first corn/grain brew/mash

[Eugene]

Hi all,

I want to take the next step and do a grain, corn brew to make bourbon, I had planned to start with UJSM method, but after reading, maybe too much, I think I want to try an all grain cooked mash, with corn as the main ingrediant,

I am now reading about "cooked" mashes with corn and stories of it turning into a big sticky mess are starting to scare me, I have a 50 lt keg with the top cut out, which I plan to use a my BOP and also ferment in on the grain.

Questions.

Could I mash an amount of barley or rye, then add the corn uncooked (so it doesnt become a mushy mess), then add enzimes to help it convert to sugar.

what enzime should I use to convert the corn starch, or will adding Barley malt do this, at the moment I am confussed as to what to do, I really want to do a cooked (mashed) corn brew, but dont really want a big sticky mess.

What should I do, ant tips on mashing corn would be good, I have 45 pound of cracked corn waiting, I also had a look at some liquid "light malt" from the Home brew shop, which is made from 2 row barley, would this work with the corn to help it convert.

I am not in a rush, as I still have to build mt pot still head, tips would be good, I have read heaps and I will keep reading, but tips would be great.

Thanks

[Hawke]

Corn is one of the hardest grains to mash.
If UJSM sounds like too much work, a cooked mash is out of the question.
UJSM is a sugar wash with the corn used as a flavoring and neutriants for the yeast.

To take advantage of the starches in corn, it must be cooked or the enzymes can't get to it in any quantity. The two enzymes needed are alpha-amylase and gluco-amylase.

The alpha- breaks the starch into long-chain sugars, then the gluco- breaks the long-chain sugars into simple sugar that the yeast can use.
These are the same enzymes that occur naturaly in a base malt.

If you want to try an all grain, I suggest starting with a thin mash (1 pound per gallon) and work your way up to a full mash of 2 pounds per gallon.

Pre-soaking and pre-malting helps keep the mash from getting too thick. (add a small portion of malted barley or the alpha- before heating)

Good luck

[Eugene]

Corn is one of the hardest grains to mash.
If UJSM sounds like too much work, a cooked mash is out of the question.
UJSM is a sugar wash with the corn used as a flavoring and neutriants for the yeast.

To take advantage of the starches in corn, it must be cooked or the enzymes can't get to it in any quantity. The two enzymes needed are alpha-amylase and gluco-amylase.

The alpha- breaks the starch into long-chain sugars, then the gluco- breaks the long-chain sugars into simple sugar that the yeast can use.
These are the same enzymes that occur naturaly in a base malt.

If you want to try an all grain, I suggest starting with a thin mash (1 pound per gallon) and work your way up to a full mash of 2 pounds per gallon.

Pre-soaking and pre-malting helps keep the mash from getting too thick. (add a small portion of malted barley or the alpha- before heating)

Good luck

Thanks for the response Hawke,

The malted barley, I imagine would have to be in Grain form to still have the active enzimes, is this right, or will Liquid malt (home brew, un-hopped) do the job.

Does any one know if these two enzimes are available in Australia, and if so, what are they called/sold as.

I dont mind the work required for a UJSM, as I know it would be a lot easier than a full mash, but I think if I am going to do a grain brew, it may as well be a real cooked mash. I have friends who all grain beer and it takes them 8-9 hours to do a brew, but the beer is out of this world, so I have an idea of what is required, I just dont want to mess it up on my first try.

Thanks again.

[Hawke]

No, liquid malt does not have the active enzymes. The malt needs to be in grain form and dried, not roasted, to have active enzymes.

[pumpman]

So the powdered malts are out of the question as well?

[radio11]

Hey pumpman,i got a 120 pounds of corn siting here waiting to be cooked/mashed.but i also have some whiskey yeast and some amyloglucosidase(ag)going to start out with about a 10 gallon batch just to see how it works out.maybe we can keep this topic open.like to hear any input from u.thanks.

[Hack]

So the powdered malts are out of the question as well?

Powdered malt won't convert other grains,but makes a really nice and easy "instant single malt" whiskey. Just add water and yeast.

[blind drunk]

Hey Eugene, while the malt extracts and dry powders that homebrew shops stock are probably not diastatic or enzyme active they do both come in diastatic form. Bakeries use them to "fix" flours that are low is sprouted grain and therefore have low enzymatic strength. Bad conversion equals bad bread. If you know a baker or have a bakery nearby you could ask. Given the drought over there in the past years, a lot of bakeries are probably using it or have a bag or a pail in the back. Good luck, bd.

[Dnderhead]

The malt you buy in a brew shop is malt that has been crushed/converted /cooked down to either a syrup or spray dried
the "drastic malt" is flour made from malt . the "rejected" malt (malt that does not pass for beer etc) is ground
sifted as is for dried or water added to make a syrup.

[Eugene]

Hi All,

Thanks to all for answers and responses, I went to the home brew shop today and got a kilo of malted barley, some red star whiskey yeast? and some enzimes, both alpha and AG, two different brands, liquid, I hope it works OK.

I think I will order a pound of both the alpha and Gluco enzyme from mile high, unless someone can point me to some in Australia???

What sort of temp should I mash the corn at, plan was to pre-soak the corn about 5 kilo and the one kilo of barley, along with half of the alpha enzime, let soak for several hours, slowly bring to 40 deg c (105 f ) and hold there for an hour or so, then slowly raise to 71 deg c (160 f) and hold for an hour???, let cool and bring up to volume (25 liters) and pitch yeast. then add the other half of the alpha and the AG enzyme.

How does this sound? Are my temps and times close or way off?

Thanks again.

EDIT: I just dragged out the second of the Enzymes and read the fine print, it it labeled as amyloglucosidase enzyme concentrate and stabilizers

would I need to use the Alpha, given the Malted barley and the above product or should I use both, Thanks again.

[Hawke]

corn needs to be held at 180*F for at least an hour for full separation, then let cool to temp for the alpha-.

[eternalfrost]

ive just been starting with corn and beer. its really not all that much more work. its a lot of time but its sort of like cooking a roast, theres only 30 min of real 'work' in that bunch of hours it takes.

i let a few liters of corn sour for a few days then add to 10-12 lbs cracked corn in a 15 gal food barrel and let soak for a day or two. then use a steam wand to pull it up to near boiling for an hour or so. let it cool to striking temp and add 2-10 lbs malted beer barley. mix and let convert an hour or so. when cooled pirch yeast, ferment on the grains right in the barrel. drain off with false bottom when done.

with good insulation heating up takes very little time. it also means you dont have to baby sit the temperature during conversion. i only check it once during the whole hour. so all in all, it only adds maby 30 min of actual paying-attention-time to making a batch, not bad at all!

[Dnderhead]

agreed,,,, but it is like tying to explain to some one how to walk after they've been in a coma for 5+ years.
it is easy but------------

[pumpman]

Powdered malt won't convert other grains,but makes a really nice and easy "instant single malt" whiskey. Just add water and yeast.[/quote]


Thanks Hack I'll ad that to my do try list.

[bronzdragon]

For a 5 gallon batch, I get 5 pounds of cracked corn, 2 pounds of 2 row malted barley and 1 pound malted rye or wheat (depending on which flavor you like better.) Crush the grains.

I cook my corn in a pot just like you would oatmeal. Be sure and stir it all the time, or it will burn to the bottom. After about half an hour, it will be a big pot of porridge basically.

Turn off the heat and let it come down to about 155 or so. Then I thin it out with some hot water and stir in my grain. I add this to my mash tun and top up to 5 gallons and stir well. What you want to do is hit a mash temperature somewhere between 148 and 155 F. Do not go higher or you will kill the enzymes in the malted grain. I also like to add 10-15 drops of Beano for the enzymes to the mash.

I let this sit overnight (it's in an insulated cooler so the temp doesn't drop much.) Then I sparge the grains with 170 degree hot water until I collect my 5 gallons.

And then use an appropriate yeast and nutrient.

cheers
~bd~

[Eugene]

Well,

I have some corn "souring" as we speak, I will grab some more barley and rye tomorrow, the plan is for 5 kg corn, 2.5 kg malted barley, 2.5 kg rye.

I read a really good tutorial over at artesion by Pinto-shine on how to sour the corn, pre-malt etc, so I will follow his plan for a 45 liter wash, using the alpha and ag enzymes I have also. I don't have a steam generator, I will be using gas, so a bit of careful attention will be required to get the temps correct.

How long should I pre-soak the corn for, I have a combustion stove which runs 24 hrs a day, so I was thinking of sitting my BOP next to or on top of, with the corn, half the barley and enough water to cover by half and hold there at 40 deg c for several hours, or is longer better.

I also planned on using a spiral style paint stirrer on my power drill for stirring duties, does this sound ok? or should I build a big ass stainless spoon/paddle to do the job, I know the crappy plastic spoon I have wont cut it trying to stir a 10 kg lump of poridge.

thanks again

[eternalfrost]

if your using direct flame be very careful of burning the bottom.

if you already have a good size still, which i assume you do if your bothering to do AG mashes, its very easy to make a steam wand that runs off your boiler. i made mine with spare parts from my still. i highly recomend it because you wont ever have to worry about scotching and you can also use big food storage barrels which are much cheaper then getting a 15+ gallon SS container.

[blind drunk]

I know the crappy plastic spoon I have wont cut it trying to stir a 10 kg lump of poridge.

I use a big ass stainless whisk - it keeps the grains a little more separated. Also, if you pre malt like Hawke suggested, it won't be that lumpish. You'll see the whole thing become a suspended oatmeal and not a big stick to your ribs lump. Sound like fun, good luck, bd.

[Hawke]

A mud/paint mixer in a 1/2" drill works great for stirring large batches.