Grinding to flour for Bain Marie

Production methods from starch to sugars.

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Grinding to flour for Bain Marie

Postby amdamgraham » Thu Mar 14, 2019 1:22 pm

I bought the stone wheel components for my Corona (Cha-ching!-ouch) and I plan to grind my corn (10lbs) and oats (2lbs) into flour consistency to expose more of the starches for better gelatinization during the boil. I'll be pitching in a pound of Rye during cool down for added flavor. My concern is whether this flour-like mash is going to have any problems fermenting that would be different from my previous course-grind batches. Any thoughts on that? I don't want to stir in any oxygen while the yeast is anaerobic but I also want to make sure that all of the fermentable sugars get exposed to yeast. I cook my ingredients in a BOP, cool down in the same BOP, pitch the yeast to the same BOP and ferment in that BOP. When it's done, it all gets dumped into my Bain Marie since I have no scorching concerns. It's nice and simple.
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Re: Grinding to flour for Bain Marie

Postby BlackStrap » Thu Mar 14, 2019 2:18 pm

Very nice and simple, indeed!... As long as all your grains are exposed to the water (no dough balls, I believe it would be more difficult with a flour texture than a cracked grind...but that's just my opinion) if it all turns out, you should have an extremely strong in flavor (in a good way) great tasting spirit.

Makes me remember my second still she was a baine marie style, but failed to have an agitating device, it did "cook" the edges that where closest to the out side of the inner pot, but never scorched, to the point that it gave off an after bad after taste... It's sometime nice to reminisce about the old setups we use to have, :)... Good Luck and keep us updated amdamgraham. \_/ \_/ cheers
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Re: Grinding to flour for Bain Marie

Postby Twisted Brick » Thu Mar 14, 2019 7:45 pm

When I first moved up to AG, my corn came ground (meal) from the feed store so I ground my rye and 2-row in a spice grinder seeking maximum attenuation and fermentability. After the ground corn was discontinued, I bought a Corona and now grind (standard metal plates) all my grains except for barley which I use my trusty (from the 80's) JSP malt mill.

I have noticed no decrease in brewhouse efficiency by switching to the Corona. It will be interesting to see your results with the bain marie.
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Re: Grinding to flour for Bain Marie

Postby amdamgraham » Wed Mar 20, 2019 7:44 pm

OK, here we go here is the flour-grind result, as promised: 10lbs painted mountain corn (an heirloom variety), 1lb oats, 1lb red wheat and 1lb rye. All of the grains were ground to a flour-like consistency. The rye was set aside for later. 6.5 gallons of water in a BOP over propane burner. I started the heat and after seeing little bubbles in the bottom added all the grains except rye then used a cement mixer blender attachment on my hand drill to work it into solution. No clumping at all. From here out I pretty much use a wooden hand-paddle to keep stirring. At around 150F I added 1 tsp Seb HTL Alpha to thin it out. Continued heating up to 195-200 and kept it there for a full hour. I let it cool to 180F and added another 1tsp Seb HTL Alpha. I allowed it to cool (naturally) to 150 and added the 1lb Rye which dropped the temp to about 147F then waiting until 140F to add 2tsp SebFloTL. I then waited for the temp to get down to 122 and took a pH measurement and was hitting 6.1. Sebamyl for saccarification likes pH of 5.5 so I added 1tsp gypsum but that only came down to 5.9 or 6.0 so I dissolved 1tsp of citric acid into some water and stirred it in. That got me to pH 5.6 - good enough. 1 tsp SebAmyl added and stirred in. Everything wrapped up and allowed to sit over night. Next morning O.G. of 1.060 at 100F. That is the best O.G. I've had with straight grain. In the past I got a 1.080 with store bought cornmeal so I am guessing that since my batch here is heirloom and contains all of the shell matter etc that it's not as starch-dense as store-bought or sweet corn. Anyway, I waited until 100F then pitched 1/3 cup of pre-soaked (in H2O only) Red Star DADY and am keeping it around 90F. I am happy with result. One thing I did not do was hold temperatures for any enzyme rests. The cool-down was happening slow enough since I was not using a wort chiller so I didn't think it necessary. Please critique if you have any wise words. These actions above were all the culmination of reading multiple postings and critiques from this site so if it could be even better, I'm all ears.. the human kind.
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Re: Grinding to flour for Bain Marie

Postby DuckofDeath » Thu Mar 21, 2019 6:25 am

If you are using Rye with enzymes you should be also adding glucoamylase. It will break down if you are using a malt, but straight enzymes you need to break down the Glucans.

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Re: Grinding to flour for Bain Marie

Postby StillerBoy » Thu Mar 21, 2019 6:47 am

You're well on the mark, and I grind to almost a flour level, maybe 40 flour/60 very fine.. the small amount of rye and wheat used will not necessitate the use of SEBflo TL enzyme, which is use to liquify the glue like effect of those grains, but in usage of higher amount, it is of great assistance..

As to waiting for the temp to come down to 150*F, I add them at around the 160 - 165* range.. the thought behind is that while I'm using liquid enzymes, I don't really need to wait for the enzyme temp of those grains.. and I had not notice any flavour difference doing it that way..

The Ph level required for those enzyme usage is, in my experience, is very important.. for the HTL, I shoot for a Ph of 4.8, for GL, I shoot for a Ph of 4.5 and temp of 140*, and for TL, shoot for a Ph of 4.5 and temp of 130*.. on the HTL and GL, the Ph will more up some, but the Ph on the TL will remain stable..

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Re: Grinding to flour for Bain Marie

Postby MichiganCornhusker » Thu Mar 21, 2019 8:07 am

amdamgraham wrote:My concern is whether this flour-like mash is going to have any problems fermenting that would be different from my previous course-grind batches. Any thoughts on that?

I don't see any problems with the fermentation, even it the flour makes the liquid thicker or pasty. I've fermented some very thick mashes and the yeast just tend to do their thing.

I would say that the flour could affect the flavor of the final spirit though.
You are ultimately distilling on the grain, and I believe this will come through in the whiskey.
I haven't used a bain maire, but I have distilled on the grain with steam, and I definitely found a difference between that and the same mash distilled with the grains strained out prior to filling the boiler.
Flavor-wise, I can't say which is better, I think that if mostly a personal preference, but quite different.

This does remind me of a thread years ago about Jimbo using store bought bags of flour. I think I remember him saying that batch tasted like tortillas for quite a while.
Then again, that was processed flour, not ground grains like you're doing.
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Re: Grinding to flour for Bain Marie

Postby amdamgraham » Thu Mar 21, 2019 12:06 pm

StillerBoy wrote: ... the small amount of rye and wheat used will not necessitate the use of SEBflo TL enzyme, which is use to liquify the glue like effect of those grains, but in usage of higher amount, it is of great assistance..
Mars


So does the SebFlo TL not aid in the breakdown and fermentation of the rye and wheat? Is it only a liquifier in the sense that it keeps it from becoming glue?
I have a load of it due to a past all-rye batch I made so I just figured I might as well use it.
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Re: Grinding to flour for Bain Marie

Postby StillerBoy » Thu Mar 21, 2019 1:07 pm

amdamgraham wrote:Is it only a liquifier in the sense that it keeps it from becoming glue?

Yah.. the main problem, I've found, was after fermentation is done.. using TL,the mash is all liquid with all the grain setting out to the bottom.. without it, the grains tend to stay in suspension, and make the mash thick.. just the mashing process, you will little difference, it's mostly after the fermentation is done..

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