Where to put the thermometer in a CCVM Still

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artooks
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Re: Where to put the thermometer in a CCVM Still

Post by artooks »

bluefish_dist wrote:There is an optimal vapor speed. Too high and you drive the tails up the column. I try and aim for 20 ft/ /sec or less for scrubbies. SPP can go fast I am told, but have not been able to achieve it with the SPP I had. There are a couple of calculators around that make it easy to determine.
Once you get beyond that, more power will lower abv or require more reflux to hold azeo. So if you are running at azeo and abv drops you can increase reflux or if below 15-20 fps vapor speed, increase power, if above 20, reduce power.
how do you know the vapour speed ?
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Re: Where to put the thermometer in a CCVM Still

Post by ShineRunner »

This thread has a lot of great info! You’ve gotten a lot of great help artooks..

There’s also a vapor speed calculator on the parent site under calcs, then “calcs by rad”..

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Re: Where to put the thermometer in a CCVM Still

Post by kimbodious »

artooks wrote:...I did a trial today I lowered the rc and increased the reflux and also increased the power to 1400 Watt well it was much faster I was getting 1.26 litres in 1 hrs @ 95% ABV...
Sounds like a great run :thumbup: Great tip from BayouShine about placing a reference mark on your RC. Just a word of caution on monitoring a run by ABV. These CCVM's routinely produce very high ABV output. Push them too "fast" and you may still get 92%+ ABV but it can be an undrinkable smeared mess :sick: Biggest risk is bringing up the power too soon and too quickly after taking foreshots.

Learn to test for heads during a run. They way I do that is to dip a clean finger in the output stream and then carefully shake off all the liquid before sucking the finger tip. I am checking for the dry bitter feeling on the front half of my tongue which I rate as heads. I don't worry about the sharp tingling at the tip and sides of the tip of your tongue which is the effect of very high alcohol. I only test like this 2 or three times on a run and only after collecting the first 1.2 litres. I am collecting in 300ml samples while I am detecting the bitter dryness. I usually check at 1.2 and 1.5 litres and mostly can start collecting 1.0 litre samples from there if I am confident I am collecting hearts otherwise I test again at 1.8 litres.
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artooks
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Re: Where to put the thermometer in a CCVM Still

Post by artooks »

Hi,

I checked the vapour speed it looks like I am somewhere between (15.73 - 16.75) is that ok, about the smearing issue, I think one of the most important things is this smearing issue, I do not want to have this problem so just wanted to ask to confirm as I said my vapour speed is somewhere between (15.73 - 16.75) and I am applying 1100 watss in my 3 Gallon boiler, My reflux now is more than increased to compensate the power so in this case do I run the problem into heads smearing into hearts in ccvm ? if so would it be better to do the distillation at a lower vapour speed ?
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bluefish_dist
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Re: Where to put the thermometer in a CCVM Still

Post by bluefish_dist »

Lower vapor speed will make a better product, but take off is slower. It becomes a balancing act of take off rate and product quality. A really tall column can run slightly faster than optimal as there is still enough residence time in the column.
I have run my 4" 8 ft column at 8000w, but it makes a better product at 5500. If running at 8000w and I start getting a temp increase, I can reduce heat and the temp will decrease again. This was very obvious when running my 2". It ran better at 1200-1400 w. If I started to push 1800-2000w it was hard to hold azeo.
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artooks
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Re: Where to put the thermometer in a CCVM Still

Post by artooks »

Hi, Previously I was running my 3 Gallon reflux still at 700-800 watts in my 2" column so it means I was running it @ 11 fps, and I was getting 0.5 lt per hour with a lower reflux, now I tried with 1400 Watt and it was much faster I was getting 1.26 litres in 1 hrs @ 95% ABV with a more reflux, and the vapour speed was 16 fps , so where I am confused is some of you said that running it fast and even getting azeo could sometime bring the heads and hearts smear also at the end it could bring the tails earlier, so as far as I understand I have to start slow, @ 11fps until I finish the foreshots and heads then bring the heat up is that correct and should I also lower it near the tails, could some one please explain this so that it is clear, thanks.
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Re: Where to put the thermometer in a CCVM Stil

Post by bluefish_dist »

i have found running too fast isn't an issue until you are well over 20 fps. So even at 1400w you are still in a good range for speed and as you found your takeoff is faster. I would maybe take fores off at 1100w and then turn up to take off hearts.
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Re: Where to put the thermometer in a CCVM Stil

Post by artooks »

bluefish_dist wrote:i have found running too fast isn't an issue until you are well over 20 fps. So even at 1400w you are still in a good range for speed and as you found your takeoff is faster. I would maybe take fores off at 1100w and then turn up to take off hearts.
Thanks but what about late hearts and early tails would it be better to take is slow in that region also ? like going from 1400 watts to 1100 watts not to bring tails earlier ?
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Re: Where to put the thermometer in a CCVM Still

Post by KingE »

The way I do it is by running full power until I feel the heat most of the way up the column then I bring the heater down to normal power (1400 for you). I let it reflux fully for a bit. Then using the reflux condensor to control I let the foreshots out very slowly. Drip drip. Once foreshots are done I pull the condensor up to my normal takeoff position and let it go.

Not sure if I could do better, but this is what I’ve settled on and it seems to work well so far.
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Re: Where to put the thermometer in a CCVM Still

Post by artooks »

KingE wrote:The way I do it is by running full power until I feel the heat most of the way up the column then I bring the heater down to normal power (1400 for you). I let it reflux fully for a bit. Then using the reflux condensor to control I let the foreshots out very slowly. Drip drip. Once foreshots are done I pull the condensor up to my normal takeoff position and let it go.

Not sure if I could do better, but this is what I’ve settled on and it seems to work well so far.
Thanks,

That is similar I heat up at 80% power at initial heat up once I feels the heat travelling fast through the column I dial the powe down and reflux for 40 minutes than I start to distill but do all of you relux between foreshots, heads hearts and tails, I only do it at first than I do not do it but is there a benefit to do it between the cuts ?
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Re: Where to put the thermometer in a CCVM Stil

Post by BayouShine »

artooks wrote: Thanks but what about late hearts and early tails would it be better to take is slow in that region also ? like going from 1400 watts to 1100 watts not to bring tails earlier ?
If you feel like you're getting close to tails, close the coil completely and let the still balance out for a few minutes. After a little while, raise the coils but a little less than you were collecting your hearts. You're trying to compress the tails as best you can by slowing your collection rate and sending more alcohol into reflux.

Don't reduce your power. If anything, you'll have to turn it up a little higher since you've removed the majority of the alcohol during the hearts fraction.
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Re: Where to put the thermometer in a CCVM Still

Post by artooks »

Thanks BayouShine, so what you are saying that since we get all the hearts out and collected everything there is no need to reduce the power to collect tails, what I was referring to is to slow down during the late hearts in order to avoid the tails coming earlier, but what you are saying is there is no such thing am I correct ?
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Re: Where to put the thermometer in a CCVM Still

Post by BayouShine »

Tails are going to come no matter what you do. Reducing power won't help. All that will do is slow your vapor speed and crash your column.

Instead, use the coil and increase the reflux doing back down the column. Slowing down your collection rate here will help keep the hearts coming over as much as possible. I don't bother collecting tails from a neutral spirits run. It's not something I want in my drink.
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Re: Where to put the thermometer in a CCVM Still

Post by artooks »

BayouShine wrote:Tails are going to come no matter what you do. Reducing power won't help. All that will do is slow your vapor speed and crash your column.

Instead, use the coil and increase the reflux doing back down the column. Slowing down your collection rate here will help keep the hearts coming over as much as possible. I don't bother collecting tails from a neutral spirits run. It's not something I want in my drink.

I understand so in my last trial I increased the reflux rate by pushing down the rc and increased the power to 1100 watt in my 3 Gallon boiler so I am somewhere in 16 fps is this vapour speed accpetable, I must say that I get a continues stream I always thought it has to be like 3-4 drips per second
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Re: Where to put the thermometer in a CCVM Still

Post by BayouShine »

artooks wrote:I must say that I get a continues stream I always thought it has to be like 3-4 drips per second
A contiuous stream is good through the bulk of the hearts. Once you feel that you're getting close to your tails, slow down to 3-4 drop/sec. It's all about squeezing the last little bit of hearts out of the still.
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Re: Where to put the thermometer in a CCVM Still

Post by bluefish_dist »

I run full power to get up to temp, then reduce it by 30-50% to stabilize and prevent puking. Let it hot break while stabilizing, then bring heads off slowly. Once I am past the heads then bring up heat and open takeoff. As you run out of alcohol and hit tails, then I slowly close down to hold temp at the head.

By temp, I mean the temperature I want to hold for that days azeo. It varies depending on weather. Gives me quick feedback if the abv is changing. .1 deg is time for a increase in reflux.
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Re: Where to put the thermometer in a CCVM Still

Post by artooks »

bluefish_dist wrote:I run full power to get up to temp, then reduce it by 30-50% to stabilize and prevent puking. Let it hot break while stabilizing, then bring heads off slowly. Once I am past the heads then bring up heat and open takeoff. As you run out of alcohol and hit tails, then I slowly close down to hold temp at the head.

By temp, I mean the temperature I want to hold for that days azeo. It varies depending on weather. Gives me quick feedback if the abv is changing. .1 deg is time for a increase in reflux.
Thanks, so when you mean open take off after the heads do you mean opening it %50 %50 but doesn't it bring down the abv also, last time what I did was when I increased the power I also had to increase the reflux to hold azeo there is a sweet spot there
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Re: Where to put the thermometer in a CCVM Still

Post by bluefish_dist »

I have a regular VM, so I turn the knob on the valve. When running a flavored product I take off at say 5 turns for heads, 7-12 turns for hearts. For a neutral I might take off at 3-5 turns for heads, then ramp up to 7 turns for hearts after I turn up heat. Really depends how your rig runs. If you need more reflux as you add temp, do it.
The other thing you will notice when you take off heads, the temp will rise. For me it might start at 163.5 and go up to 164.1 once I get through the heads. I always do a abv check just to make sure I am holding azeo as well as use the temp gauge. If my run is long enough, the temp may change due to the weather changing during the day.
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Re: Where to put the thermometer in a CCVM Still

Post by kimbodious »

KingE wrote:The way I do it is by running full power until I feel the heat most of the way up the column then I bring the heater down to normal power (1400 for you). I let it reflux fully for a bit. Then using the reflux condensor to control I let the foreshots out very slowly. Drip drip. Once foreshots are done I pull the condensor up to my normal takeoff position and let it go.
Exactly what I do!
I have worked out the right level of power to be able to lift the bottom of the RC above the offtake without flooding the column and put out product around 95% at roughly 1.2 litres per hour. The sweet spot for me is where I can raise the RC past the offtake and get product at 95% without having to adjust the power or the water flow. Bluefish is right in that the power level is adjusted slightly depending on the ambient temperature. It is a good idea to insulate your column so that breeze or air currents don't affect the temperature of the column.
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Re: Where to put the thermometer in a CCVM Still

Post by cmac62 »

BayouShine wrote: Tue Jan 30, 2018 3:13 pm
artooks wrote: Hi, I know that I do not need a thermometer, but I like to watch the progress so do you have an 2" CCVM still if so you said that you run it between 2000-2500 so how much do you open the valve once it has been stabilised ?
I'm looking for the video that'll make this all a lot clearer, but I'm having trouble finding it. Edit: " onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

You're better off watching the sight glass rather than temp. Read up on fluidzed beds or aquatic environment. viewtopic.php?f=1&t=52930

Once you reach this state, your still becomes very easy to handle. Balance the distillate on top of the packing and hold it there under full reflux. Once it's stable, you can open the gate and start collecting. If your distillate falls back into the packing, you're collecting too fast so slow down a bit. Your still will tell you how fast it wants to go. The amount you open the gate is on a sliding scale between power and takeoff speed. You can't go by "half open" and expect things to turn out right.
Necro thread: I built a 2" CCVM awhile ago, have only run it a couple of times, but the last paragraph above is the best explanation of how to run it I have read to date. Maybe in the next week or two I'll get some wash done so I can make some neutral for my upcoming gin experiments. :thumbup:
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Re: Where to put the thermometer in a CCVM Still

Post by Saltbush Bill »

Between product output speed, taste, smell and what's written above you shouldn't need to be thermometer gazing.
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Re: Where to put the thermometer in a CCVM Still

Post by kimbodious »

That is the great thing about sharing direct observations instead of opinions or hearsay. A great thread!
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Re: Where to put the thermometer in a CCVM Still

Post by Euphoria »

I like thermometers. In fact I have several in my set-up. I like to know the temperature in my boiler, my column, my dephlegmater, and my cooling water temps. Just the "geeky" side of me coming out I guess.
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