All grain, low SG.

Production methods from starch to sugars.

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All grain, low SG.

Post by Hannibbl »

99 lbs mash bill. 40 gallons water
Milled cracked feed corn - 65lbs
Milled Malted wheat - 18lbs
Milled Malted Pilsner barley - 16lbs
Ferment on the grain
Boiler took about 45 min to boil.
Stirred after every water addition and when barley/wheat were added.

Used easy Large batch mashing protocol but added all the corn in the first water dump. 15ish gallons of water at raging boil.
Corn was gelling after second water addition.
After all water was added was sitting at 180f. Covered everything up.
Added wheat and barley and sebstar at 165f.
Let sit overnight. Added sebgluco at 130f.

SG 1.04ish.

I figured with this much grain, almost 2.5/gallon my SG would be much higher than this.
Maybe next time use much less water?
Any hints for the next mash?

Going to strip run this batch if I can, then use the yeast cake and the bottom gallon or so for a sour mash batch and redo this recipe but size scaled down.
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Re: All grain, low SG.

Post by still_stirrin »

Iodine check?

Obviously, much of your (corn) starch was not converted in the limited mash time. Temperature maintenance in the saccharification step is important for the duration of conversion. You did your “grain-in” mash by the clock, not by the conversion. So, initial SG’s will always be below expectations. However, because you’ve added active liquid enzymes to the fermenter, some of the remaining starch will be converted as time goes on. Will it be complete … probably not. But it will get more of the starch converted and available for the yeast.

When you do “lazy” mash processes, you can expect less than optimum results. But, you’ll get what you get. Improve processes and you’ll improve the extract efficiency.
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Re: All grain, low SG.

Post by Hannibbl »

still_stirrin wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 8:18 am Iodine check?

Obviously, much of your (corn) starch was not converted in the limited mash time. Temperature maintenance in the saccharification step is important for the duration of conversion. You did your “grain-in” mash by the clock, not by the conversion. So, initial SG’s will always be below expectations. However, because you’ve added active liquid enzymes to the fermenter, some of the remaining starch will be converted as time goes on. Will it be complete … probably not. But it will get more of the starch converted and available for the yeast.

When you do “lazy” mash processes, you can expect less than optimum results. But, you’ll get what you get. Improve processes and you’ll improve the extract efficiency.
ss
I don’t have the ability to mash the “correct” way. I’m hoping you are right and I will get more starch converted while it comes down to pitch temp. Hopefully that will be sometime tonight. Might have gotten a little excited with the starter last night. Could have waited until today.
I took a cylinder of mash and brought it down to 60f to measure it. I got 1.04 SG. So it possibly could be a touch higher once it cools?
Still around 130 right now. That much liquid holds its temp. I took all the insulation off this morning.
Obviously I would hold it at cooking temp if I could but just not a possibility with my equipment.

Edit: I also did a mash calculator and it ended up with about what I have. Had to use bobs red mill milled corn, generic red wheat and floor dried barley.
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Re: All grain, low SG.

Post by greggn »

Hannibbl wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 8:09 am
Milled cracked feed corn - 65lbs
Milled Malted wheat - 18lbs
Milled Malted Pilsner barley - 16lbs

Who is doing the milling ... you or a HBS ? How fine are those grains being milled ? There are other factors in play, of course, but milling down to a flour will improve extraction.
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Re: All grain, low SG.

Post by Hannibbl »

greggn wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 8:32 am
Hannibbl wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 8:09 am
Milled cracked feed corn - 65lbs
Milled Malted wheat - 18lbs
Milled Malted Pilsner barley - 16lbs

Who is doing the milling ... you or a HBS ? How fine are those grains being milled ? There are other factors in play, of course, but milling down to a flour will improve extraction.
I hand milled barley and corn, hand cranked about 1/2 of it and used a drill as much as I could. Battery’s didn’t last long. Corded was not strong enough.

I would say a course grind. Basically a touch more course than course cornmeal.

This sat overnight at 165+. Guess I’m not sure how much longer a guy would need to “cook” to extract the starches. This is what I am not understanding I guess.
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Re: All grain, low SG.

Post by bilgriss »

The bulk of this by weight was water and corn. I suspect that adding the malt at 165 did not drop the temperature sufficiently and you denatured most of those enzymes pretty fast. A general rule of thumb is to add at 150 or a little less, depending upon the mash makeup.

The addition of liquid enzymes at proper temperatures would theoretically make up for this, but indeed, it greatly depends upon own well your starches were gelatinized in the corn as to potential. You should continue to get some conversion and if there are enough enzymes, that will continue during fermentation. But each of the steps is important to maximize your efficiency and reach the potential of the grain.
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Re: All grain, low SG.

Post by Hannibbl »

bilgriss wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 9:03 am The bulk of this by weight was water and corn. I suspect that adding the malt at 165 did not drop the temperature sufficiently and you denatured most of those enzymes pretty fast. A general rule of thumb is to add at 150 or a little less, depending upon the mash makeup.

The addition of liquid enzymes at proper temperatures would theoretically make up for this, but indeed, it greatly depends upon own well your starches were gelatinized in the corn as to potential. You should continue to get some conversion and if there are enough enzymes, that will continue during fermentation. But each of the steps is important to maximize your efficiency and reach the potential of the grain.

I dropped the grains at 163f. I don’t think I would have had to worry about denaturing the enzymes in the wheat or barley at that temp. I stirred the mash before the addition to get a decent temperature reading. Stirred everything up in case it was colder at the bottom.
Stirred a lot. Mortar paddle on a drill until any clumps we’re gone. Got a fan on it now to drop to pitch temp. Currently 132f.
Added Sebstar enzymes before the other grains were added.
Anded sebgluco when temp was under 150f.
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Re: All grain, low SG.

Post by still_stirrin »

Hannibbl wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 9:32 am… I dropped the grains at 163f. I don’t think I would have had to worry about denaturing the enzymes in the wheat or barley at that temp…
You’re WRONG. The enzymes that convert the starch to sugars denatures @ 165*F +/- 3*F. Optimum temperature is 145*F to 155*F, with 150*F as a good “target”.
Hannibbl wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 9:32 am… I stirred the mash before the addition to get a decent temperature reading. Stirred everything up in case it was colder at the bottom.

Stirred a lot. Mortar paddle on a drill until any clumps we’re gone…
Stirring will help. But, it would be better to stir continuously during the conversion process, especially for this large of a mash. You don’t need to stir vigorously, just a steady swirl to keep the liquid agitating around the grist. This will help accelerate conversion.
Hannibbl wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 9:32 am… Got a fan on it now to drop to pitch temp. Currently 132f.
Added Sebstar enzymes before the other grains were added.
Anded sebgluco when temp was under 150f.
OK. The gluco-amylase enzymes will help starch to sugar conversion, even in the fermenter. But, as the temperature is at yeast activity temperatures, the enzymes slow. So it takes a LOT longer for the grains to continue to convert.

My advice: buy or build a wort chiller, a coil of copper that you can run cold water through and immerse into the mash tun. Dropping the temperature rapidly (after conversion) will help to reduce the opportunity for bacteria to overtake the mash before the yeast start to produce alcohol (which actually acts as an antiseptic). Yeast —> good … bacteria —> bad.

So, pitch the yeast as soon as possible. And be sure to rehydrate dry yeast properly before pitching.
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Re: All grain, low SG.

Post by Hannibbl »

:ewink:
still_stirrin wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 10:47 am
Hannibbl wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 9:32 am… I dropped the grains at 163f. I don’t think I would have had to worry about denaturing the enzymes in the wheat or barley at that temp…
You’re WRONG. The enzymes that convert the starch to sugars denatures @ 165*F +/- 3*F. Optimum temperature is 145*F to 155*F, with 150*F as a good “target”.
Hannibbl wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 9:32 am… I stirred the mash before the addition to get a decent temperature reading. Stirred everything up in case it was colder at the bottom.

Stirred a lot. Mortar paddle on a drill until any clumps we’re gone…
Stirring will help. But, it would be better to stir continuously during the conversion process, especially for this large of a mash. You don’t need to stir vigorously, just a steady swirl to keep the liquid agitating around the grist. This will help accelerate conversion.
Hannibbl wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 9:32 am… Got a fan on it now to drop to pitch temp. Currently 132f.
Added Sebstar enzymes before the other grains were added.
Anded sebgluco when temp was under 150f.
OK. The gluco-amylase enzymes will help starch to sugar conversion, even in the fermenter. But, as the temperature is at yeast activity temperatures, the enzymes slow. So it takes a LOT longer for the grains to continue to convert.

My advice: buy or build a wort chiller, a coil of copper that you can run cold water through and immerse into the mash tun. Dropping the temperature rapidly (after conversion) will help to reduce the opportunity for bacteria to overtake the mash before the yeast start to produce alcohol (which actually acts as an antiseptic). Yeast —> good … bacteria —> bad.

So, pitch the yeast as soon as possible. And be sure to rehydrate dry yeast properly before pitching.
ss
This is where I got the info from. viewtopic.php?f=3&t=16799
Starter is going strong. Will pitch when I get to temp. Wort chiller is an easy fix. I just started the yeast starter too soon. Bad planning.

I might be safe, although close to the high end. I’m guessing the temp would have dropped enough once I added the grains. If I was at 163 as I measured. The temp more than likely dropped a few degrees upon the addition. Temp was measured right before I added the malt grains.
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Re: All grain, low SG.

Post by Twisted Brick »

Hannibbl wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 12:26 pm
This is where I got the info from. viewtopic.php?f=3&t=16799
Starter is going strong. Will pitch when I get to temp. Wort chiller is an easy fix. I just started the yeast starter too soon. Bad planning.

I might be safe, although close to the high end. I’m guessing the temp would have dropped enough once I added the grains. If I was at 163 as I measured. The temp more than likely dropped a few degrees upon the addition. Temp was measured right before I added the malt grains.
Well, there are two improvements you can explore. First off, that chart has had holes shot in it as the numbers are skewed and inaccurate. Some more reading on your part will reveal the criticisms of the chart's inaccuracies by experienced members.

Secondly, at the temps you mashed in with, even though you may have avoided denaturing your enzymes, it's likely you succeeded at producing a more dextrinous wort, and less fermentable sugar. By following what the beer guys do to create mouthfeel and body (which doesn't apply to distilling) you sacrificed potential alcohol and optimal yield.
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Re: All grain, low SG.

Post by Hannibbl »

Twisted Brick wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 1:12 pm
Hannibbl wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 12:26 pm
This is where I got the info from. viewtopic.php?f=3&t=16799
Starter is going strong. Will pitch when I get to temp. Wort chiller is an easy fix. I just started the yeast starter too soon. Bad planning.

I might be safe, although close to the high end. I’m guessing the temp would have dropped enough once I added the grains. If I was at 163 as I measured. The temp more than likely dropped a few degrees upon the addition. Temp was measured right before I added the malt grains.
Well, there are two improvements you can explore. First off, that chart has had holes shot in it as the numbers are skewed and inaccurate. Some more reading on your part will reveal the criticisms of the chart's inaccuracies by experienced members.

Secondly, at the temps you mashed in with, even though you may have avoided denaturing your enzymes, it's likely you succeeded at producing a more dextrinous wort, and less fermentable sugar. By following what the beer guys do to create mouthfeel and body (which doesn't apply to distilling) you sacrificed potential alcohol and optimal yield.
So possibly unsticky that thread? Would that be a mod issue?
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Re: All grain, low SG.

Post by Twisted Brick »

IMO it's largely correct and there is enough perceived value in the chart for newer folks to just leave it. There are other inaccurate items here on the Forum but only so many hands and so many hours to tend to what is 'fixable'. Over the years this hobby has rapidly evolved as more and more members with a diversity of backgrounds increase the level of understanding, replacing handed-down traditions with anecdotal data. The internet and other (commercial) global distiller forums haven't hurt either. The reality is that if one spends enough time reading through the 'archives' here (and there), the nuggets of info eventually fall into place and mirror the hands-on learning we get if we're so inclined.
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Re: All grain, low SG.

Post by Hannibbl »

Twisted Brick wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 4:21 pm IMO it's largely correct and there is enough perceived value in the chart for newer folks to just leave it. There are other inaccurate items here on the Forum but only so many hands and so many hours to tend to what is 'fixable'. Over the years this hobby has rapidly evolved as more and more members with a diversity of backgrounds increase the level of understanding, replacing handed-down traditions with anecdotal data. The internet and other (commercial) global distiller forums haven't hurt either. The reality is that if one spends enough time reading through the 'archives' here (and there), the nuggets of info eventually fall into place and mirror the hands-on learning we get if we're so inclined.
I understand. I guess my point is if you want it as a sticky add a admin note at the bottom of the original post of it isn’t correct.

Anyways. Dropped the starter in less than 10 min ago and it’s already forming a cap. Going off like a banshee.
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Re: All grain, low SG.

Post by shadylane »

The "SG 1.04ish." is half the story.
The final gravity will be the other. :ewink:

Before I forget, here's the article the chart came from.
http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?ti ... Conversion

Here's some more info
http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php/Ef ... on_mashing
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Re: All grain, low SG.

Post by Hannibbl »

:twisted:
shadylane wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 5:42 pm The "SG 1.04ish." is half the story.
The final gravity will be the other. :ewink:

Before I forget, here's the article the chart came from.
http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?ti ... Conversion

Here's some more info
http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php/Ef ... on_mashing
“Thinner mashes enhance the maltose production and therefore increase the fermentability.“

So theoretically, having a thinner mash, I.e. more water, could help me in the long run, barring the fact that I may have denatured the enzymes.

Side note, this ferment is going nuts. Literal breaking bubbles on the cap. It’s making its own wake. 3 packets of Nottingham and 1/4 cup of red star bakers.

Side side note: the heat off of this barrel has my garage at 80f. My 20 gallons of rum that’s fermenting has a huge boner right now.
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Re: All grain, low SG.

Post by Hannibbl »

Looks like it’s done. Got a wicked lacto growing. Tastes like sour beer. Finished under .990. Not sure how much under as that’s as far as my hydro measures. Going squeeze here out in the next few days here and see how she distills out. Hoping I had a little more starch conversion during the ferment.
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Re: All grain, low SG.

Post by Hannibbl »

In the still now. First drops at 183*F vapor path measurement. 198*F in the boiler. So it needed up with a higher ABV than anticipated.
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Re: All grain, low SG.

Post by Hannibbl »

shadylane wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 5:42 pm The "SG 1.04ish." is half the story.
The final gravity will be the other. :ewink:
This definitely happened.
Had production coming out the still way earlier than expected if it would have been 1.04. 4-5% potential.

I had the same issue with my next mash in with same recipe. Low SG. Hoping all goes well with this one. I did wait until the temp was 149 after a good stir to add my malts to eliminate the issue I may have had adding them too early last time. Ended up with the same SG. A hair above 1.04.
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Re: All grain, low SG.

Post by shadylane »

Hannibbl wrote: Tue May 31, 2022 8:23 am Looks like it’s done. Got a wicked lacto growing. Tastes like sour beer. Finished under .990. Not sure how much under as that’s as far as my hydro measures.
Sound like the hydrometer is reading low.
Test it in some water.
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Re: All grain, low SG.

Post by squigglefunk »

Hannibbl wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 8:40 am This sat overnight at 165+. Guess I’m not sure how much longer a guy would need to “cook” to extract the starches. This is what I am not understanding I guess.
I personally think the "lazy method" does not work all that well. I get much better results with actually cooking the corn.
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Re: All grain, low SG.

Post by Hannibbl »

squigglefunk wrote: Tue Jun 21, 2022 5:20 am
Hannibbl wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 8:40 am This sat overnight at 165+. Guess I’m not sure how much longer a guy would need to “cook” to extract the starches. This is what I am not understanding I guess.
I personally think the "lazy method" does not work all that well. I get much better results with actually cooking the corn.
I get gelling on the first dump, And more but less noticeable on the second dump. Sits about 180-185 for over an hour.
I would cook it but don’t have the ability with the equipment I have.
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Re: All grain, low SG.

Post by ShineonCrazyDiamond »

If your dumping boiling (not hot) water on the corn, you have to let it sit for hours, not an hour. It's called the easy corn method, not the impatient corn method.
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Re: All grain, low SG.

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ShineonCrazyDiamond wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 1:33 pm If your dumping boiling (not hot) water on the corn, you have to let it sit for hours, not an hour. It's called the easy corn method, not the impatient corn method.
Agree. This method works fine. Add boiling water. Insulate the pot and go to bed. Carry on after breakfast the next day. Works every time for me.
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Re: All grain, low SG.

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ShineonCrazyDiamond wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 1:33 pm If your dumping boiling (not hot) water on the corn, you have to let it sit for hours, not an hour. It's called the easy corn method, not the impatient corn method.
It stays above 180 for over an hour and cools on its own. Barrel is in a cardboard box with 2- -10*F sleeping bags wrapper around it bubble wrap underneath to keep it off the concrete. Reflectix cover under the closed box and 2 camping blankets over the box. Not sure if I could insulate it any better.

When I said it’s above 180 for an hour. It’s that high or higher when the box gets closed up and left. It’s still about 160 the next day when I check to add malts. This time it was 165 about 12 hours later when I dropped a frozen 5gallon bucket of backset in to drop temp for malts.
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Re: All grain, low SG.

Post by ShineonCrazyDiamond »

Well, you made other grave mistakes like adding all corn on first dump, and over temp-ed your enzymes. You'll do better the next round :thumbup:
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Re: All grain, low SG.

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ShineonCrazyDiamond wrote: Fri Jun 24, 2022 8:28 am Well, you made other grave mistakes like adding all corn on first dump, and over temp-ed your enzymes. You'll do better the next round :thumbup:
Next batch turned out great. Still dumped all corn first.
No infection this time. I think adding 8ish gallons of backset may have helped with this. (Butyric infection last time).
Fermented out in about 6 days. Cap dropped the night of the 4th day. Not sure if this has any cause and effect of anything I did differently, but there was a ton of liquid on top. Compared to last time before I strained/squeezed it, there were a ton of solids in suspension. There was almost a foot of liquid at the top of the 55 gal drum this time compared to an inch or 2 last time. Not a big deal as a squeeze it out with mop wringer anyways but it was kinda nice and went a lot faster.
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