copper mesh in regular pot still question

Vapor, Liquid or Cooling Management. Flutes, plates, etc.

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Grappa-Gringo
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copper mesh in regular pot still question

Post by Grappa-Gringo »

I've been using a 5 gal and 10 gal pot still with propane for some time, and never thought of this or attempted this:
Would it be beneficial to pack a regular 2 inch column with some copper mesh to get a bit of drip to fall back into the pot? Like I said, I've never
thought about this until now.... simple question.... appreciate the help gg
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Re: copper mesh in regular pot still question

Post by TwoSheds »

You would get some benefit from the copper contact, especially if you don't have any elsewhere in your still, but the reflux would still be minimal after things heat up.

If you search for 'passive reflux' you'll find a lot of feedback on this type of thing, but basically you're limited by how much heat your riser (column normally refers to a reflux still, in a pot still it's a 'riser') is transferring to the air around it, and since air is a poor conductor of heat you're not going to get a lot.

Now, if you get some different shapes like a helmet or onion on there then there is more debate to be had because you're adding both surface area to transfer heat as well as unique geometry. These are likely more effective in copper than stainless as well since copper is much more efficient at transferring heat. Your vapor speed will also play heavily into the equation as well.

Hope that helps. I'm sure others will chime in as well.

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Re: copper mesh in regular pot still question

Post by Grappa-Gringo »

TWOSHEDS- thanks for the info... I should have included the following- I've got a 2 inch copper riser coming from the boiler that's about 33 inches in height... so contact with copper is all around this rig. I run it hard and fast, so it heats up pretty good. Would you put more than one roll of copper in there or ? Usually takes me about 35 min to get my first drips (which I throw out) from the point of lightening it up.
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Re: copper mesh in regular pot still question

Post by Salt Must Flow »

I've always put 4 rolls of copper mesh in the base of the riser in my pot still because it's 100% stainless steel. The copper discolors so I assume it's doing what copper does in the vapor path. I've never tried running without some copper so I couldn't tell you what the difference is. It certainly won't hurt. I've never noticed any negative odors or flavor that is typically associated with having a lack of copper.

My riser is very well insulated so mine shouldn't produce much if any passive reflux. It's insulated because I also use those parts as my reflux column. Without inducing reflux in some manor, the copper mesh will not do much of anything other than introduce copper in the vapor path.
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Re: copper mesh in regular pot still question

Post by TwoSheds »

Personally, I don't think it takes much, and I just use one roll about 6" long. I roll it tight enough and big enough that it stays in place in the riser but isn't hard to slide in and out.

I also haven't done the comparison without copper, but if you want to take the deep dive this article is very interesting:

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdf ... .tb00450.x
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Re: copper mesh in regular pot still question

Post by kiwi Bruce »

The reason for using copper in a pot still set-up is because copper is the catalyst in the conversion of organic acids, (along with alcohol and heat), into esters in the wash in the beer run for whiskeys, rums and other flavored liquors. I put cut 1/2 inch pieces of copper pipe into the bottom of my SS beer still.
Last edited by kiwi Bruce on Fri Jun 24, 2022 6:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: copper mesh in regular pot still question

Post by Chauncey »

kiwi Bruce wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 8:48 am The reason for using copper in a pot still set-up is because copper is the catalyst in the conversion of organic acids, (along with alcohol and heat), into esters in the wash in the beer run for whiskeys, runs and other flavored liquors. I put cut 1/2 inch pieces of copper pipe into the bottom of my SS beer still.
Afaik copper contact is promoted removes sulfur compounds and associated off flavors. Didn't know about the Ester catalyst thing I thought other acids did that.
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Re: copper mesh in regular pot still question

Post by TwoSheds »

kiwi Bruce wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 8:48 am The reason for using copper in a pot still set-up is because copper is the catalyst in the conversion of organic acids, (along with alcohol and heat), into esters in the wash in the beer run for whiskeys, runs and other flavored liquors. I put cut 1/2 inch pieces of copper pipe into the bottom of my SS beer still.
Interesting! This isn't something that comes up much in discussion here, but a cursory web search for 'copper ester development' surfaced plenty of research to support that there's something there. I'll need to start chucking some copper in the kettle!

It's also supported by one of the conclusions in the article I linked to above which states:
In these laboratory scale distillations, copper was found to reduce the level of this compound best when placed in the wash still condenser or spirit still pot.
Thanks Kiwi Bruce.

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Re: copper mesh in regular pot still question

Post by NZChris »

Seeing as you already have a copper riser, I doubt you'll notice much difference.

Have you got copper in the boiler?
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Re: copper mesh in regular pot still question

Post by Chauncey »

TwoSheds wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 9:43 am
kiwi Bruce wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 8:48 am The reason for using copper in a pot still set-up is because copper is the catalyst in the conversion of organic acids, (along with alcohol and heat), into esters in the wash in the beer run for whiskeys, runs and other flavored liquors. I put cut 1/2 inch pieces of copper pipe into the bottom of my SS beer still.
Interesting! This isn't something that comes up much in discussion here, but a cursory web search for 'copper ester development' surfaced plenty of research to support that there's something there. I'll need to start chucking some copper in the kettle!

It's also supported by one of the conclusions in the article I linked to above which states:
In these laboratory scale distillations, copper was found to reduce the level of this compound best when placed in the wash still condenser or spirit still pot.
Thanks Kiwi Bruce.

TwoSheds
Yea it's odd that such a thing is so understated. Interesting
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Re: copper mesh in regular pot still question

Post by Dancing4dan »

Grappa-Gringo wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 6:01 am I've been using a 5 gal and 10 gal pot still with propane for some time, and never thought of this or attempted this:
Would it be beneficial to pack a regular 2 inch column with some copper mesh to get a bit of drip to fall back into the pot? Like I said, I've never
thought about this until now.... simple question.... appreciate the help gg
Copper mesh in the riser is how I pot still. I do this for both stripping and spirit runs. It does two things. Small amount of passive reflux and it traps oils. Trapping oils allows me to go deeper into useable tails for flavour without a cloudy product.
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Re: copper mesh in regular pot still question

Post by TwoSheds »

Dancing4dan wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 2:58 pm Copper mesh in the riser is how I pot still. I do this for both stripping and spirit runs. It does two things. Small amount of passive reflux and it traps oils. Trapping oils allows me to go deeper into useable tails for flavour without a cloudy product.
And now there's another completely new-to-me but plausible reason for copper in the vapor path. Given the oil I sometimes see on used copper plates and mesh (esp. with grains) I can't argue...

How much do you use?

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Re: copper mesh in regular pot still question

Post by BoomTown »

Can’t help here. My rig is copper end to end, and been using copper mesh and copper cloth exclusively since 0’16.

Stainless is cheaper, but I am old school, as are the most respected commercial guys. IMHO Can’t have too much copper in the path….my only compromise has been using agates in the bottom of my pot as a heat sink to regulate the boil produced by my hotplate’s auto power on and power off nonsense.

Need to do some cleaning before tomorrow’s beer run will post picks in the after noon.
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Re: copper mesh in regular pot still question

Post by NZChris »

I've been getting my rums close to distilling, then setting the heat to let them idle for at least half an hour for extra esterification for years. The subsequent strips are in the preheater with a copper heating coil for the whole of each stripping run. I originally put the second element in the still to shorten the heat up time, but now I use it to quickly get the first rum wash to nearly distilling temperature then switch to just enough Watts to maintain it.
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Re: copper mesh in regular pot still question

Post by Dancing4dan »

TwoSheds wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 5:03 pm
Dancing4dan wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 2:58 pm Copper mesh in the riser is how I pot still. I do this for both stripping and spirit runs. It does two things. Small amount of passive reflux and it traps oils. Trapping oils allows me to go deeper into useable tails for flavour without a cloudy product.
And now there's another completely new-to-me but plausible reason for copper in the vapor path. Given the oil I sometimes see on used copper plates and mesh (esp. with grains) I can't argue...

How much do you use?

TwoSheds
I pack the riser with copper mesh.

Pump hot Backset through it top down then hot water to clean it.

I do this for both stripping and spirit runs.
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Re: copper mesh in regular pot still question

Post by Twisted Brick »

Chauncey wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 2:37 pm
TwoSheds wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 9:43 am
kiwi Bruce wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 8:48 am The reason for using copper in a pot still set-up is because copper is the catalyst in the conversion of organic acids, (along with alcohol and heat), into esters in the wash in the beer run for whiskeys, runs and other flavored liquors. I put cut 1/2 inch pieces of copper pipe into the bottom of my SS beer still.
Interesting! This isn't something that comes up much in discussion here, but a cursory web search for 'copper ester development' surfaced plenty of research to support that there's something there. I'll need to start chucking some copper in the kettle!

It's also supported by one of the conclusions in the article I linked to above which states:
In these laboratory scale distillations, copper was found to reduce the level of this compound best when placed in the wash still condenser or spirit still pot.
Thanks Kiwi Bruce.

TwoSheds
Yea it's odd that such a thing is so understated. Interesting
Yes, there are some good HD discussions of ester development as well as whiskey industry articles discussing how and where esters are formed in distilling. While copper catalyses esters in the boiler, the majority of esters are formed during fermentation and also during long aging periods in oak barrels. From my limited reading, esters are also created in elevated temperatures from acids in the presence of ethanol even in stainless steel stills. Oxygen also plays a critical role in ester development during fermentation, or, said differently, in anaerobic (closed with an airlock) fermentations ester development is inhibited, instead focusing on alcohol production.

There are so many esters (hundreds) that are formed during the distillation process that the trick is to develop a fermentation, distilling and aging regime that works for you. Semi-open ferments, ale yeasts fermented in warmer temps, copper in the vapor path and long aging schedules will all help.

Table of esters and their smells

Esters – Stars of the Whiskey World

Aerobic Fermentation and Esters

Yeast in the wash boiler
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Re: copper mesh in regular pot still question

Post by BoomTown »

[
TwoSheds
[/quote]

I pack the riser with copper mesh.

Pump hot Backset through it top down then hot water to clean it.

I do this for both stripping and spirit runs.
[/quote]

Hey Twosheds, tell us about that pump you use for those hot Backsets, please. And.how is it rigged, thinking about safety issue…hot backseat can be dangerous…

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Re: copper mesh in regular pot still question

Post by Dancing4dan »

On the reflux column a chugged pump is used to pump hot Backset after a still run. It is connected to the still drain and the discharge is is placed in the to of the column after removing the still head.

On my pot still no pump needed. Just pull the head and riser off the still and discharge the pot drain through it with the aid of just a drain hose.

Either way the stills have to be drained. I just use the Backset to clean the copper mesh.

On the reflux still I also have added the heads back down the column from the top. Just make sure the reflux condenser is on.
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Re: copper mesh in regular pot still question

Post by Dancing4dan »

On the reflux column a chugged pump is used to pump hot Backset after a still run. It is connected to the still drain and the discharge is is placed in the top of the column after removing the still head.

On my pot still no pump needed. Just pull the head and riser off the still and discharge the pot drain through it with the aid of a drain hose.

Either way the stills have to be drained. I just use the hot Backset to clean the copper mesh.

Hoses are 3/16 inch thick silicone with cam lock connectors.
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Re: copper mesh in regular pot still question

Post by TwoSheds »

Yeah, that was Dan's comment on using the pump, thanks for answering Dan.

I use a Riptide pump with hot backset too and yes, it can be dangerous. Also worth mentioning some household drain fixtures and waste pumps aren't designed for 200+ degree water! More often I use it to pump into buckets which I then dump.

My method for cleaning copper/mesh if I'm doing it after a run is to just drop it into the hot backset for a soak for a few minutes. Pull it out laster, give it a rinse with clean water and let it air dry.
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Re: copper mesh in regular pot still question

Post by Yummyrum »

GG , I did an experiment a while back .
I also had a 2” riser 36” tall and tried it with packing and no packing and then insulated and uninsulated in both cases .

viewtopic.php?f=16&t=71451#p7532528
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