Parallels between all-grain beer brewing

[Barney Fife]

A great place to find mills is ebay, or even local listings; I placed a want ad for one, and got many hits; ended up with an almost new carona mill for $40. There are a lot of former beer maker who have since retired..... The food processor will get you there, though, but once you decide to do more of these mashes(not "if"; you'll like the results, I believe), you'll want a mill. I need to electrify mine soon; I don't quite appreciate the workout that cranking the sucker gives me!

[Hack]

I've used a food processor before too. Yes you get some fines in the mash, but if you let it settle for a few days, after you strain out the grains if fermenting on the grain, you can siphon the clear stuff off the top.

[eternalfrost]

a question for you more experienced mashers...

if fermenting on the grain, should you rinse them off after you drain them? seems like a good chunk of goods could be soaked up and wasted in the soggy left overs. im thinking of a quick pseudo-sparge to rinse them off?

also how do you guys go about draining off the grains after fermentation? just a filtered tap in the bottom or some type of more elaborate false bottom or manifold or just dumping the whole thing through a grain bag, something else?

[blind drunk]

I'm not that experienced but this is what I do -
1) when the ferment slows right down and the cap's fallen and it's starting to clear
2) I rack of the liquid into carboys and then run the trub through a series of strainers until the trub is fairly dry
3) this racking usually reinvigorates the ferment and settling of the finer stuff begins
4) rack again when the bubbling stops
5) now I just leave it until it truly clears
6) rack into the boiler ...

I keep this really fine trub/yeast and just pour it into clean jugs and lightly cap them. This last step usually gets me another 1.5 - 2 gallons of clear beer that I add to whatever else I held back for the spirit run. BD.

[Barney Fife]

I boil and ferment with the grains in a bag; google "boil in the bag brewing". My "bag" is actually mosquito netting designed to go over a child's stroller; it comes with a handy chord to tie off and everything. When done, I pull out the bag, tie it off with a sky hooks, and let it drain on its own; gravity does most of, and a good wringing gets the rest. I tried pressing afterward, once, and got so little(a few cups, maybe) that I haven't bothered with that, since.

[eternalfrost]

so i just finsished striping my first all grain test batch. im very impressed! have to admit i hit a handful of stumbling blocks in the logistics of filtering the grain from the fermenter and getting it into the boiler but the product itself was really great.

about 10 lbs grain total (corn plus malted barley) produced very nearly the same final stripped product as an all sugar vodka. the all grain had about twice the initial volume of wash however, but it still all fits in the boiler in one run. my 5 gal sugar wash makes about 9L of stripped product from 10 lbs of white sugar. the grain made about 8L of stripped product from 10 lbs of grain. both stripped down to 10%

so all in all it only took about an hour and a half extra prep work to steam mash the grain. im sure many advances could be made as this was a pretty hodgepodge job with lots of room for improvement. so for a tad bit of more work you can get true whiskeys for cheaper ingredients.

[Dnderhead]

Glad to hear as most know I do grain, tried sugar a few times and went back to grain. I use a pot still and try to hit 65% .then it goes in
a barrel a number of years. it does vary depending on what grain I can git. this year "single malt" I hit the jack pot.

[eternalfrost]

well from the little experience i have so far with it, it seems like all grain is to sugar washes as sugar washes are to turbo washes.

less final wash ABV means cleaner and faster ferments.
the taste seems quite improved so far compared to ujsm.
total cost is about half too for cracked corn vs white sugar for me, adjusted for final product volume.
plus...no more funny looks buying 50 lbs of white sugar at the grocers

im excited, i just ordered a few new things that should make the logistics of filtering and charging go smoother. i think i can get it down to being just about as much time and work as i was doing before with sugar based washes. dont want to put the cart in front of the horse and all but i may not be doing many more sugar washes

[eternalfrost]

well one thing i found out tonight is that you dont need a fine strainer at all for cracked corn!

i started out using a new pillow case and it worked great to start then quickly clogged up and literally held in the liquid like a plastic bag lots of tiny bits, like flour. is this normal or did i just not get a good conversion and had lotsa starch dust left over?

switched to a pasta colander and it worked beautifully. the next batch is bubbling away happily and looks to have gotten a much higher conversion rate looking at the gravity numbers so far.

[Dnderhead]

""lots of tiny bits, like flour. is this normal ""
yes with whole corn ,I believe that is turb (protein) Iv tried drying it and it turned out like rubber.
that is why some say you can only use old style white corn (maze) less protein more starch.there
is some corn that has the germ removed but Iv never tried it.

[Hack]

Eternalfrost, I've had the same experience. I use one of the trays from my malt drying cabinet to strain. It's got a sheet of perforated aluminum for the bottom with a pattern of 1/8" and 1/16" holes punched in it. I set a five gallon bucket with the bottom cut out in the tray and pour the mash in the bucket. It works well and whatever gets through the screen settles out after fermentation. I usually let the mash set for a week after fermentation stops to let it settle, then siphon off the top clear stuff and distill it.

[blind drunk]

I was going to use one of those perforated pizza pans lined with food grade burlap. Maybe one on top of the other could make it "adjustable" by misaligning the holes. BD.

[Usge]

I buy the corn cracked (it's the same price) in 40-50lb bags. Then run it through my barley crusher malt mill at the barley setting. This is a bit more resistance than the barley to crank through, but it doesn't seem to be having any negative impact on the mill itself and that makes the mill handy for both crushing my corn and my barley.

I don't ferment on the grain. Maybe I just missed something, but I didn't find that it made any significant difference in regards to flavor/taste but it DID make a significant difference in mess/hassle. My BOP has a false bottom screen and a pickup on the bottom just above the ballvalve. That takes care of most of it, and the wort just drains right off straight into the fermenter. If I want to sweeten the mash, I put the raw sugar in the fermenter before straining off the hot wort into it. (they say corn sugar has a smoother taste) If I sparge, I use a gallon or so of "cool" water and a potlid to compress the grains (in the pot) against the bottom screen to get any last bit of juice.

You "can" sparge even if you aren't using sugar, but unless you have calculated the additional sparge water into your overall volume, and intend on boiling the end result down some, you are going to be thinning your mash and lowering the OG. When using sugar to make a "thin mash", you can adjust/bring back up the OG afterwards. Although the thin mash "is" a different profile than pure all-grain, its more similar to the all grain taste than sugar washes (or UJSM type no-cook washes) are. Actually, I found it quite good, so long as you don't try and cut things too far.

The only sparge method I've found that actually had some impact on things in regard to mashing corn for distillation was Dunders method of sparging off grains and using that water to start the next round of mash. Over time, this will show up on your hydrometer. But, mostly, the larger differences between beer methods and methods for distillation have to do with the difference between barley and corn as the main ingredient. Corn is just a different animal all together.

Most of the differences between the 2 (ie., beer making vs making a mash for distillation) are related specifically to the fact that for beer, the mash/wash "is" going to be the final product. So, things like clarity, protein rests, etc., and such, are important and have an impact on the wash or mash itself, will directly have impact on the final product. Many of those things that are differences between procedures commonly used for beer making vs distilling are simply because they are unnecessary or irrelevant to a wort that's about to be fermented for distilling.

[blind drunk]

If you don't get a perfect conversion with the grains, then wouldn't fermenting on the grain allow time for the conversion to happen during fermentation? It might be a way of getting more product in the end. And since you're getting the grain out anyways, what's the difference if you do it before or after fermentation, except maybe the space taken up by the grain during fermentation. I like to procrastinate so later is always better

[Dnderhead]

room in fermenter, alcohol left in grain (unless you do on grain distilling) Iv never had problems converting. Iv seen some cook and distill at the same
time but i do not like all the stirring and not have the setup for on grain any way.

[phenol 90]

Hi there,

Interesting discussion going on here.

I'm an all grain beer brewer. Have been for quite some time now. I started out brewing beer with the cans (or kits) but slowly turned to all grain as I improved my set-up. These days I make a very clean lager and very clean pilsner which requires a bit more work than an ale, but well worth it if you desire a clean crisp beer. Anyway...I digress.

I'm new to this forum, and I'm in the process of designing a 20 gallon copper pot still modeled on a traditional Scottish whisky still. Distilling is new to me and the plan is to eventually produce a reasonable single malt whisky.

The discussion here is interesting in the sense that I have been concerned in my designs about burning an all-grain wash during distillation which had me thinking about a steam heating system. But what I have learn't now (I think this is correct) is that if I follow my regular mash and fermentation procedure this might not be such a problem, I can infact use an internal immersion ellement (I wan't to avoid direct firing with flame because of indoors and saftey)...again I digress...

Here's a rough description of what my procedure is during mash and fermentation for all grain beer (lager/pilsner):

I mash in a 40 liter cylindrical 'Rubber maid' water cooler with a false bottom using all barley. This takes about 1hr to 1.5hrs maintaining the temp at 65 degrees celcius. Usually I get around 80 percent malt extraction efficiency, but this varies slightly on occasion.

After mash and sparging has been completed the grains are discarded to the
compost, the mash, come wort, cooked for an hour on the boil (turkey burner and
keg kettle set up), then cooled down to correct yeast fermentation temperature.
It then goes into a 60 liter plastic fermenter (car-boy) at correct temp and yeast is pitched.

Fermenter is sealed up with an airlock and after primary fermentation is
complete (usually between 1 to 2 weeks), I rack off into another 60 liter fermenter, carefully leaving behind the sludge in
the bottom of the fermenter (I set this aside to harvest for yeast later). I then wait another week or two for the fermented
wort to clear up even more (basically cold-lagering in a fridge). After this it gets bottled.

Going from the research I've done, it seems to me from that those who are distilling all grain washes (on-the-grain fermenters not included) seem to skip on the boil after mash and sparge and go straight to fermentation. I need to research more into the reasons behind this but other than that it seems that my process is fairly close to what some others are doing, aside from using different types of grains and strains of yeast.

The process above may seem a bit lengthy to some, but once a system is in place it's quite simple and sure does produce the right results with the beer.

Now I just need to work how I can adapt this process better to the art and science of distillation and all that is involved. Time for more research....

Oh yeah, any feedback or critique would be great.

All the best to you,

Phenol 90

[Usge]

I'm not an expert, but most of the differences in process from beer making have to do because the primary ingredient is usually "corn" rather than malt, there is no hops at all, and the process of distillation renders "some" of the practices in beer making pointless (like processes related to dryness, texture/mouthfeel or clarity of the wort...much of which goes right out the window when you distill it). Some of those things could have some influence in the final product brought over so I wouldn't count them out entirely....but their impact would be "greatly" reduced after making it through a distillation process. Having said that, it isn't going to "hurt" anything either. So, if its a process you are just used to, setup for and don't want to change, that makes perfect sense. And sense you are using all malt (scotch), all the more better.

If you'd rather buy than make something...you might have a look at these:

http://www.copper-alembic.com/shop/inde ... &catId=147" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

Complete with everything down to the hotplate and parrot and stands. They are from portugal. Ain't cheap, but.....

That or talk the Colonel into building you a smaller (10-50 gal) version of this
http://www.coppermoonshinestills.com/id50.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

[phenol 90]

Thanks Usge,

Will skip on the boil for the reasons you've pointed out. Your response is congruent with others elsewhere. Certainly wont be adding hops to the boil. I'd probably only bother with a boil if I decided on the need to clean up my wort with copper finings

Checked out those stills. They sure are nice. The freight costs to here are mighty taxing on the wallet, however!

I've got my hands on a 60 gallon copper tank from a water heater. It's nice and wide, about a metre in diameter and has a domed top and base. For a boiler, I'm thinking I'll cut that down to size, whack on a copper sheet base and keep the nice domed roof just like the Scottish stills. It looks remarkably similar. The other half will be kept for a rainy day, perhaps for back up parts and / or to become a wash or spirit still...

I'll start a new thread and post pictures as it happens. Much to be done.

Cheers.

[Dnderhead]

from what I know about beer, the main reason for the boil is to concentrate the sugar content after adding the sparg water,
if you don't add it back in the wort wont be watered down, but instead sparg and and use sparg water to cook the next batch with
then it wont be lost.(Ive measured some and is about 1-3%? depending how much grain was used) and saves "cooking down" the wort.
the only problem is that if doing one ferment of that type, but that can be overcome as the sparg water could be used in another wash/mash
even if it was not the same type.(you could use sparg water from all malt in bourbon or UJSM or even a sugar wash)

[Usge]

You bet Phenol...and that sounds like a great still project! Love to see it as it's going together. Be sure to take pics along the way
Just make sure that watertank ain't got any lead solder, or other things you don't want in it.

[eternalfrost]

from what I know about beer, the main reason for the boil is to concentrate the sugar content after adding the sparg water

this can be the case sometimes, but usually only needed if you mess up. the gravity can vary widely depending on the ratio of grain to water while mashing, the volume of sparge water, the speed of the sparge, and the temperature of the sparge water.

ideally, the boiling is purely for flavor, not adjusting the gravity of the wort.
hops is very bitter and sharp on its own. it balances the heavy, sweet, thick aspects of the malt. the longer you boil the hops, the more of its flavanoids escape into the air.
it is typical practice to add a mass of hops at the very beginning and boil those for 60 min for a milder base flavor. then add another mass 10 min before the end to layer in the sharp notes back in.

at any rate, the boil is totally unnecessary for whiskys.

just got back from 2 weeks above the arctic circle. will probably be doing another batch soon. will try fermenting off the grain and see what difference it makes in flavor and ease of use.

[muckanic]

Now I just need to work how I can adapt this process better to the art and science of distillation and all that is involved.

It is usually a good idea to add some sort of dry beer enzyme either pre or during fermentation. That can increase the alcohol yield by 25%.

[phenol 90]

Hi Muchanic,

Nice idea, I've been wondering about that. Have been working hard on my yeast starters these days so as to get a really healthy cell count up and minimize the lag-time on primary fermentation. I've heard some people use the dry enzymes in their starters as well. Haven't found I've needed it in my starter yet. Maybe I'll try adding some straight into the pre-fermented wort as you suggest.

Cheers,

Phenol.

[makhno]

some of the info in the above replies is correct, some is a little off. i am both an all-grain brewer and a distiller of single malts so i might be quilified to answer your questions.

first, your concern regarding burning a malt "mash" (it is technically referred to as a wash or beer in scotland) in the still is unfounded. since you are heating only liquid in the still, after having mashed, vorlaufed, and lautered the grains, there is no solid matter to burn, just as in brewing. the cold break, hot break, and yeast should mostly have settled to the bottom of the fermenter. of course, using an internal heating element can complicate matters but shouldn't cause scorching with a all-malt wash. personally, i would highly recommend against internal heating elements, but i also understand not everyone has the ability to use external burners in a safe, discreet, outdoor, environment.

Boiling the wort for your beer accomplishes much more than many of the replies imply. It does reduce the volume of the wort, thus concentrating the gravity. this is needed with all-grain brewing due to the large volume of sweet wort collected through the mash/lauter process. It also kills bacterias, mainly lactic ones, that were present in the grains, allowing a palatable, not-sour beer. it also infuses hop bitterness, flavor, and aroma into the wort. it also coagulates proteins (hot and cold break) that would make the beer (more)cloudy and (more)prone to spoilage. if you do not boil the sweet wort you plan to ferment and distill it will develop a sour lactic tang. this is okay since you are not drinking the wash itself but will give a slightly different character to the final spirit. i boil the sweet wort for 10 minutes sometimes and other times skip the boil. it is good both ways, just slightly different.

to make all malt whiskey simply mash at a lower temp then usual (145 F)and lauter the appropriate quantity of grain for the volume you want to ferment and add a distillers yeast. do not use turbo yeast as it unneeded for all malt wash and can produce off flavors. scotch/irish distilleries usually shoot for potential alcohol of the wash to be around 6% but i generally go i little higher to increase yield. 9% or so.

after fermentation is complete siphon the wash into your wash still. the first distillation should be relatively fast and hard and you should collect all the spirit (don't take cuts). Your low wines should proof at around 60-80 (30%-40%). Expect about 1/4 the volume of the wash to be collected as low wines.

if you have a smaller separate spirit still you can go ahead and distill this taking the appropriate cuts. you should do the second distillation slower and gentler and the distillate should exit the condenser cool. your hearts will start somewhere in the 160's proof range and the finish depends on what you want. you can go deeper into the feints if you are aging in a barrel for an extended time but keep it cleaner if you are just putting it on chips. usually i collect down to 120 proof and then begin collecting in smaller vessels and evaluating them as i go until i deem it too feinty. then but your feints vessel under the output and crank your heat to get as much alcohol for redistilling as possible without wasting all your fuel and time.

sorry if this was a little sloppy, have to get to work.

[Slow & Steady]

My all-grain procedures have changed over the years. Here is what I do currently.

1) Bring water to boil in 60L stainless steel stock pot.
2) Add harder grains (corn, rye, wheat) and continue to simmer.
3) Stir in Amylase as mixture starts to thicken.
4) Continue cooking 45 minutes turn off heat, cool to optimum conversion temp then stir in Malt.
5) Stir in Gluconase and let convert for 90 minutes.
6) Cool to ferment temp add distillers yeast with nutrient and ferment on grains.
7) rack off liquid when fermentation settles.
squeeze off wash grains in stainless steel press until grains are a firm brick (almost all input water recovered).
9) rack wash after settling is finished.

Then I distill it two times in my pot still.

S&S

[muckanic]

some of the info in the above replies is correct, some is a little off. i am both an all-grain brewer and a distiller of single malts so i might be quilified to answer your questions.

if you do not boil the sweet wort you plan to ferment and distill it will develop a sour lactic tang. this is okay since you are not drinking the wash itself but will give a slightly different character to the final spirit. i boil the sweet wort for 10 minutes sometimes and other times skip the boil. it is good both ways, just slightly different.

I find any mash conducted above about 50C/120F to be enough to knock out most bacteria. Sure, there are some rogue species around, but most brewers would be unlikely to encounter them. There are considerable variations, however, in the brewing environments in which the wort cools down prior to fermentation.

[piddler]

wow! what an amazing thread! I’m only sorry it didn’t go many more than 2 pages. I continue to be amazed,,extremely grateful and humbled by the wealth of knowledge shared by some of the “zen masters” on this forum. Hopefully after many years i’ll have a little bit of knowledge to share and be able to help carry the torch. till then; thanks muckanic,, slow and steady, makhno, phenol 90 and everyone else who contributed to this thread. Since it ended about 9 years ago i also hope you all doing well and in good health.
cheers!
piddler