CCVM RC coil lift mechanism

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Sk8brew
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CCVM RC coil lift mechanism

Post by Sk8brew »

I searched the site and came up empty. Has anyone made a mechanized way of precisely setting the RC coil height on a ccvm? I was thinking of using a linear gear drive or threaded rod or lead screw to be able to repeatedly set and move the coil during the run. The hope is to more precisely dial in the flow rate during the run. I am not trying to automate it, just turn a manual handle or something similar.
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Re: CCVM RC coil lift mechanism

Post by still_stirrin »

Beyond OCD. Attempting precision in the “imprecise process” is going to challenge you beyond frustration. But heck....get creative!

The thing with a condenser cooled vapor managed reflux system is that the water flowrate can vary and that will have a significant reaction to the reflux ratio. Small “dynamic changes” will keep you in hysteresis, literally. :crazy:

A conventional VM valve is much easier to set and maintain the reflux ratio without impact from the water flow rate variation. Sure, a valve is more expensive to start, but regulation is easier once you’ve started and set the ratio.

I’m not discounting the obvious advantages of the CCVM (cost and construction), but attempting to mechanize the coil setting is quite beyond practical economy for a hobby distiller. And commercial distillers would opt for a different toolset for high purity spirits production simply because of the control stability (and economics).
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Re: CCVM RC coil lift mechanism

Post by Setsumi »

i want to agree with SS, but... to manage CCVM you first need to know where the bottom of you coil is. i have a 15mm copper pipe as intlet to the coil that is longer than the coil on the outside of the column with a mark on the pipe that show the coil bottom.

then you need a way to lift your coil. i use the outside 15mm copper pipe to push the coil up.

then you need to keep your coil in position, i use a teespoon handle and stick it into a coil loop. this keep the coil at height. drop a coil or lift a coil. the coil is 9.3mm OD. it is precise enough. if you need more control you need beter energy control.
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StillerBoy
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Re: CCVM RC coil lift mechanism

Post by StillerBoy »

still_stirrin wrote: Mon Apr 26, 2021 8:12 am The thing with a condenser cooled vapor managed reflux system is that the water flowrate can vary and that will have a significant reaction to the reflux ratio. Small “dynamic changes” will keep you in hysteresis, literally.
Thank you SS for pointing the CCVM major weakness..

As the temp stability of a RC (which is affected by water temp and flow management)is of the utmost importance in maintaining a stable reflux action in the column of a reflux unit..

Yes they are easy to build, and are good as starter, but not the best unit available..

Mars
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Re: CCVM RC coil lift mechanism

Post by Setsumi »

StillerBoy wrote: Mon Apr 26, 2021 9:33 am
still_stirrin wrote: Mon Apr 26, 2021 8:12 am The thing with a condenser cooled vapor managed reflux system is that the water flowrate can vary and that will have a significant reaction to the reflux ratio. Small “dynamic changes” will keep you in hysteresis, literally.
Thank you SS for pointing the CCVM major weakness..

As the temp stability of a RC (which is affected by water temp and flow management)is of the utmost importance in maintaining a stable reflux action in the column of a reflux unit..

Yes they are easy to build, and are good as starter, but not the best unit available..

Mars
if one takes the inaccuracy of alcholmeters and thermometers that most hobby stillers use into account i think the CCVM can deliver on par with any other reflux management head... yes i can not make 96.7% but then i can not measure that with confidence. i bet few can make and measure that and proof it with a tested meter. but is it necessary? not to me.
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Re: CCVM RC coil lift mechanism

Post by kimbodious »

I only run my CCVM for neutral spirit. Water flow rate is set and forget, all I need is sufficient flow rate to be able to knock down all vapour when you have the RC coil in the lowest position.

I use a recirculating system for cooling water and a luxuriant amount of water flowing through the condensers. If I was using a domestic water supply and trying to conserve water then I can understand how uncontrolled fluctuations in water supply could be an issue. Fluctuating water supply in that setting is no more of an issue for CCVM’s than it is for CM or VM reflux stills. It is not a design issue it is a water supply issue.

I use three positions for the RC coil. Right down for total reflux. Up a little bit to draw off foreshots and up a bit more for heads and hearts. CCVM’s are so easy to operate that it becomes boring.
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Re: CCVM RC coil lift mechanism

Post by MartinCash »

StillerBoy wrote: Mon Apr 26, 2021 9:33 am Thank you SS for pointing the CCVM major weakness..

As the temp stability of a RC (which is affected by water temp and flow management)is of the utmost importance in maintaining a stable reflux action in the column of a reflux unit..

Yes they are easy to build, and are good as starter, but not the best unit available..

Mars
Firstly I need to disclose that I run a CCVM now, so I have an obvious bias.

Issues with water temperature and flow management in the reflux condenser will be pretty similar in any reflux still and have nothing to do with the collection rate. If you have trouble maintaining constant flow and temperature in a CCVM reflux condenser, you also would in an LM or VM reflux condenser. In practical use terms, I am seeing little difference between the VM I ran for 8 years and the CCVM I run now.
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Re: CCVM RC coil lift mechanism

Post by Sk8brew »

still_stirrin wrote: Mon Apr 26, 2021 8:12 am Beyond OCD. Attempting precision in the “imprecise process” is going to challenge you beyond frustration. But heck....get creative!
ss
I am not looking for precision, just repeatability. Turn a crank around 3 times to move the coil up an inch. Oops, flow is too fast, back it down a turn. I am using a corregated SS RC and the coils are at the bottom and hidden, so I have a hard time knowing where the coil is. Maybe I just need a way to mark it, but I thought someone may have come up with a cleaver solution already.
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Re: CCVM RC coil lift mechanism

Post by Saltbush Bill »

Sk8brew wrote: Mon Apr 26, 2021 7:10 pm and the coils are at the bottom and hidden, so I have a hard time knowing where the coil is. Maybe I just need a way to mark it,
I would have thought that watching the speed of the spirit leaving the still would be more important than knowing the position of the reflux coil within the column.
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Re: CCVM RC coil lift mechanism

Post by Deplorable »

Saltbush Bill wrote: Mon Apr 26, 2021 7:48 pm
Sk8brew wrote: Mon Apr 26, 2021 7:10 pm and the coils are at the bottom and hidden, so I have a hard time knowing where the coil is. Maybe I just need a way to mark it,
I would have thought that watching the speed of the spirit leaving the still would be more important than knowing the position of the reflux coil within the column.
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Re: CCVM RC coil lift mechanism

Post by kimbodious »

0E886ED1-1560-4AA9-93E6-2156EACE7ECD.jpeg
Top yellow zip tie marks total reflux. Bottom yellow zip tie for hearts. Somewhere in between for foreshots and heads. The spool section for my RC chamber is pretty long. The zip ties are put on the RC hose right where it exits the top of the RC chamber. Simple, just like me! :relaxed:
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Re: CCVM RC coil lift mechanism

Post by Yummyrum »

Well I don’t run a CCVM but I do run a VM and the valve is nearly 3 meters high and I need a ladder to reach it .
So while I have no real advice to offer the OP , I can say I can see a genuine reason for wanting to move that coil from the ground .

Levers , motorised lifters , what ever , I’m all for discussion on how to move that coil . Come on , don’t knock it , get your thinking caps on . :thumbup: :eugeek:

Hell , there’s not much we haven’t come up with , get your pencils out .Here’s a classic reason.
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Demy
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Re: CCVM RC coil lift mechanism

Post by Demy »

I am a very happy CCVM user, I think it's one of the things that gave a shock to our hobby. I had thought of a system with a threaded bar (I already had an idea of how to do) but then I abandoned the idea because I wanted to stay everything simple, so I use a metal wedge that serves to block the coil in various positions. I have not completely abandoned the idea but for the moment I set it down.
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Re: CCVM RC coil lift mechanism

Post by StillerBoy »

Sk8brew wrote: Mon Apr 26, 2021 7:10 pm I am not looking for precision, just repeatability.
But you should be..

Without a method of control for precision, how can one achieve repeatabiltiy..

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Re: CCVM RC coil lift mechanism

Post by StillerBoy »

MartinCash wrote: Mon Apr 26, 2021 2:43 pm Issues with water temperature and flow management in the reflux condenser will be pretty similar in any reflux still and have nothing to do with the collection rate. If you have trouble maintaining constant flow and temperature in a CCVM reflux condenser, you also would in an LM or VM reflux condenser. In practical use terms, I am seeing little difference between the VM I ran for 8 years and the CCVM I run now.
The point I was making reference to, what not that of take off rate, but the importance of stable vapor temperature during the refluxing activity to achieve maximum refluxing in a column..

Yeah.. there will be vapors refluxing within a wide range of water flow and water temp, but repectability and stable refluxing at the highest level (at the semi flooding state) throughout the run requires understanding of what the vapors are doing or achieving..

As from a practical point of running a reflux column, if one does not understand how refluxing occurs and how the RC and power management work in effecting the refluxing behavior, then one is operating a unit blindly..

Mars
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Re: CCVM RC coil lift mechanism

Post by Butch27 »

How about a rack and pinion.






.
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Re: CCVM RC coil lift mechanism

Post by Mr Sippy »

This is the type of diy mechanism I use to raise and lower the dust hood over the table saw.
20210427_120136.jpg
Edit- sorry about the inverted pic.
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Sk8brew
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Re: CCVM RC coil lift mechanism

Post by Sk8brew »

Butch27 wrote: Tue Apr 27, 2021 6:46 am How about a rack and pinion.
I like it. I might give a 3d printed version a try just for fun. And no, I won't put any plastic in the column.
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Re: CCVM RC coil lift mechanism

Post by Yummyrum »

It gets pretty hot up there .
Probably wouldn’t use PLA :moresarcasm:
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Re: CCVM RC coil lift mechanism

Post by Butch27 »

You could probably get a scrap bicycle, take the chain and a sprocket off it. Weld the chain to a straight bar or pipe and then mesh it with the sprocket. The piece of straight pipe might even be able to be salvaged off the bike. A multi speed bike would have several different size sprockets to choose from.
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Re: CCVM RC coil lift mechanism

Post by stillness »

These look interesting. The heart of it's done already.
IMG_20210427_215435.png
Sk8brew
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Re: CCVM RC coil lift mechanism

Post by Sk8brew »

Wow, nice find. I am not sure how thwy can sell the whole assembly for 9.99, but I am not complaining.
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Demy
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Re: CCVM RC coil lift mechanism

Post by Demy »

I don't think it is necessary to make complicated mechanisms for that job. Parts from a small diameter stainless steel threaded bar, a manex and some stainless steel nuts. CCVM was born as a simple management, you don't need to complicate it a lot.
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Re: CCVM RC coil lift mechanism

Post by stillness »

Demy, what's a manex? Agreed, kiss is best. Isn't that screw lead really similar to what you're talking about?

Ya, I don't understand pricing. Parrot kit, you solder -> $85 plus shipping. This crazy thing -> $10 to the door.
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Demy
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Re: CCVM RC coil lift mechanism

Post by Demy »

My bad English makes me express myself in a funny way ..... I wanted to say crank, knob. Yours is a solution very similar to what I meant .. with complicated mechanism I was referring to the videos above (excellent for other uses but complicated for us).
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Re: CCVM RC coil lift mechanism

Post by shadylane »

Sk8brew wrote: Mon Apr 26, 2021 6:49 am Has anyone made a mechanized way of precisely setting the RC coil height on a ccvm? I was thinking of using a linear gear drive or threaded rod or lead screw to be able to repeatedly set and move the coil during the run. The hope is to more precisely dial in the flow rate during the run. I am not trying to automate it, just turn a manual handle or something similar.
Something like a linear actuator might work.

Butch27
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Re: CCVM RC coil lift mechanism

Post by Butch27 »

I got to thinking that a Vernier control cable might be a nice solution for those with deeper pockets.


https://www.pegasusautoracing.com/produ ... oduct=3462
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