Liquid corn extract?

Production methods from starch to sugars.

Moderator: Site Moderator

Post Reply
User avatar
OMEGA
Novice
Posts: 66
Joined: Wed Feb 04, 2015 5:02 pm

Liquid corn extract?

Post by OMEGA » Mon Feb 23, 2015 10:51 am

While mashing corn and struggling with the associated difficulties of corn, ie cooking gelatinization, starch conversion, inability to lauter, fermenting on the grain, wringing beer from said grain, etc... I couldn't help but to think about a corn product equivalent to the liquid malt extract that is used for making beer. It allows one to skip the mashing stage and dump goodies right into a boiler. It's more expensive, yet more time and ingredient efficient. What does everyone think about the possibility of an equivalent corn product? If it existed, Would you use it? I know I would, and do a separate partial mash of barley/wheat/rye for flavor and ferment that way. It would be much cleaner, quicker,
And would yield consistent results every time, giving one the ability to dial in recipes. No longer would we have to search for preservative free feed corn, mill it, cook it for hours,
Cool it, convert it, convert some more, then wring the grains out just to get some corn flavored sugary liquid.

Feedback on this concept? I've tried to find something like it, but haven't found a thing. Corn syrup does NOT suffice lol.
Last edited by OMEGA on Mon Feb 23, 2015 11:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
_OMEGA_

User avatar
OMEGA
Novice
Posts: 66
Joined: Wed Feb 04, 2015 5:02 pm

Re: Liquid corn extract?

Post by OMEGA » Mon Feb 23, 2015 11:29 am

What is really most important about this idea is the corn FLAVOR that will be transferred into the final product. If it was just about the sugar, one could easily use dextrose and add some corn for flavor. The goal with this product is to attain equal or close corn flavor as an all grain recipe would. This way, bourbon and corn whiskey recipes will have the ease of a ujssm, with the flavor of an all grain mash. I would love a product like that. Straight corn flavor, in a thick liquid syrup concentrate, fully converted sugars, to which either barley and rye can be added, liquid malt extract,
Or a partial mash of barley and rye or wheat can be done separately and added into the kettle/fermenter.

Suggestions? Ideas? I think a full flavored product like this could revolutionize the process of home distilling whiskey.
_OMEGA_

carbohydratesn
Swill Maker
Posts: 398
Joined: Tue Jan 20, 2015 6:37 am

Re: Liquid corn extract?

Post by carbohydratesn » Mon Feb 23, 2015 12:34 pm

What is really most important about this idea is the corn FLAVOR that will be transferred into the final product.
Does backset count?
...brewers use a process called mashing to extract the sugars. Brewers warm cracked malt in temperature-modulated water, activating the enzymes, which cleave more of the malt's remaining starch into various sugars, the largest percentage of which is maltose. Modern beer mashing practices typically include high enough temperatures at mash-out to deactivate remaining enzymes, thus it is no longer diastatic. The liquid produced from this, wort, is then concentrated by using heat or a vacuum procedure to evaporate water from the mixture. The concentrated wort is called malt extract.
Malt extract is just a mash that's been concentrated. Making it still requires the full mashing process...you don't have to do the mashing, but someone else still does. It'd be possible to produce a corn mash extract like that, but it would take a big operation.

User avatar
dstaines
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 448
Joined: Thu Aug 08, 2013 7:46 am
Location: The Left Coast

Re: Liquid corn extract?

Post by dstaines » Mon Feb 23, 2015 3:25 pm

OMEGA wrote: Corn syrup does NOT suffice lol.
Ironically, what you're talking about IS corn syrup. Malt extract is sometimes called malt syrup for the same reason. Check out the "Commercial Preparation" section of the Wikipedia page for corn syrup - milled corn starch is hydrated and converted to maltose and glucose by the addition of cultured alpha and glucoamylase, then concentrated. Sound familiar?

The stuff of the grocery store shelf is also processed and highly filtered I'm sure, reducing the suspended solids until there is not a lot of corn flavor left. but as long as it doesn't say "HIgh-fructose" or "Composition" corn syrup it's otherwise made essentially the same way. If there was a commercially available corn syrup for homebrewers that retained more of the grain solids like malt syrup, you bet I would use it. Since there isn't, I have used the Dark corn syrup before. 4.5 gallons of water, dark syrup up to 1080 OG, nutrients, a little acid, yeast. Ran it twice, drank it all, moved on to fruit brandy and malt syrup whiskies because I thought I would find them more interesting. But that corn syrup white dog was some of the better stuff I've made, and at the time was a welcome feather in the cap for a total beginner.
I buy all my liquor at the hardware store.

User avatar
OMEGA
Novice
Posts: 66
Joined: Wed Feb 04, 2015 5:02 pm

Re: Liquid corn extract?

Post by OMEGA » Wed Feb 25, 2015 9:36 am

carbohydratesn wrote:

Does backset count?
I understand backset transfers flavor, but you can't buy it off the shelf. The point would be to make a
Great tasting product you can pour right into the boiler/fermenter with no mash involved.

I've done 100s of mashes for brewing , only to get into distilling recently. I understand it would require a large commercial scaled setup to make a product like this, but imagine the simplicity and quality of product that could be produced from it.
carbohydratesn wrote:

Malt extract is just a mash that's been concentrated. Making it still requires the full mashing process...you don't have to do the mashing, but someone else still does. It'd be possible to produce a corn mash extract like that, but it would take a big operation.
_OMEGA_

User avatar
dstaines
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 448
Joined: Thu Aug 08, 2013 7:46 am
Location: The Left Coast

Re: Liquid corn extract?

Post by dstaines » Wed Feb 25, 2015 9:58 am

I actually found something off the shelf that yields perfect corn whiskey every time, with almost no work! Saw it at Bevmo

http://www.bevmo.com/Shop/ProductDetail ... hiskey/727" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

Lol just ribbing you Omega
I buy all my liquor at the hardware store.

User avatar
OMEGA
Novice
Posts: 66
Joined: Wed Feb 04, 2015 5:02 pm

Re: Liquid corn extract?

Post by OMEGA » Thu Feb 26, 2015 11:19 pm

dstaines wrote:I actually found something off the shelf that yields perfect corn whiskey every time, with almost no work! Saw it at Bevmo

http://www.bevmo.com/Shop/ProductDetail ... hiskey/727" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

Lol just ribbing you Omega
I saw your post and sold all my mashing gear then realized you were just fcking with me
_OMEGA_

BigJames
Novice
Posts: 25
Joined: Tue Oct 20, 2020 3:34 pm
Location: NC,USA

Re: Liquid corn extract?

Post by BigJames » Wed Apr 07, 2021 1:33 pm

What if you used corn syrup and sweet corn extract flavoring in the mash? Would that work?

User avatar
8Ball
Trainee
Posts: 805
Joined: Tue Nov 27, 2018 9:12 am

Re: Liquid corn extract?

Post by 8Ball » Wed Apr 07, 2021 1:47 pm

I guess I’m old school in that I like making spirits by traditional means. I enjoy the process of obtaining whole grains, malting, smoking, grinding, mashing, squeezing, fermenting, running, aging, bottling, and consuming my homemade spirits. I probably would use LME and any corn based equivalent if the need/opportunity arose, but it would not be my first choice.
🎱 The struggle is real and this rabbit hole just got interesting.

User avatar
still_stirrin
Master Distiller
Posts: 8500
Joined: Tue Mar 18, 2014 7:01 am
Location: where the buffalo roam, and the deer & antelope play

Re: Liquid corn extract?

Post by still_stirrin » Wed Apr 07, 2021 3:33 pm

8Ball wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 1:47 pm
I guess I’m old school in that I like making spirits by traditional means. I enjoy the process of obtaining whole grains, malting, smoking, grinding, mashing, squeezing, fermenting, running, aging, bottling, and consuming my homemade spirits.

I probably would use LME and any corn based equivalent if the need/opportunity arose, but it would not be my first choice.
BigJames wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 1:33 pm
What if you used corn syrup and sweet corn extract flavoring in the mash? Would that work?
+1 to 8ball

James, by the time you buy corn syrup and extract flavorings, you’ll be “invested”. But the product won’t be on par with the investment. Sure, you’ll take “the easy road” in terms of process. But again, I believe you’ll be disappointed in your product. Even simple sugar washes will work....but they don’t compare to an all grain mash made with traditional methods.

Do it, if you want...and can afford it. But, you’ll be leaving the quality for the rest of us who aren’t afraid “to work” the corn mash with grain.
ss
Attention new distillers: Cranky's spoon feed info
My LM/VM & Potstill: My build thread
My Cadco hotplate modification thread: Hotplate Build
My stock pot gin still: stock pot potstill
My 5-grain Bourbon recipe: Special K

User avatar
Durhommer
Distiller
Posts: 2396
Joined: Tue Mar 12, 2019 11:23 am

Re: Liquid corn extract?

Post by Durhommer » Wed Apr 07, 2021 3:54 pm

I just did an all wheat lme spirit run and the product smells great at 145 proof with a slight burn because of the proof when I watered a sample down to 80 it was smooth and aromatic
You have two ears and one mouth for a reason....

Timothy_W
Novice
Posts: 13
Joined: Mon Apr 05, 2021 5:54 am

Re: Liquid corn extract?

Post by Timothy_W » Thu Apr 08, 2021 4:39 am

still_stirrin wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 3:33 pm
8Ball wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 1:47 pm
I guess I’m old school in that I like making spirits by traditional means. I enjoy the process of obtaining whole grains, malting, smoking, grinding, mashing, squeezing, fermenting, running, aging, bottling, and consuming my homemade spirits.

I probably would use LME and any corn based equivalent if the need/opportunity arose, but it would not be my first choice.
BigJames wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 1:33 pm
What if you used corn syrup and sweet corn extract flavoring in the mash? Would that work?
+1 to 8ball

James, by the time you buy corn syrup and extract flavorings, you’ll be “invested”. But the product won’t be on par with the investment. Sure, you’ll take “the easy road” in terms of process. But again, I believe you’ll be disappointed in your product. Even simple sugar washes will work....but they don’t compare to an all grain mash made with traditional methods.

Do it, if you want...and can afford it. But, you’ll be leaving the quality for the rest of us who aren’t afraid “to work” the corn mash with grain.
ss
The road to rich taste is not easy, I agree. Of course, you can take the easy path and buy ready-made syrups, but who knows what is added to these syrups.

User avatar
Deplorable
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 1486
Joined: Thu Jun 25, 2020 12:10 pm
Location: PNW

Re: Liquid corn extract?

Post by Deplorable » Thu Apr 08, 2021 7:26 am

Since corn syrup is made the same way LME is made, I'm sure if the demand was there for "LCE" it would be a simple process deviation for the producers to pull some extract prior to filtering and refinement. However, there is little demand if any for unrefined corn extract that can't be filled with molasses. Like stock feed. Sure, if you could purchase unrefined liquid corn extract as cheap as moly, or LME I bet a lot of folks would give it a try. Especially if you could get the extract of specialty corns at a reasonable price. It would definitely reduce the amount of spent grain in your compost pile.
Use all your senses, and its not that hard. You just have to pay attention.

Post Reply