First AG - Taking the plunge

Production methods from starch to sugars.

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Re: First AG - Taking the plunge

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A quick update on things.

Continued the 1 gallon experiment overnight, just to see if there was anything running slowly. Pushed the temp back to 145, covered and wrapped and left overnight. Final result is SG unchanged, so I draw the final result. All available starches were converted, nothing was running slow. I will in the near future run another 1 gallon batch of malted grain only, from this I should be able to correctly calculate the available starches in the feed grains.

Moving on to the main event, the first full mash.

Based on the results of the test batch I've made a couple of changes to my procedure and plan.

1) Due to the apparent poor quality of the feed grain, increase feed grain by 20# --> 50#
2) Rather than splitting the water into two batches I will dump all 30 gallons in one go.

Edit: - Update.

I've started the mash, 30 gallons of water and 50# feed grain is in the mashtun and cooking!

As the 1 gallon test was down to temp, I've mixed it with my yeast in a separate bucket. Should make a nice starter which pitch time comes around. :-)
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Re: First AG - Taking the plunge

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Must be nice to have the room to just add 20# to a 60#mash (2.66 lb/gal). What kind of vessel are you mashing in?

Great job on using the gallon starter. I started doing this with my very first AG batch ever and have continued ever since. There is the benefit of the yeast acclimating to the starter composition (my starters always mirror my mash recipe exactly) plus it only takes 3gm of hydrated yeast to inoculate a gallon starter. I usually make up 2 gallons of starter and store in the fridge in 1/2 gal mason jars.

One word of wisdom though. You want to make your starters closer to 1.040 than 1.060. Why is this? As versatile as yeast are, they don't have the ability to judge the viability of the medium they are introduced into. They hydrate indiscriminately and absorbing a higher gravity liquid can cause the yeast cell walls to rupture, thus killing the yeast.

Save your 1 gal malt test for your next mash starter and you can just dilute accordingly to get to 1.040.
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Re: First AG - Taking the plunge

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Twisted Brick wrote:Must be nice to have the room to just add 20# to a 60#mash (2.66 lb/gal). What kind of vessel are you mashing in?
Mashing in a 50g barrel wrapped with reflect-ex insulation, sitting on a wheel base.
Twisted Brick wrote: Great job on using the gallon starter. I started doing this with my very first AG batch ever and have continued ever since. There is the benefit of the yeast acclimating to the starter composition (my starters always mirror my mash recipe exactly) plus it only takes 3gm of hydrated yeast to inoculate a gallon starter. I usually make up 2 gallons of starter and store in the fridge in 1/2 gal mason jars.

One word of wisdom though. You want to make your starters closer to 1.040 than 1.060. Why is this? As versatile as yeast are, they don't have the ability to judge the viability of the medium they are introduced into. They hydrate indiscriminately and absorbing a higher gravity liquid can cause the yeast cell walls to rupture, thus killing the yeast.
Definitely. i'm following my normal process for yeast hydration. I mixed the a cup of yeast with about 3/4 gallon of luke warm water for hydration, 30 minutes, gentle stir. After which I mixed it with the 1 gallon of the test, grain and all, stirred and put a loose cover on it.
Counting the hydration water, the starter should be 1.024 or thereabouts. Nice and low on the osmotic pressure I think.
Twisted Brick wrote:Save your 1 gal malt test for your next mash starter and you can just dilute accordingly to get to 1.040.
Definitely, that's a good plan.

Just checked the started and I can surely say those are some happy yeast; its formed a cap and its banging away at a good pace. :D
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Re: First AG - Taking the plunge

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Expat wrote:I've started the mash, 30 gallons of water and 50# feed grain is in the mashtun and cooking!
Update on progress:

Thank god for paint mixers and 1/2" drills; the barley is gelling up nicely. Regular stirring every 30 minutes or so.

3.5 hours steeping now and the temp has fallen to 176. I've taken the lid off to hopefully accelerate the process as its a huge thermal mass lol

Waiting for it to hit the strike temp so I can add the malted barley. This stuff is already quite a thick porridge so i'm curious to see if I can even manage the malt without having to add more water. I'm assuming that the enzymes will help to thin things up. So perhaps in stages. Learning.
rps20181118_140609.jpg
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Re: First AG - Taking the plunge

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Expat wrote: This stuff is already quite a thick porridge so i'm curious to see if I can even manage the malt without having to add more water.
I'd be tempted to take a pound or two of malt, grind it up fine in a spice/coffee grinder and mix it in to thin the mash up at 155F prior to adding the bulk of your 2-row. The enzymes should last long enough to do the job.
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Re: First AG - Taking the plunge

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Twisted Brick wrote:I'd be tempted to take a pound or two of malt, grind it up fine in a spice/coffee grinder and mix it in to thin the mash up at 155F prior to adding the bulk of your 2-row. The enzymes should last long enough to do the job.
Excellent suggestion! I've ground up some malt extra dusty, ready to go.

At the moment i'm fighting my own stupidity with temperature. Presently holding at 179F, up from my previous measurement, apparently the result of stirring. So the learning moment about how hot my water should be. Sigh. :oops:

In an attempt to cool things down, I've scrapped together a small wort chiller, about 15' 3/8" and 10' of 1/4" soft copper. Seems to be working okay as the water is coming back hot. Better than nothing for 5 minutes work.

Carrying on.

Edit: suicided about 2 oz of malt flour... and the mash is soooo much easier to work with. Less than half as thick in about 2 minutes.
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Re: First AG - Taking the plunge

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The make shift wort chiller worked pretty well.

Hit the strike temp and added 30# of malt. Big stir.

Back to regular stirring schedule.
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Re: First AG - Taking the plunge

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Way to go, Expat. I’m pullin’ for ya! Show us scarredy-cats how to do it!!!!
Good luck, buddy!
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Re: First AG - Taking the plunge

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Your mash bill is 50% malted and 50% unmalted barley.
Why are you milling all the grains fine and gelatinizing the unmalted barley using the no cook method.
Then mix everything together, mashing, fermenting and then squeezing.
Wouldn't it be easier to mash, lauder and ferment off the grain?
I've had bad luck fermenting 100% barley on the grain. Too much phenolic flavors came from the barley husks.
I'm guessing, a finer grind, and boiling water from the no cook, would release even more phenolic flavors.
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Re: First AG - Taking the plunge

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shadylane wrote:I've had bad luck fermenting 100% barley on the grain. Too much phenolic flavors came from the barley husks.
I'm guessing, a finer grind, and boiling water from the no cook, would release even more phenolic flavors.
You had me running to check on my aging 100% barley for a taste test. Maybe I'm just lucky, but my ferment on the grain
is quite tasty. Not second guessing you shadylane, just pointing out my experience.
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Re: First AG - Taking the plunge

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Okay, so I went to bed last night before I post, dam, but it was a long day. Definitely need to be smarter about my temperature control.

A couple of notes and the results.

The water I used for the gel phase of the feed grains was too hot. It took too long to cool down, wasted a lot of my day. My focus was on ensuring that I correctly gelled the grain, not on how long it should take.

Second, I was betrayed by my old friend the thermometer. I checked it in the morning, but during the day at some point it must have gotten messed up because, as it turns out I was chasing temps that weren't there. E.g. I stirred after adding the malt and the temp appeared to increase. Grabbed a spare, but I think part of my stress around temp was caused by this.

Results:

I put some mash through a filter and did an iodine test, it was clear golden and disappeared with stirring.

I similarly strained out a sample for my hydrometer and the results are good, great actually. Final SG is 1.072 (temp adjusted).

Well that's certainly higher than hoped. Seems like success to me :D unless one of you more learned folks can see a concern.

Used my craptastic wort chiller to bring the temp down to pitch at 90f for the bakers yeast, and we're off to the races!

Big thanks to everyone for helping to reach this point! I know for sure that there are many things that I could do better but at least I mostly succeeded. :lol:



Shady, I had to read you post a couple times to understand it.
shadylane wrote: Wouldn't it be easier to mash, lauder and ferment off the grain?
I've had bad luck fermenting 100% barley on the grain. Too much phenolic flavors came from the barley husks.
I'm guessing, a finer grind, and boiling water from the no cook, would release even more phenolic flavors.
Honestly I wasn't aware of this type of issue, I'll need to do some reading as I don't know what a phenolic flavor is. But if I do as you suggest, i.e. squeeze before I ferment, aren't I running a much bigger risk of infection?

In this case, the dice were cast before I saw your message. But I would like to understand better for the next time around. Reading your 100% steamed thread, I see your similar experience. I'm not sure my grind was as fine as yours, plenty of large hull fragments to be see.

Edit: grind pic
rps20181119_084341.jpg
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Re: First AG - Taking the plunge

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Sorry for confusing you :lol:
If I remember correctly, My grind was a little finer.
When mashed, the husks made a really good glue :lol:
Recently I brewed a mash similar to yours using malted and unmalted barley.
Instead of fermenting on the grain, I used beer making protocol. I strained and rinsed the sugar rich wort from the mashed grains.
Then fermented only the liquid. This was easier and tastier than fermenting on the grain and squeezing.
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Re: First AG - Taking the plunge

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shadylane wrote: I've had bad luck fermenting 100% barley on the grain. Too much phenolic flavors came from the barley husks.
I'm guessing, a finer grind, and boiling water from the no cook, would release even more phenolic flavors.
There are those who believe fermenting barley on-grain (Jimbo) provides slightly more flavor, and those who lauter and ferment off-grain for the convenience. Sure, the big boys ferment off-grain, but they work with an entirely different dynamic and are scaled to take advantage of 2nd and 3rd waters. For off-grain, since barley gels at a relatively low temp, it's logical to apply a standard beer crush, leaving as much of the husk intact as possible for lautering efficiency and minimizing off-flavors.

Just curious, Expat: how hot was your strike water for the micron barley? Unfortunately, the larger the volume of mash the more heat it will retain. Great call on the wort chiller. I like to hold back a portion of mash water in the fridge so after my HTL enzyme has done its work I can lower the mash to malt temp in a minute or three.

Looks like your first AG was a resounding success! :clap:
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Re: First AG - Taking the plunge

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Twisted Brick wrote: Just curious, Expat: how hot was your strike water for the micron barley? Unfortunately, the larger the volume of mash the more heat it will retain. Great call on the wort chiller. I like to hold back a portion of mash water in the fridge so after my HTL enzyme has done its work I can lower the mash to malt temp in a minute or three.

Looks like your first AG was a resounding success! :clap:
Thanks Twisted :D

The strike water temp was definitely one of my mistakes. 30 gallons total @ boil 212F. This speaks to my inexperience, I was concerned about the temp falling too fast and not getting the correct gel on the micron barely. I've learned a lot from the process, things I would think should have been obvious, but I was focused on all the other details. As you suggested, holding back some of the water makes sense.

The wort chiller I made, while functional definitely could have been better, yay for scrap parts. I'll rebuild that before any further attempts. It's amazing how effective it is.

The duration of the process does make me worried about infection. My fingers are crossed that I get a clean fermentation.

Much learning.
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Re: First AG - Taking the plunge

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Expat wrote: I know for sure that there are many things that I could do better but at least I mostly succeeded.
You not only "mostly succeeded"
You documented your efforts and shared with us. :thumbup:
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Re: First AG - Taking the plunge

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shadylane wrote:
Expat wrote: I know for sure that there are many things that I could do better but at least I mostly succeeded.
You not only "mostly succeeded"
You documented your efforts and shared with us. :thumbup:
Thanks Shady! I've definitely learned a lot through this process, soo many things I could do better. I'm glad I could perhaps give a little back.

An update on where things stand.

So I pitched my starter and everything took off like a rocket, a very aggressive ferment to be sure. However.... there is an issue, a big one, its definitely picked up a butyric infection. The result is a fairly funky mix of grain, baking bread and puke. SIGH :roll:

At a guess, i'd say its the slow cool down which allowed time for the infection to take hold. Even with a solid yeast colony apparently running in parallel, it doesn't bode well, given all the things I've read in the last couple hours. I'm still going to wait and run it, but its not going to end well I think. Learning!

Things to do differently:
- Soak water was way too hot which resulted in too long a cool down. Reduce water temp significantly.
- Build a better wort chiller. The makeshift one worked, but bigger will be better for the job and get that temp down quick.
- More sanitation. Double down on cleaning everything, and then do it again.
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Re: First AG - Taking the plunge

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Sorry buddy. Maybe it will turn the corner before stripping day. As I think HDNB told me, better go ahead and get it on. The infections can do more damage the longer they have to work. :shock:
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Re: First AG - Taking the plunge

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GCB3 wrote:Sorry buddy. Maybe it will turn the corner before stripping day. As I think HDNB told me, better go ahead and get it on. The infections can do more damage the longer they have to work. :shock:
I'm assuming here, but wouldn't the infection be eating the sugars also? So i'd think it would be better to let it the yeast get as much as they can and then run it. Its going to contain the taste anyways, but perhaps more ethanol this way. Not my favorite smell, going to need as gas mask.

Its going to be an esterification game that's for sure. Perhaps it'll be my first batch of pineapple whisky LOL
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Re: First AG - Taking the plunge

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Expat wrote: An update on where things stand.

So I pitched my starter and everything took off like a rocket, a very aggressive ferment to be sure. However.... there is an issue, a big one, its definitely picked up a butyric infection. The result is a fairly funky mix of grain, baking bread and puke. SIGH :roll:
Don't abbandon the ship yet.
It might make a good whiskey
Give it a day or two. The puke smell may dissipate
The yeast will lower the pH and produce enough alcohol to poison the bacteria.
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Re: First AG - Taking the plunge

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shadylane wrote: Don't abbandon the ship yet.
It might make a good whiskey
Not quitting, moving forward. Are you thinking esterification, something else, or just a straight up run?
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Re: First AG - Taking the plunge

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Not sure exactly why but
Barley, oats and any grain with a husk is prone to getting an infection.
I've read that mash temps are supposed to be high enough for pasteurization, but no-body told the bacteria :lol:
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If I remember correctly, butyric acid can be caused by less than sanitary conditions coupled with low dissolved oxygen levels in the wash during the yeast respiration phase of fermentation. Hold tight and just double run as normal. It might take the second run to find out your product is just fine. Oh, and remember to aerate the piss outta your next large ferment.
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Re: First AG - Taking the plunge

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shadylane wrote:Not sure exactly why but
Barley, oats and any grain with a husk is prone to getting an infection.
I've read that mash temps are supposed to be high enough for pasteurization, but no-body told the bacteria :lol:
You'd think so given that I used boiling water with the feed grains. :)
Twisted Brick wrote:If I remember correctly, butyric acid can be caused by less than sanitary conditions coupled with low dissolved oxygen levels in the wash during the yeast respiration phase of fermentation. Hold tight and just double run as normal. It might take the second run to find out your product is just fine. Oh, and remember to aerate the piss outta your next large ferment.
I did sanitize, but clearly enough I fell short somewhere. Hence my comment above. Too long a process leaving too many opportunities for infection.

Was using my paint mixer for regular stirring which included forcing a lot of air into the mash, so I don't think aeration was the issue.

Once the activity settles down I do plan to run it and see what there is to see... Or smell as the case is.
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So the activity ended and the cap dropped after about a week. Gave it a couple days to settle. Got started again tonight.

Racking and squeezing commenced. Towels on the floor, nylon straining bag and a mop wringer.

Racked off about 5 gallons of clear darkish liquid. And then started to squeeze and squeeze the hell out of grain. Which yielded another 14ish gallons of chocolate milkshake looking liquid. There definitely wasn't much free liquid remaining in the pulp.

So just about 20 gallons total, out of about 32 gallons of water. Does that make sense?
rps20181128_223413.jpg
Now waiting for it to settle out a bit.
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Re: First AG - Taking the plunge

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Sounds kinda low. But It's been awhile since I did any squeezins.
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Re: First AG - Taking the plunge

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Expat wrote:So just about 20 gallons total, out of about 32 gallons of water. Does that make sense?
It would seem like there is still at least 12 gal or more in the mash.. if you press it right, you should recover all the water used in the mash, plus whatever was turned into sugar..

On my 5 gal of water mash, once pressed, I recover 1 extra litre of liquid..

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Re: First AG - Taking the plunge

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StillerBoy wrote:
Expat wrote:So just about 20 gallons total, out of about 32 gallons of water. Does that make sense?
It would seem like there is still at least 12 gal or more in the mash.. if you press it right, you should recover all the water used in the mash, plus whatever was turned into sugar..

On my 5 gal of water mash, once pressed, I recover 1 extra litre of liquid..

Mars
Not sure how I could have applied enough pressure to leave the grains completely dry... As was I squeezed them like hell.

12 gallons remaining in 82ish pounds of grain is roughly .14 gallons per pound. Can't have gone anywhere else
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Re: First AG - Taking the plunge

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You could always follow @Jimbo's Gumball recipe and add sugar & water back to the "spent" grain.
Makes more sense than throwing it out.
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Re: First AG - Taking the plunge

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Tdick - You're absolutely right, this is something I will give a try on a future run. As I did have a bute infection I decided to dispose of the spent grain rather than carry it forward.
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Re: First AG - Taking the plunge

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Expat wrote:Racking and squeezing commenced. Towels on the floor, nylon straining bag and a mop wringer.
I commented that there was lots of liquid still available was a fact, a mop wringer does the job, but it leaves lots of liquid behind.. I use an apple press to press with, and the recovery is superior to the mop wringer, having used both, and grains are hard to press, and the apple press does recover lots more..

On the other hand, the spend grains press with an apple press are done with, went used to make a shine from after, the grains input little flavour.. where as using a mop wringer, the grains input lots more flavour..

So it all depends on what you intent to do with spend grains after the whiskey run..

Looking at the picture of your press/spend grains, they are much courser than the milling size I do, and that makes it much harder to extract all the liquid from.. I mill quite fine, somewhere in the range of 50% flour and fine..

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