THE LAVA ROCK USAGE POST

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MereCashmere
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THE LAVA ROCK USAGE POST

Post by MereCashmere »

Bit of a tongue in cheek title; I found when researching packing there were a lot of posts and info for lava for 2” columns and not so much for 3” columns, so I’m hoping this at least helps one of you out.

Lava Rock

Here’s some things I’ve learned running lava rock. Feel free to post your questions here and me or someone else can answer them.

3”x36” CCVM
5500 watt element
Semi flooded state at 3500 watts +\-

I’m able to pull from a full keg charge of an 8-10% wash roughly a gallon to 1.5 gallons of azeo (95.6) or better (that comes back down to azeo with a nights rest) the whole run. Fastest I like to pull product is 3 liters an hour, but I can pull azeo+ at about 4 an hour, I just have to baby my rig more at that speed since the phase changes occur more rapidly.

1. For a three inch column, im using rocks the size (not necessarily the shape) of about two raisins. This meant buying 50 pounds of rock, sorting through it, and returning what I didn’t use. If you’re like me, sieves and screens won’t work; some rocks are big but flat as a coin; some are small and thin; I opted to hand pick my rocks. Time consuming, but it gives me piece of mind knowing they’re uniform. I bought these; American Fireglass LAVA-S-10...
2. I learned quickly that the less mesh I used, the better. I choked my column recently with a three inch roll of copper from being too packed down as the filter at the bottom of my column. Now I use one single scrubby on top of a perforated plate (think as little metal as possible to hold the scrubby)to make sure the lava doesn’t fall into the boiler.
3. The tails smell trapped in the lava doesn’t effect my final product. I rinse my lava in warm water and dry it and that’s all.
4. You want to find out how to drive your rig to maintain a semi flooded state. This means for me, 1 cm +\- fluid bed on the top of my packing while I’m drawing off my product@ 3500 watts in the beginning, and by the end I’m at about 4300 watts.
5. I use black lava; see Amazon link above. I have not used red.

Any more I think of I’ll post here.
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Re: THE LAVA ROCK USAGE POST

Post by zapata »

Good tips. I'll be the one to point out that there is no azeo "or better". That's what azeotrope means, the highest purity possible by distillation. If you're getting better than 95.6%, that means you are measuring ABV, not ABW, because the azeotrope is 97.2% ABV.
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Re: THE LAVA ROCK USAGE POST

Post by Salt Must Flow »

I have been using this lava rock for a while now with my 3" VM and I really like it. I used a kitty litter scooper to separate the small bits that fell through and kept what stayed in. I've used a few different methods of retaining the packing. I usually put 3-4 rolls of copper mesh at the base of the column. I pour some lava rock down the column, smack the side several times to make all settle/compact, pour in more and repeat until full. I found it really convenient to use a canning jar funnel to make filling the column easier.

Orifice Plate Gasket
Orifice Plate Gasket.jpg
Still Dragon Plate Gasket
Plate Gasket 01.jpg
Only copper wire using Still Dragon Plate Gasket
Wire Support 01.jpg
Lave Rock Packing.jpg
This is absolutely not a definitive 'how to' run a VM still with lava rock. This is just how I've been doing it. I use Wineos Plain Ol Sugar Wash recipe, 45 gal batches 8%-10% potential alcohol. I usually do a stripping run and stop once my total collected low wines reaches 40% ABV. I then dilute the low wines in the boiler as much as I can with water (down to approx 15% ABV or so) which really helps to make a cleaner product. My VM has a 6' column. During the spirit run I have been stabilizing the column at 40% power (2200W). I like to begin taking off very slow (3 full turns on my gate valve, approx 3 drips per second). Later I'll open the valve one full rotation and take off a little faster. Once I think I'm into hearts, I'll close the valve, stabilize at 50% power (2750W) and open the valve 6-7 rotations (3-3.86 lph). I'll check the ABV every so often and my hydrometer reads 97% at 60F throughout the entire run. Once the output appears to slow a bit, I'll reduce the takeoff to 6 turns then 5 turns. Once the vapor temp temp starts to rise a couple 1/10th degree F I'll close the valve, reduce power to 45% (2475W) compress/stabilize, open 3 turns and squeeze out all I can get until I hit tails. I run hot water through the column, pour the lava rock into net/mesh bags, rinse them again and let the bags drip dry.

I have tried running my lava rock as high as 55% power (3025W) and never experienced even a hint of flooding or fizzing. I even bought a stethoscope so I could hear the column very well. It just sounds like hhhhhhhhhhh. The main reason I run at lower power than others is because of the topic of 'vapor speed'. There are vapor speed calculators and most recommend an operating rage of 12 - 20" per minute 31%-51% 1700W-2800W using a 5500W element. I see people running at much higher power, but I'm worried I would be pushing tails up the column or disturbing the equilibrium of the column. I want to get near SPP performance, but don't want to pay $$$ big bucks $$$ for SPP. Most SPP isn't designed for 3" stills from what I've read.

The best I could ever get using copper mesh or stainless scrubbers is 95% ABV. Scrubbers are finicky, they flood if packed too tight and put out low ABV if packed too loose so structured packing is ideal in my opinion. I tried 1/2" ceramic packing and it would often flood and the best it would make is 92% ABV so that was a step backwards. This lava rock easily puts out 97% ABV consistently.
Last edited by Salt Must Flow on Fri May 13, 2022 1:53 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: THE LAVA ROCK USAGE POST

Post by MereCashmere »

zapata wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 12:41 pm Good tips. I'll be the one to point out that there is no azeo "or better". That's what azeotrope means, the highest purity possible by distillation. If you're getting better than 95.6%, that means you are measuring ABV, not ABW, because the azeotrope is 97.2% ABV.
Hey Zapata!

I agree… however I didn’t recall the exact numbers whilst typing this out on my break earlier. Thank you for the clarification!
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Re: THE LAVA ROCK USAGE POST

Post by MereCashmere »

Salt Must Flow wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 12:47 pm
Hi Salt! Excellent tips; I’ve read your passage regarding the gasket many times and it’s great for those with any size column. Thank you
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Re: THE LAVA ROCK USAGE POST

Post by cranky »

I run pretty much the same way on my 3.5" column packed with scoria that I crushed and painstakingly sized by hand. Best results are with a fluidized bed (AKA partially flooded)
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Re: THE LAVA ROCK USAGE POST

Post by subbrew »

Still building my 3" reflux column. I was planning on going with marbles but you are all making a good case for lava rock.
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Re: THE LAVA ROCK USAGE POST

Post by Salt Must Flow »

subbrew wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 6:16 pm Still building my 3" reflux column. I was planning on going with marbles but you are all making a good case for lava rock.
I don't think you'll regret it. It works very well, it's relatively inexpensive, it's readily available, it's repeatable and it's not finicky like some other common packings where you have to judge how tight you roll it (copper mesh) or how tight you compress it (stainless scrubbers). In my opinion you'll be multiple steps ahead of others by starting out with it. If you find that something works better in the future without costing an arm & a leg (like SPP), I'd LOVE to hear about it. I've never tried marbles, but I can't imagine that they would work better.
Last edited by Salt Must Flow on Fri May 13, 2022 7:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: THE LAVA ROCK USAGE POST

Post by The Baker »

Hi, MereCashmere,
You said, '1. For a three inch column, I'm using rocks the size (not necessarily the shape) of about two raisins.

From the web...
"In the US, raisins are typically made from the Thompson Seedless variety.

However, in Australia, raisins are made exclusively from larger grape varieties including Muscat, Lexia and Waltham Cross, and are often larger than sultanas for this reason."

I am guessing you are American.
From the size of the lava rock pieces in the picture I guess your raisins are our sultanas...

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Re: THE LAVA ROCK USAGE POST

Post by Salt Must Flow »

That's funny, MereCashmere the picture in your original post doesn't show for me, only a large empty space gap in your post. I've seen this before, but I have no clue as to why. I mostly use a PC while others may be using mobile devices. Did you use an app in your original post?
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Post by OtisT »

Rocks have been working really well for me. I enjoy running them. I like how slow they react to change versus mesh.

I recently went from 1/2”- to 1/4”- in size and saw a good increase in ABV on my shorter than it should be Column.

This is the new size I just switched to.
My new sized cinder rocks.  1/4” - 1/8”
My new sized cinder rocks. 1/4” - 1/8”
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Re: THE LAVA ROCK USAGE POST

Post by Salt Must Flow »

OtisT wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 7:29 pm Rocks have been working really well for me. I enjoy running them. I like how slow they react to change versus mesh.

I recently went from 1/2”- to 1/4”- in size and saw a good increase in ABV on my shorter than it should be Column.

This is the new size I just switched to.
BEE65DCC-4F90-46A5-97EB-9565382B3C7C.jpeg

Otis
That is very interesting. Have you found that your takeoff rate is still the same with a shorter column or higher? That also makes me wonder what power you are running, what your takeoff rate is as well as what your ABV is.
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Re: THE LAVA ROCK USAGE POST

Post by shadylane »

The black glass type of scoria this size, looks just right, for a 3 or 4" column :thumbup:
Lave Rock Packing.jpg
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Re: THE LAVA ROCK USAGE POST

Post by MereCashmere »

Subbrew; you literally can’t lose with lava. If you find you don’t like it, you’re out less than $50, realistically less than that if you return what you don’t use. Let us k ow what you think!

Baker; sultanas are exactly what I’m thinking about; we have them here too, they’re sweeter and red compared to normal raisins but roughly the same size!

Salt; just posted it from my phone, it shows up for me but I know the glitch you refer to. It’s just an Amazon pic so you’re not missing much.

Otis; I tried a 30” column and was able to pull azeo but it took more babying; how has working with a shorter column been? I’m curious about your experience.

Shady, those are looking about exactly the same size as my rocks.
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Re: THE LAVA ROCK USAGE POST

Post by OtisT »

MereCashmere,
I ran a 2” column that could pull azeo with around 36-40” of mesh packing, but it was slow as you would expect. Never tried rock in that column. My current packing height choice is due to having a limited height to work with in the shed, and I’d rather have more height if I could. My new column is 4” and that appears to require more height to achieve the same. I’ve read the rule of thumb that the packing height should be 15-20 times diameter to reach azeo, so not hitting azeo in my 4” with limited height is no surprise. What I have now is more packing height than I have run is a long time, and at 52” is as much as I can get with my limited ceiling height. I’m actually quite happy going from 92% using about 48” of 1/2”- rock with a CM head to 95% with 52” of the smaller 1/4”- rock with a VM. At 5000w with my 1” valve wide open I’m still pulling 95% at a rate of 3 liters/hour. I was able to get 4 liters/hour out of the same column with a CM head, but that was 48” of big rock at 92%. I want to load the big rocks back in at 52” to understand how much of the abv improvement was from the extra 4” of height versus how much is from the smaller rock. Otis
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Post by Skál »

"Its an older title but it checks out" :clap:

Genuinely looking forward to this thread, hope it gets plenty of input. I've had SPP from the start but the £ put me off at the start too. Lava Rock had plenty of posts back then but there was never any definitive answers to its use from what I remember given different brands and sizes. Will be cool to see how this progresses.

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Re: THE LAVA ROCK USAGE POST

Post by MereCashmere »

Skál wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 5:28 pm "Its an older title but it checks out" :clap:

Genuinely looking forward to this thread, hope it gets plenty of input. I've had SPP from the start but the £ put me off at the start too. Lava Rock had plenty of posts back then but there was never any definitive answers to its use from what I remember given different brands and sizes. Will be cool to see how this progresses.

Skál
Hey thanks for joining Skal! As I stated in my fluid bed post I’m realizing I want to try and compress some info I’ve found over my hours of reading this site, so that new stillers may not have to read quite so much and can find some definitive places for answers.
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Post by Skál »

MereCashmere wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 6:42 pm
Skál wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 5:28 pm "Its an older title but it checks out" :clap:

Genuinely looking forward to this thread, hope it gets plenty of input. I've had SPP from the start but the £ put me off at the start too. Lava Rock had plenty of posts back then but there was never any definitive answers to its use from what I remember given different brands and sizes. Will be cool to see how this progresses.

Skál
Hey thanks for joining Skal! As I stated in my fluid bed post I’m realizing I want to try and compress some info I’ve found over my hours of reading this site, so that new stillers may not have to read quite so much and can find some definitive places for answers.
Same for my SPP post. There is a lot of info on SPP on Odins and DADS original post but it seemed to lose continuity in places while they were helping others with their problems etc. (He says while doing the same to your post hahaha). Ill shut up and stop derailing. I was lucky to find 2 or 3 others with comparible set ups to mine for tests. Hope you manage the same !

Skál


Edit added. No idea of your experience but certainly the thing I noticed going for aezo with SPP was being TOO conservative. Its nature to be safe when going for aezo because you don't want to mess up but I've found I'm getting better and better results really pushing things. Pretty sure rock will hold a lot of heat like SPP,has good surface area too so pushing hard might translate to your still too. Just a though and can't help more sorry. Never used lava rock.
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Re: THE LAVA ROCK USAGE POST

Post by Skál »

Hey MC. I thought your name looked familiar other than the post title. You were in my SPP thread doh!

Was reading your post there about "smearing on full power" . Perhaps lava rock is different but with SPP as long as you knock down the vapour and don't flood up to collection plates on a boka power isn't really a problem. All you should get is increased distillation with a lower Hetp. Changing power input during a run WILL cause smearing and entrainment without waiting for equilibrium again obviously.

Have a go at running it past your comfort zone,you might be pleasantly surprised.

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Post by bunny »

A small piece of data for anyone who's interested.
P1050201.JPG
The red lava in the right front of the picture approximately 1/8-1/4" size pieces tested to less than 2cm hetp using odin's methods.

I had 12" (30cm) of this in a two inch(1.875"id) stainless spool and I could still remove azeo.
The vapor temperature at the top suggested azeo as well as the distillate after cooling to 60*f.
According to odin's method this means the hetp is less than 2cm (30cm divided by 15 plates).

I had 4 gallons of 10% hand prepped charge in my sixtel boiler.
It wanted to flood pretty bad and wouldn't take much over 700w.

YMMV
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Re: THE LAVA ROCK USAGE POST

Post by Salt Must Flow »

bunny wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 7:31 am A small piece of data for anyone who's interested.

P1050201.JPG

The red lava in the right front of the picture approximately 1/8-1/4" size pieces tested to less than 2cm hetp using odin's methods.

I had 12" (30cm) of this in a two inch(1.875"id) stainless spool and I could still remove azeo.
The vapor temperature at the top suggested azeo as well as the distillate after cooling to 60*f.
According to odin's method this means the hetp is less than 2cm (30cm divided by 15 plates).

I had 4 gallons of 10% hand prepped charge in my sixtel boiler.
It wanted to flood pretty bad and wouldn't take much over 700w.

YMMV
I've never used a 2" column, but if that lava rock is flooding at around 700W, it makes me think that either there is some kind of restriction below the packing, that packing is too small or both. I use approx 3/8" size lava rock in a 3"x6' column and never experienced any signs of flooding even at 3025W. Others here run at significantly higher power too. The good thing is, it's an easy fix. Lava Rock is cheap and eliminating any potential restriction is also very simple.
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Re: THE LAVA ROCK USAGE POST

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Salt Must Flow wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 8:10 am
bunny wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 7:31 am A small piece of data for anyone who's interested.

P1050201.JPG

The red lava in the right front of the picture approximately 1/8-1/4" size pieces tested to less than 2cm hetp using odin's methods.

I had 12" (30cm) of this in a two inch(1.875"id) stainless spool and I could still remove azeo.
The vapor temperature at the top suggested azeo as well as the distillate after cooling to 60*f.
According to odin's method this means the hetp is less than 2cm (30cm divided by 15 plates).

I had 4 gallons of 10% hand prepped charge in my sixtel boiler.
It wanted to flood pretty bad and wouldn't take much over 700w.

YMMV
I've never used a 2" column, but if that lava rock is flooding at around 700W, it makes me think that either there is some kind of restriction below the packing, that packing is too small or both. I use approx 3/8" size lava rock in a 3"x6' column and never experienced any signs of flooding even at 3025W. Others here run at significantly higher power too. The good thing is, it's an easy fix. Lava Rock is cheap and eliminating any potential restriction is also very simple.

I'm kind of surprised you have no comment on the 2cm hetp.
Have you tried to determine your hetp?
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Re: THE LAVA ROCK USAGE POST

Post by Salt Must Flow »

bunny wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 8:51 am
Salt Must Flow wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 8:10 am
bunny wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 7:31 am A small piece of data for anyone who's interested.

P1050201.JPG

The red lava in the right front of the picture approximately 1/8-1/4" size pieces tested to less than 2cm hetp using odin's methods.

I had 12" (30cm) of this in a two inch(1.875"id) stainless spool and I could still remove azeo.
The vapor temperature at the top suggested azeo as well as the distillate after cooling to 60*f.
According to odin's method this means the hetp is less than 2cm (30cm divided by 15 plates).

I had 4 gallons of 10% hand prepped charge in my sixtel boiler.
It wanted to flood pretty bad and wouldn't take much over 700w.

YMMV
I've never used a 2" column, but if that lava rock is flooding at around 700W, it makes me think that either there is some kind of restriction below the packing, that packing is too small or both. I use approx 3/8" size lava rock in a 3"x6' column and never experienced any signs of flooding even at 3025W. Others here run at significantly higher power too. The good thing is, it's an easy fix. Lava Rock is cheap and eliminating any potential restriction is also very simple.

I'm kind of surprised you have no comment on the 2cm hetp.
Have you tried to determine your hetp?
No, I have not done that test yet. I deliberately made my column in 4 segments, but in total it is 6' tall. I have mostly tried to get the best performance I could with the packing I used at the time. I played with different power levels, takeoff rates and test the ABV (smell, dilute/taste). Lava rock has been the very best I've ever tried. One day I'll test the HETP just to know what it is, but I don't mind a tall column.

Did I misunderstand you? Are you saying that your 2" is performing optimally at 700W and getting a good take-off rate? If so, I wasn't trying to refute your findings. I just thought that was an awfully low power level to experience flooding.
Last edited by Salt Must Flow on Thu May 19, 2022 9:26 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: THE LAVA ROCK USAGE POST

Post by StillerBoy »

bunny wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 7:31 am It wanted to flood pretty bad and wouldn't take much over 700w.
Three things come to mind..

1).. restriction of the distillate being unable to return which is usually caused by not having the right setup holding the packing.. the use of any scrubbies will restrict the returning distillate to some degree, and are not needed when a properly constructed holder is put in place..

2).. the length of column used will call for less power than had a long column been used..

3).. the management of the water flow to the condenser was not set right, and if the flow is to slow/low, flooding over the condenser top will occur before flooding of the whole column, which is almost impossible to do..

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Re: THE LAVA ROCK USAGE POST

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Salt Must Flow wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 9:17 am
bunny wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 8:51 am
Salt Must Flow wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 8:10 am
bunny wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 7:31 am A small piece of data for anyone who's interested.

P1050201.JPG

The red lava in the right front of the picture approximately 1/8-1/4" size pieces tested to less than 2cm hetp using odin's methods.

I had 12" (30cm) of this in a two inch(1.875"id) stainless spool and I could still remove azeo.
The vapor temperature at the top suggested azeo as well as the distillate after cooling to 60*f.
According to odin's method this means the hetp is less than 2cm (30cm divided by 15 plates).

I had 4 gallons of 10% hand prepped charge in my sixtel boiler.
It wanted to flood pretty bad and wouldn't take much over 700w.

YMMV
I've never used a 2" column, but if that lava rock is flooding at around 700W, it makes me think that either there is some kind of restriction below the packing, that packing is too small or both. I use approx 3/8" size lava rock in a 3"x6' column and never experienced any signs of flooding even at 3025W. Others here run at significantly higher power too. The good thing is, it's an easy fix. Lava Rock is cheap and eliminating any potential restriction is also very simple.

I'm kind of surprised you have no comment on the 2cm hetp.
Have you tried to determine your hetp?
No, I have not done that test yet. I deliberately made my column in 4 segments, but in total it is 6' tall. I have mostly tried to get the best performance I could with the packing I used at the time. I played with different power levels, takeoff rates and test the ABV (smell, dilute/taste). Lava rock has been the very best I've ever tried. One day I'll test the HETP just to know what it is, but I don't mind a tall column.

Did I misunderstand you? Are you saying that your 2" is performing optimally at 700W and getting a good take-off rate? If so, I wasn't trying to refute your findings. I just thought that was an awfully low power level to experience flooding.
I can see this is going to be difficult.
My original post was to demonstrate a test of this size scoria to show hetp via odin's methods.
It has nothing to do with performing optimally with or without a good take-off rate or where a column may experience flooding at any particular wattage.
It's to show where you can no longer take off azeo at a particular height of packing with a prescribed charge.
I could still take off azeo at 30cm signifying an hetp of 2cm or less by odin's method.
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Re: THE LAVA ROCK USAGE POST

Post by Oatmeal »

2 cm. Geeze! How did the lava compare to the SPP?
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Re: THE LAVA ROCK USAGE POST

Post by MereCashmere »

bunny wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 7:31 am A small piece of data for anyone who's interested.

P1050201.JPG

The red lava in the right front of the picture approximately 1/8-1/4" size pieces tested to less than 2cm hetp using odin's methods.

I had 12" (30cm) of this in a two inch(1.875"id) stainless spool and I could still remove azeo.
The vapor temperature at the top suggested azeo as well as the distillate after cooling to 60*f.
According to odin's method this means the hetp is less than 2cm (30cm divided by 15 plates).

I had 4 gallons of 10% hand prepped charge in my sixtel boiler.
It wanted to flood pretty bad and wouldn't take much over 700w.

YMMV
Holy shit… 12 inches and pulling azeo is amazing. What was your takeoff rate?
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Re: THE LAVA ROCK USAGE POST

Post by bunny »

Oatmeal wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 10:15 am 2 cm. Geeze! How did the lava compare to the SPP?
I'm using manu's 2.4 x 2.4 x .25mm spp.
It's in the upper left of the picture.
I tested it a while back and freaked myself out.
It approached 1.5-1.6cm which I thought might be a little off.
So I just shut up and used 2cm as a round number to do my estimating.
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bunny
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Re: THE LAVA ROCK USAGE POST

Post by bunny »

MereCashmere wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 10:26 am
bunny wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 7:31 am A small piece of data for anyone who's interested.

P1050201.JPG

The red lava in the right front of the picture approximately 1/8-1/4" size pieces tested to less than 2cm hetp using odin's methods.

I had 12" (30cm) of this in a two inch(1.875"id) stainless spool and I could still remove azeo.
The vapor temperature at the top suggested azeo as well as the distillate after cooling to 60*f.
According to odin's method this means the hetp is less than 2cm (30cm divided by 15 plates).

I had 4 gallons of 10% hand prepped charge in my sixtel boiler.
It wanted to flood pretty bad and wouldn't take much over 700w.

YMMV
Holy shit… 12 inches and pulling azeo is amazing. What was your takeoff rate?
It's obvious you guys aren't paying attention.
My take off rate for the test is next to nothing.
All that matters is that I get enough to determine ABV at 60*f.
If it's azeo the height of the packing can be reduced until it's not azeo.
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Saltbush Bill
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Re: THE LAVA ROCK USAGE POST

Post by Saltbush Bill »

bunny wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 10:34 am My take off rate for the test is next to nothing.
It would be worse than watching paint dry, how else could you possibly get anywhere near Azeo with a column that short.
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