Getting a bigger boiler, how to keep the same run time?

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Evil_Dark
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Getting a bigger boiler, how to keep the same run time?

Post by Evil_Dark »

Hi!
I'm stepping up the boiler, I currently have a 10.5 gal with a 3kW internal, I do found a 20gal. that I can adapt to my needs.
Currently, in pot still It takes around 4-5h to make a full run (heat up until the last drop taken). This amount of time is okay with my "free time", I'm afraid that with the bigger boiler I may need more time to do a run, which will be a pain for me ...
I do have a 2in reflux column that I don't use the condenser when in pot still. If I increase my heating wattage, and increase the column diameter for a, let say, 3in, can I expect to stay in the same time to distill twice more product?

I try to understand what is determining the output speed in a setup...

Thanks for enlightening me!
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Re: Getting a bigger boiler, how to keep the same run time?

Post by bluefish_dist »

For a pot still speed is related to power. More power, more product out. As you go bigger you need more power to warm it up in the same amount of time. Once running if you have more power in, you need more cooling as more heat is going out. So in short, bigger boiler, bigger burner/element, and bigger condenser to keep the same run time or to run faster. Column diameter has no effect on speed.

A column still also needs a larger diameter to run faster as well as more power and cooling. Area is related to speed, so if 2” is base, 3” is 2x as fast, 4” is 4x, and 6” is 8x provided you have the power and cooling needed.
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Re: Getting a bigger boiler, how to keep the same run time?

Post by subbrew »

The simple answer is you can't. You can get close on stripping runs by adding enough more power that you can run harder and faster. I would recommend two elements as it gives more surface area for the heat transfer. But for the spirit run in pot still mode you will have almost twice the volume to take off and if you want to keep a pencil lead size stream to minimize smearing it will take the much longer.

In reflux mode by going to a larger column, three or four inches you can run more power without flooding and thus have a higher take off rate. So for a reflux run you might be able to get close to your present times.
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Re: Getting a bigger boiler, how to keep the same run time?

Post by NZChris »

If you are stripping with a pot still, add a preheater. You only have one wait for heat up regardless of how many strips you are doing, use the same elements, save on cooling water and the size of the wash is only limited by the time you want to spend stripping it.
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Re: Getting a bigger boiler, how to keep the same run time?

Post by Yummyrum »

subbrew wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 11:17 am 'tBut for the spirit run in pot still mode you will have almost twice the volume to take off and if you want to keep a pencil lead size stream to minimize smearing it will take the much longer.
I have to disagree .

The problem is the common thinking that you need a pencil lead size stream .
Sure , it is a good rule of thumb , but it is not the aim n all cases .

If you are doubling the boiler and doubling the volume in it , you can double the power as Bluefish says and yes , you will have double the takeoff rate ….. the thickness of two pencil leads if that is how you want to picture it .

So the answer is yes , if you double the amount of liquid , you can double the power and the run time will be the same .


Also , if you half the boiler charge , you need to half the power , or yes you will be smearing , but now your takeoff rate is half a pencil lead thickness .

The Pencil lead stream size is a good description to help beginners to visualise how hard to run a typical 8-10gal spirit run . Unfortunately , it gets miss understood and taken as the target take off rate regardless of boiler charge size .
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Re: Getting a bigger boiler, how to keep the same run time?

Post by Evil_Dark »

Yummy, thanks, it help me visualize the goal. It is harder to evaluate the flow coming our when it's a bigger pencil stream...

But that is getting me thinking of something: If I build two identical 2in reflux columns, and I put them on the same boiler (simmetrically), I then double the output? (If the power is increased accordingly)
Is this can be a solution? It will be a headache to adjust two reflux condenser, but not impossible...
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Re: Getting a bigger boiler, how to keep the same run time?

Post by Hillbilly Popstar »

Evil_Dark wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 11:03 am
Currently, in pot still It takes around 4-5h to make a full run (heat up until the last drop taken).
Wait....

You have a 4-5 hr run time on a 10.5 gallon still?!

Are we talking stripping runs or spirit runs?

A spirit run on my 8 gallon is usually around 11 hours and can go as long long as 13 hrs. Am I missing something here?
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Re: Getting a bigger boiler, how to keep the same run time?

Post by NZChris »

With my 8.5 gallon pot still, I'm taking two hours per stripping run for a pukey wash and less than an hour and twenty for a sugar wash. That's only the distilling time, the first charge takes time to heat up and start coming over, but the next strip is pouring less than 15 minutes after the previous strip was stopped.
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Re: Getting a bigger boiler, how to keep the same run time?

Post by Yummyrum »

When it comes to takeoff rates , it should be referenced go spirit runs .

You can strip as hard and fast as you like . You can use use pre heaters or Continous stripping stills .

But when it comes to a Pot still spirit run , stream size verses boiler charge is important.

If you are smashing it out in a few hours , you are going way too fast . If it takes you more than 12 hours , you are running way slower than you need to be .
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Re: Getting a bigger boiler, how to keep the same run time?

Post by NZChris »

That's a matter of opinion and experience and different products too Yummy. E.g., I only run my rums slow until the nastiest of the nail varnish is gone and it's obviously into a keeper jar, then crank the heat up for the hearts because I want some smearing, then leave the dial alone for the rest of the run and let it naturally slow due to the diminishing alcohol content.
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Re: Getting a bigger boiler, how to keep the same run time?

Post by Evil_Dark »

Hillbilly Popstar wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 12:24 am Wait....

You have a 4-5 hr run time on a 10.5 gallon still?!

Are we talking stripping runs or spirit runs?

A spirit run on my 8 gallon is usually around 11 hours and can go as long long as 13 hrs. Am I missing something here?
Sorry, you are right. My boiler has a 10.5 gal capacity, most of the times I run 5-6 gallons batches ( i Use 6gal pails as fermenters). It takes me 4-5hrs to make a spirit run, I am a fan of single runs (no stripping run, directly a spirit run). When I load up to 8 gallons, it takes more like 6 hours, depending on how I manage the tails. Now that I use the hybrid mode between the pot still and reflux, I add roughly 1/2 to 1 hour to the process, as I start the reflux mode just before hitting the tails in pot mode, then I squeeze the output and boost the yield and alcool content, and add nice tails flavors to the run.

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Re: Getting a bigger boiler, how to keep the same run time?

Post by Hillbilly Popstar »

That makes a bit more sense
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Re: Getting a bigger boiler, how to keep the same run time?

Post by ShineonCrazyDiamond »

9-11 gallons 6 hours in a 15.5 keg. . Hillbilly, I think you need a touch more power.
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Re: Getting a bigger boiler, how to keep the same run time?

Post by Delloman »

Ya more power I have 26g boiler with propane and 4in flute my runs are less then 6 hours do you have the ability for a 5k element? Or add a belt heater to help with heat up?
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Re: Getting a bigger boiler, how to keep the same run time?

Post by Evil_Dark »

Delloman wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 9:49 am Ya more power I have 26g boiler with propane and 4in flute my runs are less then 6 hours do you have the ability for a 5k element? Or add a belt heater to help with heat up?
Sure I can add more elements. For my 20gal boiler, I planned to use my 3KW, and add another 1500W. I will also add another 2in triclamp inlet to the bottom, so I will be able to add anything else if needed.

I am thinking about adding 2 columns to this boiler, I think it might work... If I do have enough KW to produce enough vapors, it should work if there is 2 identical reflux columns?

The heads compressions would have to be done with only one column, then run the hearts with both should cut the production time in half?
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Re: Getting a bigger boiler, how to keep the same run time?

Post by Hillbilly Popstar »

ShineonCrazyDiamond wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 8:13 am 9-11 gallons 6 hours in a 15.5 keg. . Hillbilly, I think you need a touch more power.
I run on propane. Been sticking to a pencil lead stream.
Iirc my last couple runs finished up in about 9 hours, including heat up time.

I will say I also routinely run DEEP into the tails.

I like to collect the flavored water that comes I over after almost all the achy is gone and use it to temper my spirit after cuts. I have been able to capture some phenomenal flavors and complexity this way. It's worked so well for me that I am not sure why more people here don't do it. Thinking about posting a new topic on the matter, but in worried I will get flamed for some unforseen reasons.
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Re: Getting a bigger boiler, how to keep the same run time?

Post by ShineonCrazyDiamond »

Nah, you have your reasons, do what you like. You asked what you were missing, I was just contributing. I have 5500w, 13 gallons full low wines is 50 minutes heat up, and all done by 6 if I go deep. But I don't go to 0 abv. I cut when I feel I'm not losing much more. Vodka is super slow, but I cut at first sniff of tails. So about 5 hours.
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Re: Getting a bigger boiler, how to keep the same run time?

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Hillbilly Popstar wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 2:37 pm I will say I also routinely run DEEP into the tails.

I like to collect the flavored water that comes I over after almost all the achy is gone and use it to temper my spirit after cuts. I have been able to capture some phenomenal flavors and complexity this way. It's worked so well for me that I am not sure why more people here don't do it. Thinking about posting a new topic on the matter, but in worried I will get flamed for some unforseen reasons.
I find the idea interesting. You're producing your own distilled water from a charge that is already hot... not exactly pure water but hey, tasty sweet water sounds appealing to me.

About the "unforseen" reasons I would expect one of them to be the necessity to have to distill that chunk of pretty useless stuff in between. I can understand that it could easily be considered expensive but up to now I've always read about people stopping based on the output ABV. It's the first time I see someone using that portion of the distillation (and even going there)... I wouldn't be surprised if most never tried it because it's customary to consider the ABV mark we stop at.
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Re: Getting a bigger boiler, how to keep the same run time?

Post by Hillbilly Popstar »

OnceAlive wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 3:08 pm
Hillbilly Popstar wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 2:37 pm I will say I also routinely run DEEP into the tails.

I like to collect the flavored water that comes I over after almost all the achy is gone and use it to temper my spirit after cuts. I have been able to capture some phenomenal flavors and complexity this way. It's worked so well for me that I am not sure why more people here don't do it. Thinking about posting a new topic on the matter, but in worried I will get flamed for some unforseen reasons.
I find the idea interesting. You're producing your own distilled water from a charge that is already hot... not exactly pure water but hey, tasty sweet water sounds appealing to me.

About the "unforseen" reasons I would expect one of them to be the necessity to have to distill that chunk of pretty useless stuff in between. I can understand that it could easily be considered expensive but up to now I've always read about people stopping based on the output ABV. It's the first time I see someone using that portion of the distillation (and even going there)... I wouldn't be surprised if most never tried it because it's customary to consider the ABV mark we stop at.
I dont wanna hijack this thread, but in the past when I have hinted at this practice I was told it isn't worth the extra resources (electricity and propane) to keep running that long. But I find a night and day difference between tempering with plain water and tempering with "sweet water"

What I am currently experimenting with is whether it's better to use the "sweet water" from the end of a strip or the end of a spirit run in which I've added some backins or fresh wash.

I dont think this is the place to speak further on the matter. Mayne I'll done my flame suit and make a new thread.
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Re: Getting a bigger boiler, how to keep the same run time?

Post by OnceAlive »

Thinking about it, once the run is finish one could dump some of the backset to enable a shorter strip time to get to the flavored sweet water?
Hillbilly Popstar wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 3:42 pm I dont think this is the place to speak further on the matter. Mayne I'll done my flame suit and make a new thread.
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Re: Getting a bigger boiler, how to keep the same run time?

Post by RC Al »

Evil_Dark wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 12:46 pm I am thinking about adding 2 columns to this boiler, I think it might work... If I do have enough KW to produce enough vapors, it should work if there is 2 identical reflux columns?
The heads compressions would have to be done with only one column, then run the hearts with both should cut the production time in half?
I think that is madness, but in theory it would work. You would have to run both columns from the start I recon and run 2 sets of cut jars to get a properly cut product.
Your doubling some potential risks and will have to juggle both units at once, creating many more.

2 complete 2" units would be much more expensive (and a bit heavier) than a single 3" unit for a similar output rate and add a great deal of stress while running, the only "good" reason I can think to do it would be to compensate for a very low ceiling.
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Re: Getting a bigger boiler, how to keep the same run time?

Post by Saltbush Bill »

I think I'm with you RC......its not the first time this idea has been bought up. Much more trouble than its worth, just bite the bullet and build a bigger better still.
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Re: Getting a bigger boiler, how to keep the same run time?

Post by Delloman »

Ya just buy or build a bigger one using 2 sounds like a pain and the above is right increasing an inch in diameter has more value.
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Re: Getting a bigger boiler, how to keep the same run time?

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Ok got that. Just because there were mitigated opinions about having the double output from a 3in columns VS a 2in one...
And thats the goal, doubling th output. If a 3in will almos achieve this, I'm in to build a 3in!
Will the final condenser dimension have the same impact on the output flow? I do have a very long shotgun condenser (30in) in 2in diameter, It will be efficient enough to knock down the vapors created with a 3in reflux column? Or it will cause the bottleneck?
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Re: Getting a bigger boiler, how to keep the same run time?

Post by EricTheRed »

I can run my 3" packed column at full tilt and the 2" x 24" shotgun cools it no problem - and i just have a trickle of flow - can still hold my hand under it
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Re: Getting a bigger boiler, how to keep the same run time?

Post by NormandieStill »

Evil_Dark wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 4:44 am Ok got that. Just because there were mitigated opinions about having the double output from a 3in columns VS a 2in one...
And thats the goal, doubling th output. If a 3in will almos achieve this, I'm in to build a 3in!
Will the final condenser dimension have the same impact on the output flow? I do have a very long shotgun condenser (30in) in 2in diameter, It will be efficient enough to knock down the vapors created with a 3in reflux column? Or it will cause the bottleneck?
My liebig will handle my pot still running at 3kW when stripping. This produces around 5L/hour (guesstimated). When running in CCVM mode on my 2" column, I have a take-off of around 1L/hr to maintain quality. Moving to a 3" column would theoretically double the output (assuming a corresponding increase in power) so 2L/hr. Still far below the 5L/hr limit of my condenser. Your shotgun is apparently the same length as my liebig so even if it's only double barrelled you should be fine!
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Re: Getting a bigger boiler, how to keep the same run time?

Post by RockinRockies »

Saltbush Bill wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 2:40 am I think I'm with you RC......its not the first time this idea has been bought up. Much more trouble than its worth, just bite the bullet and build a bigger better still.
That's what I was thinking.
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Re: Getting a bigger boiler, how to keep the same run time?

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Evil_Dark wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 4:44 am Ok got that. Just because there were mitigated opinions about having the double output from a 3in columns VS a 2in one...
And thats the goal, doubling th output. If a 3in will almos achieve this, I'm in to build a 3in!
Will the final condenser dimension have the same impact on the output flow? I do have a very long shotgun condenser (30in) in 2in diameter, It will be efficient enough to knock down the vapors created with a 3in reflux column? Or it will cause the bottleneck?
Build a 4", its 4x a 2"... Harder to outgrow!
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