Making cuts with T500 Reflux

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carees82
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Making cuts with T500 Reflux

Post by carees82 »

I'm looking to upgrade to a T500 copper reflux from an airstill. I've been doing quite a bit of research first and I've read from numerous sources that in order to achieve a good quality neutral spirit, then cuts need to be made at precise temperatures, such as head cuts made between 80oc and 90oc and hearts between 91oc and 95oc.
According to the T500 manual and numerous forum posts, to achieve the highest quality from the T500, it should be run at a constant temperature of 55oc and no higher than 65oc.
In this case, how would you know at which points to cut the foreshots, heads, hearts and tails, if the recommended temperatures for these cuts are well above the recommended temperature to run the T500?
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acfixer69
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Re: Making cuts with T500 Reflux

Post by acfixer69 »

I have never even seen the T500 but have read enought about them. First the instructions that came with it are wrong. Pot stills are not run by temperature you feed the power to it to get a pencil lead stream. Most do the strip rum with no cuts just a foreshot toss. Do that till you have collected enough to do a spirit run watered to 30 ABV. Then refer to Kiwi's guide to pot still cuts. Saltbush bill has given sound advise on this still so if you look around you will find it. He'll be waking about now so maybe he'll help you better. Good luck

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Re: Making cuts with T500 Reflux

Post by carees82 »

Thanks I'll check that out
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Saltbush Bill
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Re: Making cuts with T500 Reflux

Post by Saltbush Bill »

acfixer69 wrote: Pot stills are not run by temperature you feed the power to it to get a pencil lead stream.
T500 is a reflux still AC :ewink:
carees82 wrote: I've been doing quite a bit of research first and I've read from numerous sources that in order to achieve a good quality neutral spirit, then cuts need to be made at precise temperatures, such as head cuts made between 80oc and 90oc and hearts between 91oc and 95oc.
You can not make good cuts by relying on temperature to do it. Your god given senses of taste and smell are the best tool for the job. This will take some practice if you haven't done it before and you probably wont get it right the first time around. I suggest reading Kiwis guide to cuts for further information on that subject.
carees82 wrote:According to the T500 manual and numerous forum posts, to achieve the highest quality from the T500, it should be run at a constant temperature of 55oc and no higher than 65oc.
Your better of running you T500 by watching the flow of spirit leaving the still rather than the temp.
Use the temp as a rough guide only.
I know this because I ran one many many times when I first started distilling.
A T500 is a coolant management or what we call a “CM" still.
The more water you allow through the reflux condencer the more the still refluxs the spirit.
This in turn slowes the output rate, in turn you get a higher abv, and a purer spirit with less taste.
Note that if you turn the water flow up really high , no spirit leaves the still, that is because its refluxing everything.
Turning the water flow down will give you less reflux, spirit will leave the still at a faster rate , but it will be less pure in taste and of a lower ABV.
Using that knowledge you can run your still without looking at the temp gauges at all.
If you want quality you can disregard the temps and just keep the output real slow.
You need to aim for a very thin constant stream leaving the still.
Using small jars and filling them with about 250ml of spirit will teach you more a lot quicker than using bigger jars if you are new to making cuts with this size still.
The manual that comes with this still says you only need to take a small a small foreshots cut , then keep the rest of the run, It also says that this still will not produce tails.
Do not believe the owners manual or anyone who tries to tell you that you don’t need to make cuts when you use this still, nor that it won’t produce tails. That is complete nonsense.
There is not a still on earth that doesn’t require you to make cuts and they will all produce tails at some stage of the run, though CMs have a reputation for being better at holding tails back than many other stills.
The other thing that you can do to dramatically improve your product is to build a pot still head for the boiler and then strip your wash before refluxing it.
For what they are the T500 does a reasonable job, they are however very expensive for what they can do.
If you have the skills and time you can build your self a much better reflux still for a lot less cost.
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Re: Making cuts with T500 Reflux

Post by acfixer69 »

Thanks Salt for fixin that guess there is two Hats for that thing. I did know you were the guy to go too. Thanks for gettin us straight.

AC
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Re: Making cuts with T500 Reflux

Post by Saltbush Bill »

acfixer69 wrote:guess there is two Hats for that thing.
True , the same company make a pot still head that fits the same boiler.
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Re: Making cuts with T500 Reflux

Post by needmorstuff »

I have both heads and the pot still head saves a bunch of time for stripping runs. Plus its not the time it saves but also effort.. for the stripping run you just set it and let it do its thing.

For cuts, the best advice I got was to collect in small jars.. I collect in 220ml. And when you come to test the cuts thi sis what I do.

lay all my jars out in order. Take a middle jar as a reference.

Take 1 teaspoon of product from middle jar and put in a shot glass
using a diferent teaspoon take a spoon from the jar to be judged and put in a shot gloss.

now using the same spoons take 1 teaspoon of hot water from the tap and put in the shot glass - the hot water really helps release the odour of the product.. this is extremely helpful for tales and makes it very easy to differentiate..

but as others say - it really just comes down to practice and getting used to the smell - taste - mouthfeel of the different fractions.
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Re: Making cuts with T500 Reflux

Post by GinBob »

I've been running a T500 for quite a few years now and the fastest and overall easiest way to get a good starting point seems to be doing the following:
Start it up and collect the first 50 - 100ml of distillate, aiming for a temperature on the cooling water outlet of around 55°C, top column temperature will hover around 68 - 75°C and thats because the first lot is predominantly methanol. Toss it.
Now collect the next 100ml or so with the same conditions as above, the top column temperature should now be up to around 79°C, keep this to one side. If it stinks to high heavens of methanol, you can just toss it, otherwise it can be reused later.
Now let the cooling water temp come up to around 65°C on the outlet and run it as fast as possible.
I usually collect everything until the temperature in the top column starts to rise past 80°C

Now what I've said will have most of the older hands cringing in horror, no cuts?! bit of heads n tails in there? running so fast? Awful.
It's cool, we're going to dilute the distillate down to around 40 -60% Ethanol by volume. I usually run 3 batches then combine them all to do a second distillation run.

This time, we're going to run the still with a cooling water temperature of 55°C on the outlet all the time. again collect the first 100 - 200mls and separate from the rest. At this point, you can do cuts if you want. Personally, I notice only very slight differences so I don't tend to bother. Once you have a majority of ethanol out the boiler, say 2/3s of what you put in, start collecting the remainder in separate containers, again I run this until I see the top column temp rising to 80°C+.
Now this second lot, isn't going to be as good as the first body you got, and with experience you'll be able to push closer to the limit to determine where you change containers, but keep it. it can always be distilled again at a later date if it's carrying too much baggage.

I then dilute to 40 - 50% and put the main body through a filter, I've tried activated carbon, I've had the easy filters, allsorts, the brita filter cartridge seems to do the best job, for the time, and the price. [edited to be more specific]

This gives me a nice neutral spirit which I can drink, or use to make Gin with.

What I've said isn't the "best" way to do it, but it isn't bad, but it will give you a solid useable foundation with which to do whatever you want with.

The jar method will teach you a lot about what the columns doing and the changes in flavours etc, I personally found that the first distillate run never produced anything palatable for me, so it always got redistilled and filtered... and as I say, I can't tell a difference between either method once I've done all that, perhaps with better buds someone else can? but not me :)

To further what SBB was saying about CM stills being better at holding back the tails, it's basically all down to the reflux and the reflux ratio. This type of still can achieve a very high reflux ratio which allows you to build a strong distillate in the upper section of the column, which slowly makes its way out, it makes up for the fact the columns quite short.

I would be curious though SBB on why you think running it in pot still mode first for the initial stilling run before putting it through a column is better? I'd have thought two column runs would be better, or a column run then a pot still run, because you've actually got a much higher concentration of ethanol and a lot less impurities with either of these methods? I haven't tried it though! Hence my question.
Cheers,
GB
Last edited by GinBob on Mon Mar 26, 2018 1:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Making cuts with T500 Reflux

Post by Manc »

Hi hope you don't mind me piping in here I ran an airstill for years before I bought a t500 and found this site. thanks for your insight ginbob although I'm new at this I can see how your method makes sense the more I experiment I've tried a constant stream and dripping and can see how running at a constant stream and then rerunning slower could make a better product. Interesting idea about a Brita filter must try that. I've found that using a cork stopper in my glass carboys tends to give me a good netural after the angel share [GRINNING FACE WITH SMILING EYES] .

Anyway the best accessory I've added to my still is a voltage regulator when it starts to reflux I turn down the voltage and it seems to give better cuts I read somewhere that without turning down the power it's like trying to stop a runway train downhill. It made sense to me and IMOI it does make it easier and also controlling the coolant temperature is a lot easier.

Hope this is of use
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Re: Making cuts with T500 Reflux

Post by zapata »

Hey ginbob, not to undermine your experience and advice, but do want to comment on what you are calling methanol. Methanol is not particularly concentrated in the fores or heads, due to the way different compounds interact it comes across throughout the run. I'd guess what you are describing as "stinks to high heavens of methanol " is actually ethyl acetate, or maybe acetaldehyde. Methanol smells almost identical to ethanol, and is probably near impossible to detect by smell in a mix of the two.

I know lots of older texts and comments equate fores and heads with methanol. And I don't think it should change what you are doing that is working. Anything that stinks to high heaven or is toxic should be excluded as much as possible, regardless of what its called.
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Re: Making cuts with T500 Reflux

Post by acfixer69 »

GinBob wrote:I've been running a T500 for quite a few years now and the fastest and overall easiest way to get a good starting point seems to be doing the following:
Start it up and collect the first 50 - 100ml of distillate, aiming for a temperature on the cooling water outlet of around 55°C, top column temperature will hover around 68 - 75°C and thats because the first lot is predominantly methanol. Toss it.
Now collect the next 100ml or so with the same conditions as above, the top column temperature should now be up to around 79°C, keep this to one side. If it stinks to high heavens of methanol, you can just toss it, otherwise it can be reused later.
Now let the cooling water temp come up to around 65°C on the outlet and run it as fast as possible.
I usually collect everything until the temperature in the top column starts to rise past 80°C

Now what I've said will have most of the older hands cringing in horror, no cuts?! bit of heads n tails in there? running so fast? Awful.
It's cool, we're going to dilute the distillate down to around 40 -60% Ethanol by volume. I usually run 3 batches then combine them all to do a second distillation run.

This time, we're going to run the still with a cooling water temperature of 55°C on the outlet all the time. again collect the first 100 - 200mls and separate from the rest. At this point, you can do cuts if you want. Personally, I notice only very slight differences so I don't tend to bother. Once you have a majority of ethanol out the boiler, say 2/3s of what you put in, start collecting the remainder in separate containers, again I run this until I see the top column temp rising to 80°C+.
Now this second lot, isn't going to be as good as the first body you got, and with experience you'll be able to push closer to the limit to determine where you change containers, but keep it. it can always be distilled again at a later date if it's carrying too much baggage.

I then dilute to 40 - 50% and put the main body through a brita filter, I've tried activated carbon, I've had the easy filters, allsorts, the brita filter seems to do the best job, for the time, and the price.

This gives me a nice neutral spirit which I can drink, or use to make Gin with.

What I've said isn't the "best" way to do it, but it isn't bad, but it will give you a solid useable foundation with which to do whatever you want with.

The jar method will teach you a lot about what the columns doing and the changes in flavours etc, I personally found that the first distillate run never produced anything palatable for me, so it always got redistilled and filtered... and as I say, I can't tell a difference between either method once I've done all that, perhaps with better buds someone else can? but not me :)

To further what SBB was saying about CM stills being better at holding back the tails, it's basically all down to the reflux and the reflux ratio. This type of still can achieve a very high reflux ratio which allows you to build a strong distillate in the upper section of the column, which slowly makes its way out, it makes up for the fact the columns quite short.

I would be curious though SBB on why you think running it in pot still mode first for the initial stilling run before putting it through a column is better? I'd have thought two column runs would be better, or a column run then a pot still run, because you've actually got a much higher concentration of ethanol and a lot less impurities with either of these methods? I haven't tried it though! Hence my question.
Cheers,
GB
You know that this is a violation of rule #8 and posted it anyway even at that proof is a leach and can be misunderstood.
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Re: Making cuts with T500 Reflux

Post by Saltbush Bill »

GinBob wrote:I would be curious though SBB on why you think running it in pot still mode first for the initial stilling run before putting it through a column is better?
I fail to see where I said that it was a better way, I do see that I mentioned stripping with a pot head as an option.
I stick by that, it is an option and one used by myself and many others successfully.
GinBob wrote:now I work for a specialist distillations company looking after maybe 10 - 15 distillation plants.
GinBob wrote: it stinks to high heavens of methanol,
GinBob wrote:and thats because the first lot is predominantly methanol.
Your understanding of Methanol , what it smells like and how it comes off in a distillation is unusual to say the least.
I have smelt and tasted laboratory grade methanol because I had the chance to, and I'm the curious type.
I can tell you it smells and tastes nothing like fores or heads, in fact it has very little smell or taste.
You would have a snowflakes chance in hell of smelling or tasting methanol in the mix of alcohols/ solvents that leave a still in the early stages of distillation.
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Re: Making cuts with T500 Reflux

Post by Yummyrum »

Saltbush Bill wrote: I can tell you it smells and tastes nothing like fores or heads, in fact it has very little smell or taste.
You would have a snowflakes chance in hell of smelling or tasting methanol in the mix of alcohols/ solvents that leave a still in the early stages of distillation.
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I can concur with Salt Bush ...we both smelt and tasted the methanol .....yes , finger lick won't make you go blind ..... I also concur with Zapata that what you think you are smelling is Ethyl acetate , me and Salt Bush also got to have a hands on crack at a Lab grade sample of that too as well as Acetone , Butanols and Propenols .

I also agree with you that a double reflux run has got to be better than a quick strip ......but time wise , a quick strip will come pretty close to it IMO.......but if you have the time for a double reflux run then go for it :thumbup:
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Re: Making cuts with T500 Reflux

Post by GinBob »

Manc wrote: Anyway the best accessory I've added to my still is a voltage regulator when it starts to reflux I turn down the voltage and it seems to give better cuts I read somewhere that without turning down the power it's like trying to stop a runway train downhill. It made sense to me and IMOI it does make it easier and also controlling the coolant temperature is a lot easier.

Hope this is of use
Manc
Hope it was useful for you as well mate, I've not got round to trying a voltage controller but I'll add that to my list. I always think of the element input and the condenser as 2 sides of the same coin and its just a question of what you want to play with, but it certainly is worth a go! Always more to learn, thanks for the tip.
zapata wrote:Hey ginbob, not to undermine your experience and advice, but do want to comment on what you are calling methanol. Methanol is not particularly concentrated in the fores or heads, due to the way different compounds interact it comes across throughout the run. I'd guess what you are describing as "stinks to high heavens of methanol " is actually ethyl acetate, or maybe acetaldehyde. Methanol smells almost identical to ethanol, and is probably near impossible to detect by smell in a mix of the two.

I know lots of older texts and comments equate fores and heads with methanol. And I don't think it should change what you are doing that is working. Anything that stinks to high heaven or is toxic should be excluded as much as possible, regardless of what its called.
Not at all mate, I equate it to methanol simply because the evidence tallies up, I have absolutely no doubt that there are bunch of other compounds in there that have made their way through, is that what I'm smelling? If so, great stuff :). I simply assumed its methanol because the top column temp reads about 69°C which is the methanol boiling point, once you get that out the way the spirit comes out at 79°C and much cleaner smelling. Good to know though thank you!

acfixer69, not so aware, the Brita Filter is made of exactly the same thing the stillspirit filters are made of. I simply assumed that because they're a commercially available product it was accepted. If not, I can change that to simply say "I filter it".

SBB, no need to be quite so picky about it. You suggested that option, you didn't suggest running a double column run, from that, I read that that was your preferred method. I'm simply curious as to why you prefer that method, that is all, lets face it, if you didn't think it was in some way better, you wouldn't do it.

Rum, yeah I think it'd take more than the methanol in a typical 5g batch to make you go blind... not that I would advocate trying it of course. Stupid question, what does Ethyl Acetate smell like, I always assumed acetates, your acetones and acetic acid all smell a bit like vinegar and I assumed Ethyl would be no different? I used to work on plants with Acetic acid and it was noticeably different to what comes out the still to start with, though I agree the stills probably a blend. Be curious to know what it is exactly. I'll have a go with the pot method, certainly no harm in trying it and if it gets 80% of the result for 20% of the effort why the hell not! :D
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Re: Making cuts with T500 Reflux

Post by still_stirrin »

GinBob wrote:...Stupid question, what does Ethyl Acetate smell like, I always assumed acetates, your acetones and acetic acid all smell a bit like vinegar and I assumed Ethyl would be no different?
Fingernail polish remover. Most polish remover is either acetone or ethyl acetate, sometimes with isopropyl alcohol too. The acetates smell somewhat “synthetic”, as if it has a plastic smell to it. Acetone is definitely a solvent and will give you a headache quickly if you breathe too much of it. It’ll “ring your bell” too...and that is a warning sign.

It can smell a little like apples, which is the acetylaldehyde (green apples). Budweiser (domestic beer) is notorious for the acetylaldehyde because of the rapid ferments and quick chill (lagering) at low temperatures. It will dissipate if left in the beer at warmer temperatures.

But acetic acid is vinegar...a different smell all together. I associate it with pickle making and canning certain vegetables.

Your nose knows. But you gotta’ train your brain too. Practice, practice, practice.
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Re: Making cuts with T500 Reflux

Post by Saltbush Bill »

On the day that I had access to lab grade Acetone, Ethyl Acetate, Methanol and other compounds I was with Yummy and few of other distillers who where also interested to what these things smelled like.
After a fair bit of sniffing , tasting and discussion we agreed that Acetone smells more like paint thinners than anything, personally I was expecting it to be the one that smelled like nail polish remover, you live and learn each day.
In the end we agreed that it was in fact the Ethel Acetate that smelled like nail polish remover.
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Re: Making cuts with T500 Reflux

Post by TheAlchemist »

Not to bring this thread back from the dead - but the discussion on non ethanol compounds in distillate is pretty interesting. I would typically call "nail polish remover smell" acetone - it is also the most common compound in nail polish remover, however they do make non-acetone nail polish removers out of ethyl acetate. I've got a lot of experience with those and methanol from working in a chemical lab for a few years, in my experience, acetone is pretty distinct - you can pick it up at the hardware store and smell it yourself (or a nail polish remover from a department store). Ethyl acetate is the extremely sweet (and frankly, fruity and enjoyable, to me at least) smelling solvent in your heads. I've only done 2 runs and it's extremely obvious to me where that particular compound stops, it's the strongest smelling compound in the run (it's probably the most easily identifiable common solvent in general, by smell at least). I can identify pure lab grade methanol by smell... but I don't think there's much hope of picking it out as a distinct smell when it's in solution with ethanol and/or ethyl acetate and dissolved in water, not to mention the other compounds discussed above. For what it's worth, of the organic solvents i've worked with extensively here is the order I'd personally rank them, from easiest to discern from ethanol by smell, to most difficult: ethyl acetate, dichloromethane, toluene, hexane, acetone, isopropanol, acetonitrile, methanol

I'd really like to know from SBB and Yummy what their take on what the butanols and propanols smelled/tasted like. I've never played with butyl alcohol on it's own, but my recollection of propanol was difficult to distinguish from isopropanol.
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Re: Making cuts with T500 Reflux

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TheAlchemist wrote: Wed Nov 17, 2021 10:51 am I'd really like to know from SBB and Yummy what their take on what the butanols and propanols smelled/tasted like. I've never played with butyl alcohol on it's own, but my recollection of propanol was difficult to distinguish from isopropanol.
Although I am familiar with Isopropal ( propan-2ol) ( I spent 10years or more sniffing it all day while servicing VCRs) , I can’t off hand remember what propan-1ol smells like .
I have a job interview and a tooth extraction today , but hopefully I can have some wiffs in the Chem storeroom for you . My head can’t hurt any more today LOL .
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Re: Making cuts with T500 Reflux

Post by Saltbush Bill »

How many years ago was it that we did that now Yummy.?
Damned if I remember exactly either.
Sounds like you have a crap day ahead......good luck with it.
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Re: Making cuts with T500 Reflux

Post by Yummyrum »

Saltbush Bill wrote: Wed Nov 17, 2021 12:51 pm How many years ago was it that we did that now Yummy.?
Damned if I remember exactly either.
Sounds like you have a crap day ahead......good luck with it.
Exactly Salty ,was way too long to remember.

I do remember it was A Get together at Scareys though :thumbup: … off topic ,and I also remember we did taste tests of your Various Eggy Oak samples of Rum ….then … I don’t remember much more after that :oops:

Alas was shite day today , Too many boxes to tick and not enough tick’n time … tomorrows another day
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