Open or closed fermentation

[Hutch-]

For those of you who've made a pear wash, have you used an open fermentation, or sealed with an airlock? I don't have access to a cider press otherwise I'd do straight pear juice, so I'm going to freeze 4 bushels and add only 5 lb. of sugar per bushel. After inverting the sugar, I'll pour the boiling liquid over the pears to kill of an remaining bacteria, then add 8 oz. lemon juice and yeast.

I frequently make wine from grapes where an open top fermentor is necessary to release gases and add oxygen, but I was told a sealed container works best for pears.

[goose eye]

what you workin it off in. garbage sacks gorcery sacks so forth an so on.
you gotta watch fruit cause of the drunkards flyin around. with corn ole boys
mite put wood an a rock cause it gonna work off so quick.
put the pears in a feed sack cause it aint no fun strainin what gonna be left
when it worked off

so im tole.

[Hutch-]

Using 32 gal. brutes to ferment in, maybe even 6 gal. buckets. good idea about the sack, I have some paint straining bags around some place.

[Fester]

Hutch, if you are able to check the pH of your fruit mash before you add the lemon juice that would be better. Adjust your recipe to "lemon juice as needed". If you drive the pH too low with the citric acid (lemon juice), the ferment can stall on you. I usually add a dab of lemon juice - about an ounce or so per 5 pounds of sugar - to the sugar water when I'm inverting it. I usually do OK with a wash pH of around 5 to 6. It really aint too critical unless it gets under 4. If the ferment starts really slow and then slows down more, that would be the first thing I'd check. If you adjust the pH, wait about 10 minutes or so after you stir it in to check the pH again. Others may disagree but cooking the fruit and all for a half hour would be better than just pouring boiling water on top. The wild critters in fruit can ruin your ferment and your good mood. Some use a few campden tablets a day before pitching the yeast to kill off the stray micro-bugs. Fruit seems to take longer to ferment out so it would be best to clean everything that touches your wash very well with a sanitizer (One Step or the like from the UBrew store or some bleach water - rinse well) and use a clean airlock. I really never take any of these extra steps unless I'm working with a fruit. And thats not typical for me because I like corn.
8 ounces of lemon juice does not sound like too much to me if you are making up about 30 gallons of wash or so. (I think 25 to 30 gallons of wash is the perfect amount to work with. It lets you put away about a case of finished booze -or more since you're also using some sugar- and gives you lots of tasty feints to use later.) Just trying to let you know one of the many ways I've managed to screw things up. Another way I managed that was by putting sanitizer in the airlock. If you push down on the fermenter lid just a little it will suck some liquid from your airlock into your wash and kill the yeast.

Good luck and let us know how this ferment turns out for you,
Fester

[Hutch-]

Thanks for the advice Fester. You hit my main concern, and that's bacteria spoiling the ferment. Since 200 lbs. of fruit is too much to boil for the amount of time I have, I'll go the campden tablet route.

[Hutch-]

I didn't have freezer space, so I ran whole pears through a garden shredder. Ended up with about 40 gal. of pear mush to which I added 30 lbs. of sugar (inverted) and 14 gal. of water. No sulfite or lemon juice. Split into 2 batches, I used baker's yeast in one, and champagne yeast in the other - both are fermenting at 69 F. I didn't get and SG reading to start, so I'll ferment out until the cap falls. I'll strain some juice at that point to see if it fermented to dryness.

Any thoughts on fermenting on or off the pulp, attempting to strain 56 gal. of wash is not appealing. I have a 10 gal. stainless boiler with a removable copper plate on the bottom to help with scorching, but I'm not sure it will be enough as it is an actual "plate" so it does not sit flat on the bottom. Heat source is large banjo burner with good control of the flame.

[goose eye]

you got a mess.
add pectic enzime an let it work off an setle an dip off just the liquid.

so im tole

[The Baker]

Thanks for the advice Fester. You hit my main concern, and that's bacteria spoiling the ferment. Since 200 lbs. of fruit is too much to boil for the amount of time I have, I'll go the campden tablet route.

Or you might try just some of it without all the sanitising and stuff and without adding any yeast.
Let the natural yeasts do the fermenting. That would have been the traditional way and it worked well with the apricot brandy I made.
Though I didn't get the cuts that good.

Of course you take a risk of the natural yeasts not being good ones but it must have usually worked out okay in the old days.

[Fester]

Very good point Mr Baker but that scares me a bit because I'm a control freak. The very thought of trusting unknowned bugs to work my ferment is more than I can take. I know it happens anyway, no mater what I do. But I try to minimize it. That method is for adventurous folks. Definately not for Chicken Hearted Fester.

[Hutch-]

UPDATE - after a few days of fermenting, I scooped the cap of the top leaving mostly juice as the fruit as broken down. I avoided pectic enzyme, reading somewhere on the board that it tends to produce excess methanol. So far so good, should be able to get an accurate hydrometer reading now. After settling, I'll strain and get a fairly clean wash to run.

[Dnderhead]

heres part of it--

The use of commercial pectic enzyme preparations does increase the methanol content of wines, though more so for red varieties. Though the use of these preparations increased the methanol content proportionately more for white varieties, the final methanol content is less than that for similarly treated red varieties. The use of these preparations increased the methanol content of red wines during the early stages of fermentation.

[goose eye]

if you was usein all juice i wouldnt use it but you aint. you tryin to break that mush down. aint no need to be in no hurry you gonna be there awhile.
got a question bout more/less. how much is that to the barel.

so im tole

[Fester]

yeah Hutch, I'm thinking you are in the same pickle I was in with an all-grain when it comes to seperating off the liquid for the still. I know you can do it but it will be lots of work. Like you, I wanted to get all the goodness from the ferment and if I discarded the "bulk" at the beginning then I knew I would lose so much. Maybe a lot more for your fruit than my corn.
But the coin is tossed now and you have decided on your course, fermenting "on the fruit" like I fermented "on the grain". At some time soon you must try to get the liquid, as much as possible, out of the fermenter. I still think that boiling a big burlap sack and pouring your ferment through it into another clean fermenter would be a good idea, as suggested above, to remove the bulk of the solids. Then allow that to finish/settle out. If that is not an option, consider a fining agent as suggested and then rack off into another vessel and allow it to work off for a few days and rack that into your boiler. At some point you must get the liquid into your still without the solids gumming up the guttyworks. Let me know your solution. Ain't nothing easy except a sugar wash in this hobby. Thats why we are so interested in this thread. You are doing what I and others want to do. I just don't have access to low cost fruit.

Fester

[Tater]

I grind apples and pears ferment and run on pulp. Bigger chunks are easier to scorch .I also add lots of copper pieces in still when doing fruit.Heating slower then I do with sugar washes.This works for me .Seem easiest way to get around issue would be to add thumper and put what wont strain out in it.

[Hutch-]

Got lucky on this one, most of the mush did break down to juice without pectic enzyme (will use is next time for sure). Scooped the heavy leaves of the top, got mostly juice now. The remainder should be easy to filter out. I like the burlap sack idea, but might be hard to locate.

[Hutch-]

Updates been a long time coming... the final product turned out great, my best yet. Part of that is the fact I'm paying closer attention to cuts, the other I believe is how I did the spirit run. I did 5 stripping runs, then added the low wines to my last 6 gal. of wash for the spirit run. Tons of flavor came through even without going deep into the tails. That combined with conservative cuts resulted in a relatively smooth product cut down to 90% even though its unaged.

The stripping runs started at 65% and dropped off fast. I discarded fores all along the way, collected deep into tails. Final run began near 80%, collected down to 35%. Decided to discard the last quart due to off taste and smell.

[Fester]

wow, nice Hutch. how many gallons did you wind up with? i really like the idea of using a 50/50 low wines/wash for the spirit run. was that about the ratio you used?

[Hutch-]

I'd say it was more like 1 to 3 low wines to wash. I didn't get a beginning brix, the mash was way to thick, but it safe to say starting ABV of the fermented wash was in the single digits. I finished with approx. 6 quarts of spirit at close to 53%, and cut that back to 45%. I had another quart I had to set aside, because tails kicked in and I didn't catch it in time. Probably would have had another 24+ oz. of usable hooch. A lot of work for not much finished product, but it turned out damn fine. Can't stress enough how much of the fruit is coming through distilling this way. I was concerned about spirit run stripping all the flavor away. Good chance I'll do it again next year.

Also may take the last quart that I set aside for some pear liqour. I'm hoping the sugar/syrup masks the tails coming through.

[Fester]

maybe after some airing and aging that last quart would be very acceptable to you. i agree, 100 pounds of fruit with 30 pounds of sugar added does seem like you'd get more booze but you got about 1/2 a case of good stuff that will be tastier every day (at least until its gone). so you can't complain. in my mind, i'd thought you'd get twice that much. of course when i do all grain, i always suffer the same fate.
you got a name picked out for it?

[Hutch-]

In the Balkans they call it Kruskovac, which can apply to the brandy or the liqueur, kruska meaning pear. I plan on running all my fruit washes, even grappa, using this same method moving forward.

[Tater]

Id thought that recipe gave ya around 3 gallons 100 proof myself

[Fester]

Hutch, I re-read this thread. It was 200 pounds of pears and 30 pounds of sugar? If so, something is wrong. Even after serious cuts you should have gotten AT LEAST 4 gallons at 50%. Where did the other 2.5 gallons go?
You wrote, "mostly juice as the fruit as broken down" so I tend to think you got a complete ferment.
That could only leave the still, I'd think. Maybe you have a leak somewhere?
Perhaps test your still... take a gallon or two of 40% - just any old thing you got laying around - and re-distill it. Try to recover as much as you can. You can't ever get it all back for some reason but if you suffer a big loss then you know where the problem is. (You can also put some water in the still, plug up the worm with a cork, add a little heat to the still and slather some soapy water on all the joints and connections. You'll know quick if you got a leaks and where they are. The cork will act as a safety to keep the still from being able to get over pressurized.)

It could only be two things, the ferment or the still. But somewhere you lost at least 60% of your potiential yield.
Just the sugar alone, without the pears, should have yielded about twice what you collected. 30 pounds of sugar should yield more than 15 quarts of 50% according the calculator on the parent site http://homedistiller.org/wash-sugar.htm#yield" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow.
If it aint the still, then your ferment stalled before it completed fermentation.

Any thoughts on this?

[Tater]

single running I get 2 1/2- 3 gallons 100 proof on 1 bushel and 20 lbs sugar

[Fester]

single running I get 2 1/2- 3 gallons 100 proof on 1 bushel and 20 lbs sugar

yes, one bushel of pears weighs 56 pounds. So Hutch used almost 4 bushels of pears and 30 pounds of sugar. So the potiential yield for him should have been close to 3 times what he collected.

I'd like to pick up a bushel of pears and apples at the farmers market and give it a go myself.
I have a nice juicer machine and would probably just juice them all into a fermenter and toss in a few campden tablets. but maybe there is an advantage to cooking the juice on a good simmer for an hour or so? invert maybe a 25 pound sack of sugar and add that.
what OG should i shoot for? what kind of yeast do you prefer for fruits? any extra nutrients needed?
maybe you could post your recipe and procedure or if you have already, provide a link? I looked in 'Tried and True' but didn't see it.

[Tater]

http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... =14&t=2196 last apple I made I bought cider mix from orchard instead of doing apples as I usually do them. For me there was a slight loss of flavor .But hell lot less work then form using fruit pulped.

[Fester]

I remember reading that a long time ago. I can never seem to search anything without getting distracted into another thread... then another... at last I am lost.
Thanks, it gives me everything I need to know.
With a little luck, my fruit trees will start to bear in a couple more years.

[Hutch-]

Fellas, I think the problem is I saw the distillate get cloudy because I was runnin to hot, so I cut the run and left too much in the boiler. Thoughts?

[Fester]

Fellas, I think the problem is I saw the distillate get cloudy because I was runnin to hot, so I cut the run and left too much in the boiler. Thoughts?

nope, don't think that was it. even running hot you'd get much more yield than you did and any cloudy spirit would usually come late unless it was so hot it was puking and that could easily be fixed by another run. I'm thinking the run was not too hot. You started collecting at a high proof that quickly fell off. You took it down to about 35% on the spirit run. So you got most everthing that's worthwhile to get. Most folks strip fast and spirit run slow, maybe too slow.
Its something else thats wrong.
I don't know your setup but I'm thinking that you boil off at least 8 gallons at a time by what i read on this thread and i assume you have a 15.5 gallon beer keg boiler. with that much head space I doubt it was puking.
I think the ferment was screwed somehow or your still is leaking like me after 7 beers. either way you gotta find the problem because you made the investment in labor and materials but didn't get the yield.

was your stripping runs cloudy too? if so, that's unusual even running very hard.

I've heard it said here before, and its true, if the alcohol isn't there (in the wash) - then you won't get it in the distillate too. Again, its either in the fermant or the still. Something's broke here.

[Hutch-]

Setup's a 10+ gal. ss milk can, no leaks at the lid. I have a heavy duty ss flange welded on the lid that the 2" column threads into, also leak free. There's a very high probability the ferment quit on me, it didn't taste near as dry as grape wine when the fermentation stopped bubbling. Out of plain laziness I didn't take a final sg reading, there's a good chance it was a stuck ferment.

All I added was yeast to the sugar/water/pear mush, next time I'll add some nutrient after the first or second day.

[Tater]

Had to been something . Like Fester I reread post and with that recipe Id figure around 22 lbs sugar from pears and with the added 30 lbs sugar ya should of got around 5 gallons 100 proof.If still wasn't leaking fermentation would be suspect.