Bubble cap with integrated downcomer from China

Vapor, Liquid or Cooling Management. Flutes, plates, etc.

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needmorstuff
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Bubble cap with integrated downcomer from China

Post by needmorstuff »

Hi,

It's a long story but I have been offered these from a china supplier to correct a mistake they made with my original order - to my eye they look like stilldragon copies, but the slotted section on the lower part seems a good deal longer than the still dragon ones. Does anyone more clued up on these things know if that will have a material impact on their performance?

It's either 3 of these on a 4" plate or the traditional arrangement of 5 caps and 1 downcomer i can go with.
procap.jpg
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Re: Bubble cap with integrated downcomer from China

Post by needmorstuff »

and here's the SD one
still dragon pro cap36.jpg
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Re: Bubble cap with integrated downcomer from China

Post by LWTCS »

In my opinion, the operating range will be smaller.
I cant say for certain without doing a side by side test what the difference would be. But I am familiar enough with the intended purpose of the concept to see that the knock off is rife with flaw. Certainly no improvement upon the original concept.

In my opinion the knock offs will have to be run much slower and that will negate the benefit of the integrated downcomers.

In my opinion the knock offs will be prone to vapor bypass because the liquid discharge on the downcomer needs to sit in a liquid cup with a deeper reservoir.

Also, without a way to direct the liquid flow, the likelihood of returning reflux dropping right down a downcomer on the plate below is increased. This oversight represents a loss of efficiency and added smearing.

Frankly they really have no idea what they are doing beyond being good at fabricating shiny metal bits.

Who are they? DYE?
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Re: Bubble cap with integrated downcomer from China

Post by Yummyrum »

Pleased you answered that first Larry .

That was my first thought . The slot is so far down that it will not allow enough liquid in the trap to prevent vapour bypass blowing up the down comers .

I don’t get these China clone machines . They get everything so exact but then , when it comes to critical things , they miss the point by a mile .
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Re: Bubble cap with integrated downcomer from China

Post by needmorstuff »

Thanks for the feedback, I did wonder what the effect might be of the longer slot.

To note though, the metal flow directors despite not being on the photos would be included.

So my other option is to use the normal China bubble caps that I already have.

My main reason for wanting the integrated downcomers is to benefit from a wider operating range, so these are seemingly not fit for purpose
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Re: Bubble cap with integrated downcomer from China

Post by LWTCS »

Well if they are going to send them to you anyway, I'd give em a shot and see how much better they will perform compared to the more conventional bubble cap plate arrangement.
Heck it could provide some measure of improvement?

To be clear, we have found that the integrated downcomer design does not necessarily make a better spirit than the more conventional bubble cap plate arrangement. That has much more to do with the operator being intimately familiar with his system by getting in the repetitions and working on improving one's own sensory awareness.
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Re: Bubble cap with integrated downcomer from China

Post by needmorstuff »

They aren't going to send for free. They will swap out 16 sets of the conventional for 16 sets of these knockoffs for a cost of £400 GBP. It is purely for making neutral. **yes i understand there are easier ways of making neutral and that 20 plates are better than 16**
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Re: Bubble cap with integrated downcomer from China

Post by needmorstuff »

apparently these are the most recent "SD version" and I'm not to forget that this version has a deeper cup on the drip director.

all things aside, do we think these will perform better than the regular bubble caps with dedicated downcomers.

they do have the flow director

my main objective is having an easier run and the wider operating range and lack of flooding is what draws me to the "pro cap"
Last edited by needmorstuff on Sun Jul 10, 2022 2:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
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RC Al
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Re: Bubble cap with integrated downcomer from China

Post by RC Al »

Imho as your making neutral, the larger number of caps with more (smaller?) slots would be better.

400 quid for the upgrade, tell em they're dreaming.

Your not looking at a 16 plate Glasser are you? If so skip it, not enough plate height (especially if you decide on pro caps, they are pretty bulky top and bottom) and full of silicone seals that wont last commercially.
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Re: Bubble cap with integrated downcomer from China

Post by needmorstuff »

If by Glasser you mean a glass column then no, I have 16 short TEEs in steel, which are about 110mm tall.

I may actually have the height for 20... But won't know until I move locations.

Are you saying the procaps themselves have silicon seals, or just the glass columns?
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Re: Bubble cap with integrated downcomer from China

Post by RC Al »

Just the column seals

110mm would count the pro caps out for me, they will work fine down low-medium, but imho they need more height to get beneficial use at the top end of their capabilities.

Height restriction blows lols
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Re: Bubble cap with integrated downcomer from China

Post by captainshooch »

RC Al wrote: Sun Jul 10, 2022 1:24 am Imho as your making neutral, the larger number of caps with more (smaller?) slots would be better.

400 quid for the upgrade, tell em they're dreaming.

Your not looking at a 16 plate Glasser are you? If so skip it, not enough plate height (especially if you decide on pro caps, they are pretty bulky top and bottom) and full of silicone seals that wont last commercially.

Can you please explain why you feel a 16 plate Glasser is in your opinion not a good option?
I happen to own one, for the past 8 years and I have not experienced any of the issues you refer to.
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Re: Bubble cap with integrated downcomer from China

Post by RC Al »

Nothing if its built right, the new china ones have a 1/2" thick silicone seal between each glass and the plate height @4" is what i consider barely adequate and much less than ideal.

Most ship with 4mm glass when the seal is designed for 6mm, which leaves a 1mm gap between the glass n seal that has product trapped in there, in my experience i think this contributes to the plate seal issues ive experienced as the seal ages, theres more slop.

Generally they ship with 4 uprights not 6 or 8, the 4 is not enough to support adding a decent sized packed section.

My 3 plater has been in learning experience for sure, i got it used and the PO had added 4 extra rods and the pro caps, I love your rigs and set up but I am over leaking plates with mine.
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Re: Bubble cap with integrated downcomer from China

Post by LWTCS »

Do you have glass chimneys with the round polished ends?
Or are the chimneys flat on the ends?

Are you using nuts on both sides of the truss rods to lock the rods down for structural integrity?

Captain's Hooch has already proved that 4" spacings is an adequate spacing for up to 16 plates.
At that height however you do need to have precision control of cooling media flow as well as precision power management control.
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Re: Bubble cap with integrated downcomer from China

Post by captainshooch »

I have been able to stack 8 glass sections full of ceramic rings with no issues at all.
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Re: Bubble cap with integrated downcomer from China

Post by LWTCS »

Here is the good captain's outfit.
Screenshot_20220430-040511_Gallery(1).jpg
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Re: Bubble cap with integrated downcomer from China

Post by needmorstuff »

looking fabulous.

so, back to my point ;-)

on my 16 x short tees (112mm tall)

will these china procaps have a wider operating range and be easier to run than the standard bubble caps on a 4" plate? the bottom of it does look dished so the thinner section would sit a little lower.

Would the longer slits allow more vapour to pass upwards?

I'm still debating to pay the extra or not, even if they help a little and resist flooding better than the standard ones I'd be happy. Having never run a flute I'm looking for an easy ride.
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Re: Bubble cap with integrated downcomer from China

Post by captainshooch »

112 mm tees works out to 4.4" same as I have. Plenty of room and yes the pro-caps do have a very wide operating range but I would rather go with a trusted supplier like LWTS. Can not speak or recommend on the knockoffs because I have no hands on experience with them. A lot of documented research and trials went into designing these bubble caps from SD and others have done the boots and eyes and on hand trials to support the claims. My suggestion, play it safe and go with a product that has been tried and tested, or save money and take a chance. Your dollars, spend them as you see fit.
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