled by how far the VM valve gets opened. Which is only slight I as I understand it. VM and LM are both totally new to me so the learning curve will be all uphill for a while as I learn to drive this one.
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Re: VM/LM combinatIon still head

Post by Oatmeal »

This thread may interest you...
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Re: VM/LM combinatIon still head

Post by still_stirrin »

Dancing4dan wrote: Wed Nov 24, 2021 4:15 amMy tee is 2x2x3/4.
:
I think vapor split is controlled by how far the VM valve gets opened. Which is only slight I as I understand it…
In a vapor managed (VM) reflux still, the reflux ratio is managed by the ratio of the openings, ie - opening (throat area) to VM valve opening area. So, for a conventional VM with a 1” ID throat and a 1” ID valve, the MINIMUM reflux ratio would be 1:1.

But the maximum would be determined by the throat area divided by the valve’s open area. So, with a valve 1/4 open, the RR would be 1x1 / (1/4 x 1/4) or 16:1, in the case of the 1” throat and 1” valve. And when the valve is closed, the RR is infinity (division by zero)…ALL of the vapor is returned down the column.

In your example D4D, the throat opening is 1” and the valve is 1/2” ID, right? So, the minimum RR is 1 x 1 / (1/2x1/2) = 4:1, because the area is proportional to the square of the diameter, remember. Likewise, if the valve was 1/2 open, then the RR is approximately 1x1 / (1/4 x1/4) = 16:1. If the valve is just cracked open, assume 1/8 open, the RR is then 1x1 / (1/16x1/16) = 256:1, ie - damn near infinity!

And keep in mind that the reflux ratio is the ratio of the vapor that returns down the column to the vapor that passes to the product outlet. Higher RRs give higher purity.

One thing for a VM operation that is critical is the vapor velocities as it can have an affect on the static pressures in the flow stream. If you have excessive velocity in the product condenser line it will tend to unbalance the vapor split between the reflux condenser (where the velocity is slow) and the product condenser (in the case of a small diameter vapor tube in a Liebig).

A shotgun product condenser aids in this effect by keeping the flow area maximized through the condenser so the speed is minimum.

Also, rapid vapor collapse (huffing) will upset the vapor split balance too, so how the still is cooled does matter. If your product condenser water outlet is cold, reduce the flow rate so the vapor entering the PC doesn’t rapidly collapse at the inlet. The water outlet should be very warm to the touch.

Does this help?
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Re: VM/LM combinatIon still head

Post by Yummyrum »

Dancing4dan wrote: Wed Nov 24, 2021 4:15 am Yummyrum has a VM with the take off in the narrow section. He has a thread here where he is doing some experimentation. I don’t think he has a LM section but I may be wrong.
Yeah ,mine does LM too , used it a couple of times and then just used VM .

https://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtop ... 4#p7481508

back when I built mine ,it was common to have the Vm take off in the reduced section so you didn’t need to but such a large valve .

Turns out it was pointless . Who cares or even needs 1:1 RR .
I marked my valve at the just closed mark( the lefthand mark) . The next mark is drops for Foreshots and early heads . The next mark is where the quality really dives .The place I run is a little to the right if the second mark .
774C8CAF-8FD0-4627-AD30-AE1D403A06C5.jpeg
774C8CAF-8FD0-4627-AD30-AE1D403A06C5.jpeg (26.31 KiB) Viewed 1243 times
This is a pic of valve . It shows how little open area is needed to actually run it . It shows that I could have quite easily used a much smaller valve as you have done , which would make it even easier to run .
29B13B90-0F89-40E8-BA5E-20D8ABF305BD.jpeg
29B13B90-0F89-40E8-BA5E-20D8ABF305BD.jpeg (33.36 KiB) Viewed 1243 times
All that to say , I think your setup will be a real pleasure to run …. As it is to look at :thumbup:
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Re: VM/LM combinatIon still head

Post by Dancing4dan »

still_stirrin wrote: Wed Nov 24, 2021 9:35 am
Dancing4dan wrote: Wed Nov 24, 2021 4:15 amMy tee is 2x2x3/4.
:
I think vapor split is controlled by how far the VM valve gets opened. Which is only slight I as I understand it…
In a vapor managed (VM) reflux still, the reflux ratio is managed by the ratio of the openings, ie - opening (throat area) to VM valve opening area. So, for a conventional VM with a 1” ID throat and a 1” ID valve, the MINIMUM reflux ratio would be 1:1.

But the maximum would be determined by the throat area divided by the valve’s open area. So, with a valve 1/4 open, the RR would be 1x1 / (1/4 x 1/4) or 16:1, in the case of the 1” throat and 1” valve. And when the valve is closed, the RR is infinity (division by zero)…ALL of the vapor is returned down the column.

In your example D4D, the throat opening is 1” and the valve is 1/2” ID, right? So, the minimum RR is 1 x 1 / (1/2x1/2) = 4:1, because the area is proportional to the square of the diameter, remember. Likewise, if the valve was 1/2 open, then the RR is approximately 1x1 / (1/4 x1/4) = 16:1. If the valve is just cracked open, assume 1/8 open, the RR is then 1x1 / (1/16x1/16) = 256:1, ie - damn near infinity!

And keep in mind that the reflux ratio is the ratio of the vapor that returns down the column to the vapor that passes to the product outlet. Higher RRs give higher purity.

One thing for a VM operation that is critical is the vapor velocities as it can have an affect on the static pressures in the flow stream. If you have excessive velocity in the product condenser line it will tend to unbalance the vapor split between the reflux condenser (where the velocity is slow) and the product condenser (in the case of a small diameter vapor tube in a Liebig).

A shotgun product condenser aids in this effect by keeping the flow area maximized through the condenser so the speed is minimum.

Also, rapid vapor collapse (huffing) will upset the vapor split balance too, so how the still is cooled does matter. If your product condenser water outlet is cold, reduce the flow rate so the vapor entering the PC doesn’t rapidly collapse at the inlet. The water outlet should be very warm to the touch.

Does this help?
ss
Thanks SS. That does help. There have been issues with huffing at times with the same Liebig on the pot still. Need to solve that before getting to far into VM. I have been looking at making a bypass from the submersible pump outlet to the still coolant return line. I might just need to put a “dump valve” in the pump outlet line and dump back to my reservoir. I use a 50 gallon barrel reservoir. I get good stratification of cold water on the bottom and hot water on top as a run progresses. Don’t want to upset that .
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Re: VM/LM combinatIon still head

Post by Dancing4dan »

I marked my valve at the just closed mark( the lefthand mark) . The next mark is drops for Foreshots and early heads . The next mark is where the quality really dives .The place I run is a little to the right if the second mark .
That’s good to know. Pretty fine adjust
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Re: VM/LM combinatIon still head

Post by Dancing4dan »

Cleaning runs completed on Thursday. Vinegar run then ran heads for sacrificial run.

Yesterday I assembled the still and filled it with single malt low wines. Pretty happy with how it worked. Produced very concentrated heads through the LM compared to my pot still.

92% ABV on first run. Once the output from the VM product condenser started to slow slightly the ABV was down to 85% ABV. After that I switched to smaller jars and monitored smell and taste pretty closely just trying to learn how the still was operating.

Things I noticed. Lower product volume due to higher ABV. Took much less time from start to finish run compared to a pot still spirit run. Late hearts smell and taste were different from a pot still run. Hard to describe but not a bad taste. VM output just fell to almost nothing when it got to tails. Turning up power made no significant difference in output once into tails. I pulled a little off the LM at that point just to see what was going on there. :sick:

The VM valve at 50% open produced 92% ABV. At wide open it produced 90% ABV. The run progressed pretty fast. It was only a single batch of low wines.

Looking forward to a larger boiler charge of low wines. The learning continues!

One other thing. I put an air lock into the vent at the top of the column above the reflux condenser. At full power and full boil with both condenser valves closed I managed to flood the column and get bubbling through the air lock. Power was turned down to 75% for most of the run.
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Re: VM/LM combinatIon still head

Post by still_stirrin »

Good observations D4D. I could almost “see” myself running my LM/VM and getting the same results.

Your notes are indeed indicative of the stillhead operation and boiler power/heat input control. And 180 to 190 proof is quite attainable with it.

But I gotta ask; why would you try to reflux a “single malt low wines”? It seems you’ve separated a lot of good flavor from your product and left it in the boiler. I wouldn’t hesitate to reflux a sugar wash low wines, but a nice whiskey is reserved for the potstill (2x). I doubt I’d even triple distill it in the potstill either. But then again, I focus on the beer recipe and fermentation process so I don’t “need” to reflux the flavors out.

Keep up the good work. You’re definitely “in the home stretch” now.
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Re: VM/LM combinatIon still head

Post by Dancing4dan »

still_stirrin wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 6:40 am Good observations D4D. I could almost “see” myself running my LM/VM and getting the same results.

Your notes are indeed indicative of the stillhead operation and boiler power/heat input control. And 180 to 190 proof is quite attainable with it.

But I gotta ask; why would you try to reflux a “single malt low wines”? It seems you’ve separated a lot of good flavor from your product and left it in the boiler. I wouldn’t hesitate to reflux a sugar wash low wines, but a nice whiskey is reserved for the potstill (2x). I doubt I’d even triple distill it in the potstill either. But then again, I focus on the beer recipe and fermentation process so I don’t “need” to reflux the flavors out.

Keep up the good work. You’re definitely “in the home stretch” now.
ss
Thanks SS

That is a good question. I’m getting an off flavour in my product on occasion. I think it is from stressed yeast and as a result have been working on better control of fermentation temperature. I think it is coming from the fermentation side of things because using the same ingredients I get good product without the off flavour. I can detect the off flavour in low wines and know it comes through a spirit run every time it happens.

Early on I thought it may be tails smeared through the occasional run. This was the big reason my spirit runs were done so slow on the pot still. Trying to eliminate what I thought was possibly tails. So slow I was able to get over 80% ABV on the pot still.

I could taste and smell the off flavour in the low wines I used to do initial run on this still. So it got run through reflux and it improved the flavour. Resting before doing blending will tell the tale.

With no previous background in brewing or wine making and no associates that are into brewing or distilling the learning curve has been steep. I rely heavily on reading HD to identify and solve problems. The problem is the old saying, “you don’t know what you don’t know”. The challenge has been first to ID a problem then to find a solution to it by reading and re reading. Trying to find nuggets of wisdom that apply to the problem identified in the large amount of information on HD.

:)
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Re: VM/LM combinatIon still head

Post by Dancing4dan »

So today I re distilled all the product that had the off flavour. See post above for details. Through a little experimentation I believe it came from a malted barley. I also discovered that with reflux the off flavour pushed concentrated more toward the end of hearts and huge in tails

I had various whisky at 124 proof. whiskey that I didn’t like because of this off taste / smell. To impatient to see if time would cure it. Nine months had not made any improvement so it was time to try something else. :)

I ran it through this combination head and packed column. All watered down to 40% it filled up my half beer keg boiler. A little to full but got it done.

Pulled off 2 1/2 gallons at 182 proof with no off flavour or smell. Then That smell started coming through. This probably left quite a bit of alcohol in the pot but I quit once that smell started coming over. I tried shutting down and restarting full reflux for a while but it just wouldn’t go away when product collection was restarted.

So. I was able to turn a ruined product into a usable product with reflux and the LM/VM. Not as much as I started with this morning but without this LM/VM still head and packed column all of it would have been dumped.

Very happy with the still performance as well as the end product I ended up with today.

My wife even liked a orange ginger beer cocktail I made with it. :D Thats a first!
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