SPP Packing

[NineInchNails]

Thanks for the advice DAD and 9"nails,
I got that book and I'm trying to find Kerenyi's article (original source quoted there)... let's see if I'm lucky.
I absolutely trust you DAD... but it's too late because I've already bought small SPP... I will tell you how it works in a 100mm column.. but I'm sure it will be slower.
Maybe in the future I will try to build bigger SPP with 1/10th ratio
I'm also very curious to know why the standard (the most used) 10mm packing, the big one, it's just an spiral and it's not prismatic...
Wouldn't be more effective with a prismatic form?

Maybe that's just what was tested. Maybe they just didn't try prismatic SPP in larger size.

[sergiolis]

Hi guys,
I got the article but now I need a chemical engineer to translate it to worldly words...
Maybe for some of you it is useful
Regards

Kerényi article, 1971.pdf

(457.7 KiB) Downloaded 225 times

[rubelstrudel]

What I got out of that paper was that except for the significantly worse performing glass raschig rings, everything else they tested worked pretty much the same. But maybe I am mis-reading.

[sergiolis]

Hi colleagues!
I'm having some problems running a 4" Boka with SPP.
Hopefully some of you have tried a 4" column filled with SPP.
I did 2 runs and I was unable to see the liquid semi-flooded state that is optimal for SPP performance.
As I have a sight-glass I can see what is happening...
Second run I put the sight glass on the middle of the column to see if bubbles could get there and during Heads I was increasing power until 9kw (my limit) and no boiling bubbles at all.
Plenty of reflux, lots of cooling water to the condenser but I couldn't see the blessed bubbles....
If someone is runing 4" I would apreciate your help very much

[Fart Vader]

That's a very good question sergiolis. I've been meaning to ask it myself. I have a 3 inch and like you, moved the sight glass down to see a change. No flooding. I only have 5kw thought. Produces like crazy, but no magical flooding or semi flooding.

[sergiolis]

Ohhh Fart Vader, In my case running a 3" column at 2800W I was near flooding, and over 3200w bubbles exceeded the sight glass contaminating the slanted plates. The column was filled with 110cm of small SPP.

[Fart Vader]

That's interesting sergiolis, my spp (home made) is larger, but optimum size for a 3 inch column as recommended by all threads I read.

It won't flood, but it does work very well.

[sergiolis]

Well if it works that's what is important! Not 100% sure but looks like the best performance of SPP is in a liquid semi-flooded state.

[DAD300]

I think I already asked, but what abv are you getting without flood?

[Fart Vader]

I think I already asked, but what abv are you getting without flood?

A solid 93% at 6l per hour. Pretty happy with that.

[Fart Vader]

Hmm I just looked a little closer at the picture that sergiolis posted and noticed the insulation.
I don't have any on my column, could that be the cause of non flooding? I really can't see what the difference would be while running indoors. Maybe I'll insulate my next neutral run and try.

[Sunshineer]

A lot of good information here going back and rereading probably more than once. Just ordered two 3 inch glass columns 36 inch long I'm going to pack both with spp so I can turm my boiler up to the full 3600 watts and watch all the action.

[sergiolis]

Hmm I just looked a little closer at the picture that sergiolis posted and noticed the insulation.
I don't have any on my column, could that be the cause of non flooding? I really can't see what the difference would be while running indoors. Maybe I'll insulate my next neutral run and try.

Hi Fart, Your column is made of SS or copper? If it's copper It would be interesting to insulate it because loss of energy is significant compared to SS.

A lot of good information here going back and rereading probably more than once. Just ordered two 3 inch glass columns 36 inch long I'm going to pack both with spp so I can turm my boiler up to the full 3600 watts and watch all the action.

A glass column, that's great... I would like to see how you make flanges or connections. If you could post some pictures...
Today I will try half column packed, about 24"... Let's see how it works and what abv I get.

[sergiolis]

Here my report,
Not as good as I thought,
Boiler charged with 120L at 38%
4" Boka filled with 24" of SPP ( 4,4 x 5,5 x 0,24 mm), 8000W on hearts 100ml/min, temp 78,9ºC but not very stable. No semi-flooded state. Corrected abv at 94%. After a while the temp increased a tenth of a degree.
So I decided to use the whole column instead of decrease take-off.
Now 48" of SPP, sight glass on the middle of the column, Same take off at 100ml/min, but much more stable providing 95% abv. 8000w. No semi-flooded state. Interestingly the stable temp. here was 78.6ºC.
But the thing is that with a 3" column, same height and same SPP I could collect at 80ml/min in a stable way.
So there is just a small difference and supposedly I should collect at double speed.
I'm thinking about 2 options to improve take-off rate.
a) Maybe if I get a 3.5" (89mm) column I could get the semi-flooded state improving performance of SPP.
b) I could make big helical coils like these ones. Looks much easier than the prismatic ones.
Dad following your words: My 4" dia column is 36" tall. with 30" of 8mm x 12mm SPP. It has a SS Scrubbie bottom and top.
I start with a 30%abv boiler charge. It floods the top at about 7,000watts. Runs great at about 5,500watts. Starts off at four gallons an hour of azeo and drops to three to poop before tails. When making vodka, when I can['t maintain azeo, I'm done.
Looks like I'm not squeezing yet my 4" Boka.
By the way DAD, your big SPP is like this one in the picture?

I hope you can give me some advices.
Thanks for reading guys! Cheers!

[Sunshineer]

Hmm I just looked a little closer at the picture that sergiolis posted and noticed the insulation.
I don't have any on my column, could that be the cause of non flooding? I really can't see what the difference would be while running indoors. Maybe I'll insulate my next neutral run and try.

Hi Fart, Your column is made of SS or copper? If it's copper It would be interesting to insulate it because loss of energy is significant compared to SS.

A lot of good information here going back and rereading probably more than once. Just ordered two 3 inch glass columns 36 inch long I'm going to pack both with spp so I can turm my boiler up to the full 3600 watts and watch all the action.

A glass column, that's great... I would like to see how you make flanges or connections. If you could post some pictures...
Today I will try half column packed, about 24"... Let's see how it works and what abv I get.

3" Sieve Plates Crystal Reflux Distillation Column Moonshine Still
12 Plates, 2" + 2" I'm going to remove the plates and fill with spp

[NineInchNails]

sergiolis, I cannot tell from the pic, but is your spiral packing etched? You should be able to etch your packing with ferric chloride. That should allow your packing to hold more ethanol due to surface tension & the increased surface area. Etching should make a noticeable increase in performance, but I don't know how much more.

With SPP, the prismatic gaps is what allow it to hold more ethanol and I imagine that's why it is the most effective packing. I would be interested to know how well your spirals would perform if they were optimized by etching them (if they are not already etched).

[sergiolis]

Hi NineInchNails!
I have an Spiral Prismatic Packing from Poland, but i don't know if it is already etched. With this one (4,4 x 5,5 x 0,24 mm) I made the test in a 4" column... but not very happy with results.

Now I'm evaluating to build myself the Helical one and to etch it it's a good option.

[NineInchNails]

Hi NineInchNails!
I have an Spiral Prismatic Packing from Poland, but i don't know if it is already etched. With this one (4,4 x 5,5 x 0,24 mm) I made the test in a 4" column... but not very happy with results.

s1.jpg

Now I'm evaluating to build myself the Helical one and to etch it it's a good option.

I do not believe that looks etched. If it were, it should appear dull rather than a shiny finish.

I'd be curious if etching your simple spirals would make it work better. If so, how much better.

[sergiolis]

Hi NIN,
I can't find the reason but the SPP Masters here are not etching... I'll try to fnd more info about it, But I think SPP suffers a natural process of etching just with time. Sorry, I couldn't say it better....

[Odin]

Your SPP is too small. And the picture you posted ... think that is my packing actually?

Odin.

[Odin]

Also, you need more power. 10 kW at least.

Odin.

[Odin]

Etching creates reflux hold up. Means you are more prone to flood your column, because liquids don't drain as easy as they should. Especially with all you folks trying to use 2 inch column optimized SPP for bigger systems, where the SPP is too small relative to column diameter, liquid hold-up is already a problem.

Odin.

[sergiolis]

Good morning Odin! Nice to hear from you!!!
I got the picture from still4you, I think he is Piotr, the guy from Poland.
Yes, It's weird, actually I was looking for flooding to get the semi-flooded state, but as I said 48" of SPP, sight glass on the middle of the column and 8kw and I couldn't see boiling bubbles. The production was slow at 100ml/min... if I pushed more was losing equilibrium and increasing the temp a tenth of degree. So I stayed at 100ml/min.
As you say it's likely a power issue. However my limit is 9kW.
I'm a bit confused though. I would like to make a bigger SPP. But if what we are looking for is a semi-flooded state, theoretically (based on the info I could get here) using a bigger SPP I will have less tendency to flooding. At least theoretically it's a bit contradictory.
Having a power limit of 9Kw on a 4" column do you think a bigger helical SPP will perform better?
If so I will give a try.... well let's see if I'm able to make it, but looks a bit easier than the prismatic one.
Odin, what do you recommend me?
Thanks in advance for all the info you posted here in this wonderful packing.
Cheers!!!

[Odin]

I would try 9 kW instead of 8 kW first with the smaller SPP. Pjotr may have the bigger SPP indeed. It will work fine in a 4 inch diameter column, but you do need more power, because there is relatively more open space and faster reflux draining.

Odin.

[sergiolis]

Ohh Odin,
I can't get more power than 9Kw, this upgrade implies many changes on my electrical installation..
So probably my best option would be to try a 3.5" column (89mm)
Well, Sincerely i'm stuck, I don't know what to do but what I know is that I have a huge amount of feints for recycling... No idea, Too complicated

[Manc]

Hi everyone

Has anyone tried reducing the size of the spp as the coloum gains height.
I have just done it by necessity.

I have a 3 inch coloum and recently bought some spp same size as sergolis but also found it not so great I have 3 litres and due to miscalculation only has about 80cm height so I have used a stainless steel roll of wire to separate from some 3mm spp and have about 40cm of that.

I did a run yesterday of 50 litres of 40% abv striped neutral and in the hearts I was taking off at 4 litres an hour off a 3 kw heater ( not in full power). And getting 94%abv temperature adjusted

Sorry if this has already been covered but thought it was worth sharing.

I'm doing an all feints run today of 45litres of 40%abv hopefully with same reults.

Lee

[sergiolis]

Hi Manc,
Don't understand exactly what is your issue,
But I would buy 1 liter more of SPP, you will have better separation, more height column and you will be able to increase power obtaining better performance and booze.

[Manc]

Hi sergiolis

Sorry for getting your name wrong and if I came across wrong it wasn't meant to so hard to get context to text if you see what I mean.

I was just wondering if anyone had tried using different sizes as the alcohol climbs the coloum and gets purer or am I missing the point completely.

I'm happy with what I got yesterday and I've never ran that fast before.

Thanks
Lee

[sergiolis]

Yes Manc, you are misunderstanding some points,
You need the entire column filled with a packing as even as possible.

[Manc]

Thanks for your reply sergolis. I don't want to sound disrespectful but why does it all have to be the same?

I have re-read some of this thread I've read it all in the past from what I can understand there are different refluxing zones within a coloum full of SSP all I'm doing is increasing the density of the packing at the top of the tower and business end I know that is over simplifying.

I'm not saying that I'm right and maybe missing something obvious but it's working for me and separation doesn't seem to be suffering in fact maybe better. I'm going to keep using this method for now and will try different ratios between the packing.

Again no disrespect intended thanks

Lee