Help needed

Vapor, Liquid or Cooling Management. Flutes, plates, etc.

Moderator: Site Moderator

Northsouth
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 81
Joined: Mon Nov 08, 2021 8:41 am

Help needed

Post by Northsouth »

Hi,

I have started building a column, and have really gone out of my comfort zone here. Enjoy figuring it out, but run into questions every 5 minutes. Have zero welding/metal shop skills, or manual skills of any kind for that matter, and therefore hope you can give me some advice.

After a little practice with solder (built an ugly looking parrot), I have now started on a shotgun condenser.
image.png
Just fitted it all together, and have also (after picture) soldered the internal 270 discs. This is to fit inside a 2" pipe, it is 550 mm long. However, there is also going to be a stainless ferrule at the end of this (not received yet), which means I have to leave at least 30-40 mm beyond the end plate. I would therefore prefer to solder the whole thing and slide it in, as it otherwise will be difficult with my fat fingers to get anything done in there. But then come the question:

How do I fit the inlet outlet piping (had 10 mm pipe in mind)? Whatever fitting will also stop the shown assembly from going in. Also, solder seems to not be like steel welding where you can create a quite strong fillet 90 deg, overlap contact is needed in general, I think. Any ideas?
Sporacle
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 1149
Joined: Sun Apr 25, 2021 10:45 pm

Re: Help needed

Post by Sporacle »

Just do a test fit and mark two holes and remove the condensor, drill the holes (that way you won't damage anything) fit everything up and solder it all in, lastly socket fit your 10mm pipe and simply solder them in, it will be plenty strong enough :D
I think that's what you were asking
" you can pick your nose and you can pick your friends; but you can't always wipe your friends off on your saddle" sage advice from Kinky Friedman
Rum Agol
Swill Maker
Posts: 216
Joined: Sat Jun 05, 2021 1:22 am
Location: Scotland

Re: Help needed

Post by Rum Agol »

Another option is to fit 2X2X1/2 inch reducing tees at each end then reduce the 1/2 inch to 10mm. The top of the T's can be cut back to minimise dead areas of coolant flow. The stainless ferrule will need silver soldering.
User avatar
Yummyrum
Global moderator
Posts: 7653
Joined: Sat Jul 06, 2013 2:23 am
Location: Fraser Coast QLD Aussie

Re: Help needed

Post by Yummyrum »

I’d solder the baffles , caps and pipe up first . Like Sporicle said , slid it in and work out where your coolant lines will go ,remove assembly , drill holes and deburr . ( so it can slide back in easily)

Then when your SS ferrules arrive , you can solder the whole thing .

But , this is where it could turn to shite , if your Stainless soldering doesn’t go so well .
Personally I would Braze the end caps to the pipes rather than solder them . That way , when you attempt to solder on the ferules and cap to wall , it all won’t fall apart . , not saying it will , but it ill give you a second chance to get the ferrule soldering right should it not go off as planed .

Regarding coolant connections , you can use stubs of copper pipe . I have always used brass nipples . I get a nipple and cut it n half , file it to the contour of the shell and sweat solder it on . That way ai can screw valves or braided hose fittings with ease .
User avatar
Saltbush Bill
Site Mod
Posts: 9675
Joined: Thu Mar 17, 2011 2:13 am
Location: Northern NSW Australia

Re: Help needed

Post by Saltbush Bill »

Northsouth wrote: Sat Nov 20, 2021 12:35 pm I have started building a column, and have really gone out of my comfort zone here. Enjoy figuring it out, but run into questions every 5 minutes. Have zero welding/metal shop skills, or manual skills of any kind for that matter,
Great to see you having a go. You might be surprised at how many of us started out the same way.
Plenty here who will answer your questions and try to help where they can if or when you run into problems.
There are many short cuts/easier ways when building a plated column.....read through as many builds of other peoples as you can.....you will pick up a lot of useful hints.
cob
Master of Distillation
Posts: 2691
Joined: Sun Jul 26, 2009 4:38 pm
Location: little puffs of dust where my feet used to be

Re: Help needed

Post by cob »

Prairiepiss posted a tutorial about making a tool to do a pull through for his shotgun build.
be water my friend
User avatar
NZChris
Master of Distillation
Posts: 13062
Joined: Tue Apr 23, 2013 2:42 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: Help needed

Post by NZChris »

The hose tails don't have to stick out the sides like you see in nearly every drawing and pic. The condenser only fills with water to height of the outlet, so many of those images you've seen have some empty volume at the top, decreasing their efficiency.

Hose tails can be be put in the end caps if that helps you. I use soft copper tube and bend it to point down so that gravity doesn't kink the hose when it's hot.
Northsouth
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 81
Joined: Mon Nov 08, 2021 8:41 am

Re: Help needed

Post by Northsouth »

Thanks for all input, very glad to be on this forum. I finally finished it, in the end I used a 12mm fitting with a tiny flange (nut and connector that was sawed off) grinded down so nothing was sticking inside, then solder. All I need now are the stainless flanges to arrive, and then I have a condenser.Tested with full pressure tap water and increadably there were no leaks, despite very lamentable solering. Will post when this assembly is done. Enjoying!
User avatar
Saltbush Bill
Site Mod
Posts: 9675
Joined: Thu Mar 17, 2011 2:13 am
Location: Northern NSW Australia

Re: Help needed

Post by Saltbush Bill »

buy your self some small files , handy for cleaning up excess solder, the little chainsaw sharpening files work well to get into corners, flat files for other jobs.
cob
Master of Distillation
Posts: 2691
Joined: Sun Jul 26, 2009 4:38 pm
Location: little puffs of dust where my feet used to be

Re: Help needed

Post by cob »

Saltbush Bill wrote: Sun Nov 21, 2021 4:55 pm buy your self some small files , handy for cleaning up excess solder, the little chainsaw sharpening files work well to get into corners, flat files for other jobs.
paraffin wax on those files helps reduce clogging the file teeth.
be water my friend
User avatar
Yummyrum
Global moderator
Posts: 7653
Joined: Sat Jul 06, 2013 2:23 am
Location: Fraser Coast QLD Aussie

Re: Help needed

Post by Yummyrum »

Sounds not too bad for someone that recons they’re not to good at soldering Northsouth . :thumbup:

Just make sure you have that copper shiny clean when yiu attempt to solder in that ferrule .

Great tip Cob , didn’t know that one , but boy does the solder clog the files .
cob
Master of Distillation
Posts: 2691
Joined: Sun Jul 26, 2009 4:38 pm
Location: little puffs of dust where my feet used to be

Re: Help needed

Post by cob »

Yummyrum wrote: Sun Nov 21, 2021 8:29 pm Sounds not too bad for someone that recons they’re not to good at soldering Northsouth . :thumbup:

Just make sure you have that copper shiny clean when yiu attempt to solder in that ferrule .

Great tip Cob , didn’t know that one , but boy does the solder clog the files .
aluminum is almost as bad, and some soft steels. I even wax rotary files and some rotary stones

depending on the material being assaulted. aluminum being the most frequent offender.
be water my friend
Northsouth
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 81
Joined: Mon Nov 08, 2021 8:41 am

Re: Help needed

Post by Northsouth »

Well, my beginner's luck has now ran out, it seems.

When getting steel ferrules and trying to solder them on the shoutgun condenser, solder from the top/bottom plate fell off, and I guess it has to be remade. Have tried to fix it by melting solder, and spent too much. Now it is rattling inside:-) A mess, in other words.

A problem is that I live in Europe, and the 2" piping is really 54 mm (OD), so there is a gap of about 1-2 mm on the inside. Have mechanically fitted a band made of a copper flat, and that made it stop wiggling, at least.

Another issue is that there is absolutely no way to get my 97% silver solder to stick on the stainless. Have tried various things, with and without paste, sanding down, preheating,even soldering directly on it. Any idea what I am doing wrong? The solder either just fall off in droplets, or it sticks a little, but can be pealed of with a fingernail, not sticking at all. Should I just forget about the ss ferrules and spend on copper ones?
NormandieStill
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 1738
Joined: Wed Dec 30, 2020 10:17 pm
Location: Northwest France

Re: Help needed

Post by NormandieStill »

You need a different flux for stainless. Assuming you're using a standard flux for sweating copper joints, it won't work on SS.

I use Griffon S-39 Inox (made by a Belgian firm I think) which was the easiest to get hold of here (France). I find that slightly preheating the joint helps the flux to stay where it's put.

A lot of people on the forum swear by the Stay-Brite products but they're hard to get hold of in Europe.

The copper ferrules will certainly be easier to solder, but I do wonder about their longevity compared to stainless. If you only tear down your still occasionally they should be fine, but if you have to pack it away after every run I'd be worried about them falling apart. Persevere with the stainless ones. Once you've got the right flux and get used to the temperatures, soldering stainless gets easier and opens up all manner of possibilities. I was quoted 400EUR+ for MIG welding two ferrules to a 30L keg that only cost me 20EUR. I've put a ferrule on a stainless saucepan lid to make a gin still, and will soon be doing the same to make a slightly larger stovetop still and will be adding a bottom drain to my keg. I'd be down several thousand euros if I had to pay someone to do the work, although soon I will approach the point at which a TIG welder may become a "reasonable" investment!
"I have a potstill that smears like a fresh plowed coon on the highway" - Jimbo

A little spoon feeding *For New & Novice Distillers
User avatar
Yummyrum
Global moderator
Posts: 7653
Joined: Sat Jul 06, 2013 2:23 am
Location: Fraser Coast QLD Aussie

Re: Help needed

Post by Yummyrum »

I agree with Normandiestill, you probably aren’t using the correct flux . The word Paste was the giveaway .

Stainless steel flux is a liquid that contains Zinc Chloride .
Some also contain a bit if Hydrochloric Aid . (In fact the flux is simply made by dissolving zinc in Hydrochloric acid .)

So check some local fluxes for Zinc Chloride .

The other most common reason for solder nit sticking to Stainless is you get it too hot . It needs very very gentle heat applied slowly as it is a terrible conductor of heat , the surface where you apply heat will get excessively hot before it transferred into the body . So never localize flame ,

As a general rule as soon as the liquid flux starts to sizzle , move the heat away and apply more flux with a hog bristle brush . (Never use a plastic brush .)
Put the flame back a little and as soon as the flux sizzles again , try to wipe on the solder . If the SS is the right temp , the solder should feel like you a rubbing a crayon on …. Like you are painting with solder .

If when you touch the solder on , it instantly melts into balls and rolls off , you were too hot . Probably also at this stage , you have cooked the flux and the oxidised the SS surface will need to be cleaned again .
Sporacle
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 1149
Joined: Sun Apr 25, 2021 10:45 pm

Re: Help needed

Post by Sporacle »

Same as Normandie, ss specific flux and I've found you need to pay particular attention to how you heat the joint. I find if I'm struggling that it is generally because I'm not paying enough attention to the copper and concentrating to much on the stainless. I give the stainless a fairly good pre heat, not glowing or anything like that just a gentle heat. Also clean, clean and when you think the joints are clean...give them.another clean :thumbup:
Posted the same time as Yummy, just do it how he said :D
" you can pick your nose and you can pick your friends; but you can't always wipe your friends off on your saddle" sage advice from Kinky Friedman
cob
Master of Distillation
Posts: 2691
Joined: Sun Jul 26, 2009 4:38 pm
Location: little puffs of dust where my feet used to be

Re: Help needed

Post by cob »

There are several soldering tutorials here on HD and yummyrum just saved you from having to look for them.
be water my friend
Northsouth
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 81
Joined: Mon Nov 08, 2021 8:41 am

Re: Help needed

Post by Northsouth »

Again,, thank you all for giving advice, it is truly great to have found this forum. I did indeed read a lot of the info around here, but never found an agreed answer. What I take away is cleaning is key, acetone is a way (from one of the other threads), get better "paste", maybe by amazon, and don't put in too much heat. Are you all sure this can be done? I will certainly do my part!
User avatar
Yummyrum
Global moderator
Posts: 7653
Joined: Sat Jul 06, 2013 2:23 am
Location: Fraser Coast QLD Aussie

Re: Help needed

Post by Yummyrum »

Forget Flux Paste …..You need liquid flux .

You might get away with flux paste on Copper to copper , but it is the wrong type of flux for Stainless

Also , if you have cooked the Stainless , simply cleaning in Acetone is not enough . You need to physically remove the cooked surface with a bit of fine emery paper , then use Acetone .
Setsumi
Distiller
Posts: 1371
Joined: Tue Sep 07, 2010 10:23 pm
Location: Central South Africa

Re: Help needed

Post by Setsumi »

As said you need specific flux for stainless steel.

BUT my shotgun condenser has a copper slip coupler that fits onto the take off. I wrap the take off that is the same OD as the shotgun with teflon tape an the slip coupler fits tight on that. The slip coupler has an edge in the middle, that helps holding the end plate in place for soldering.
My first flute
My press
My twins
My controller
My wife tells me I fell from heaven covered in white. Why did they let me fall?
Northsouth
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 81
Joined: Mon Nov 08, 2021 8:41 am

Re: Help needed

Post by Northsouth »

So it was the solder! Thanks to all of you for pointing that out, especially to NormandieStill and Yummyrum that pointed me exactly at what was needed. I got the Griffin 39, and it all seems a bit easier now, it all flows the way you said it would. Nothing made sense of anything anyone said (tinning, preheting, etc.) untill today when I tried with a proper liquid flux. It has been said in many topics here, I know. For an absolute beginner, I could not imagine that a detail like that would have that much influence, but this is in the end the joy of this, at least in my case. Later I will ask you how to ferment potatoes:-)
User avatar
still_stirrin
Master of Distillation
Posts: 10337
Joined: Tue Mar 18, 2014 7:01 am
Location: where the buffalo roam, and the deer & antelope play

Re: Help needed

Post by still_stirrin »

Northsouth wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 4:15 pm… Later, I will ask you how to ferment potatoes.
Not worth the effort. Too much work with not much fermentable material. There are much better sources for convertible starches. Do an aggressive search on the website to find many discussions regarding potatoes.
ss
My LM/VM & Potstill: My build thread
My Cadco hotplate modification thread: Hotplate Build
My stock pot gin still: stock pot potstill
My 5-grain Bourbon recipe: Special K
Northsouth
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 81
Joined: Mon Nov 08, 2021 8:41 am

Re: Help needed

Post by Northsouth »

So the project is advancing.

I made the primitive sketch in word just to keep overview of what would have to be bought, and what have to be manufactured. Getting close now, just need a bit more copper mesh packing and the pot. This is coming from China, and was ordered before I decided to have a go at it myself. Nevertheless, it has been a great learning experience so far, my skills were at the start 0. They are still close to that, but it has been a start of something. If you see any obvious flaws, please let me have it:-)

Thanks anyway for this forum, couldn't have gotten this far without it.
column.jpg
Northsouth
NormandieStill
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 1738
Joined: Wed Dec 30, 2020 10:17 pm
Location: Northwest France

Re: Help needed

Post by NormandieStill »

I see that you have a triclamp end cap. You can leak test (albeit not under much pressure), by using it to block the end of a tube and filling the tube with water. That way you'll see straight away any little leaks that you may have and you'll be a step or two further on when the rest of your bits arrive from China (My recent experience has been that shipping is fairly rapid, as the new EU VAT regs seem to have speeded up customs clearance times.
"I have a potstill that smears like a fresh plowed coon on the highway" - Jimbo

A little spoon feeding *For New & Novice Distillers
Oatmeal
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 356
Joined: Sat Jun 19, 2021 5:28 am
Location: Colordo

Re: Help needed

Post by Oatmeal »

cob wrote: Sun Nov 21, 2021 6:24 pm
paraffin wax on those files helps reduce clogging the file teeth.
Sometimes it's the little things that you never would have thought of....

Way to go Northsouth! You're almost ready for the hard part....running the durn thing :wink:
Through the magic of alchemy, our spirits live on.
Northsouth
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 81
Joined: Mon Nov 08, 2021 8:41 am

Re: Help needed

Post by Northsouth »

Great with the encouragement, thanks buddy!
Now a question, again. I have read a number of threads about the reflux coil, but have sometimes trouble pull a conclusion from all the posts, as they often differ in opinion. (I think this is why newbies like myself ask the same questions over and over, the amount of information and opinion is just overwhelming). Anyway, here it goes:

For the reflux coil at the top, the way I have understood how this should work, it actually has to knock down all the heat that is put in at the pot to be in balance in full reflux. There are some calculator around, but this require quite a lot of known data that I don't have. Input temp, flow, etc. will vary, and depending on how I set it up, which is not yet clear before I actually start. So to be specific, will a 3,5 m 8mm OD (6mm ID) with some copper mesh around be enough with some margin? I don't want ethanol vapors to escape at the top, that could be a bit unhealthy if there is a spark nearby..
drmiller100
Rumrunner
Posts: 679
Joined: Wed Mar 11, 2009 9:13 pm

Re: Help needed

Post by drmiller100 »

How big is your heater?
And repeating, 40 inches of 5/16 copper wound knock it down?

I know for a fact that 40 inches of 5/16 copper tubing will knock down 4000 watts at 3 psi with a delta of about 60 degrees F to the cooling fluid
Now I know how you claim azeo so easy, it's based on a meat thermometer. :lol:
User avatar
Yummyrum
Global moderator
Posts: 7653
Joined: Sat Jul 06, 2013 2:23 am
Location: Fraser Coast QLD Aussie

Re: Help needed

Post by Yummyrum »

On a 2” , you won’t be able to push much more than 2kW before it floods .

So yes , that coil you have will be perfectly adequate .
That is just a little more than I used to make mine .

Just don’t flatten it too much or you may restrict flow to where it may become an issue .
Having said that , I wound a double coil with no salt . It can be done and its not as hard as it looks if you take your time .
drmiller100
Rumrunner
Posts: 679
Joined: Wed Mar 11, 2009 9:13 pm

Re: Help needed

Post by drmiller100 »

Also if the 5/16 is used you can anneal it to make it easier to work
Now I know how you claim azeo so easy, it's based on a meat thermometer. :lol:
Northsouth
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 81
Joined: Mon Nov 08, 2021 8:41 am

Re: Help needed

Post by Northsouth »

Again, thanks a lot. Haven't actually made the coil yet, the dimensions were from an offer on amazon. Already tried though, but with a way too tiny coil, and thin tubing 6mm od 4 mm inner. 2m total. I will use that for something else, maybe but it on the gril, straighten it out, heat again. Have some wild ideas now on making a reflux cooler of a very unorthodox style. Maybe later, first I need something that works.
Post Reply