Fermenter shape research?
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Fermenter shape research?
Ok guys I've been trying to find info about this and I'm not really coming up with anything to informative. Here in HD I have only found this one post by Titus-a-fishus that really states there can be a difference in the ferment from a different shaped fermenter. http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... 37&start=0 I have looked into the conical fermenters and find them to be a bit pricey for a hobbiest.
Here is what I have gathered so far. Info found mainly on beer brewing sites.
(1) A 1 to 1 ratio of hight to width is better for the yeast. This cuts down on pressure exerted by the liquid on the yeast. But many say at a hobby level this has little or no impact? Some say this also cuts down on heat created by the yeast? ( don't really get that one?)
(2) A conical shaped bottom with a 60 degree angle and a 1:1 area above it uses natural heat convection to create turbulence in the fermenter. The outside liquid cools and falls down the sides following the conical shape at the bottom. The liquid in the middle is heated from the yeast working making it rise. When it rises it pulls the cooled liquid that fell down the sides up to the middle again. This turbulence or current flow allows a greater mixture within the wash. And supposedly the dead yeast collects at the very bottom of the conical funnel. (Not sure how they don't get swept up with the current flow?)
Now that's all I have been able to come up with? If anyone has more to add I would love to hear it. Or if you know of some more research on it. Could you please point me to it?
All this research came about when I was looking to find a good fermenter for a hobby size operation that the average Joe could aford. I think I have came up with a good option and would like your input on if its worth trying or not?
This is what I'm thinking. I have a good supplier of 15 gal food grade blue barrels. They held Dr Pepper syrup. And they are free. They are 26" tall by 13" wide. Some have one 2" threaded bung on top some have two one 2" the other a 1". If I stand them normall I would have a hard time stacking them. I would like to fit 4 of them in a 36"x72"x16" area. I have one of those wire rack shelf units like you find in a restaurant. It's 36"x 60"x14" . I was thinking I could lay the barrels on their sides with the fill bungs at the top for the airloc. 4 would fit in the area needed. And it would do two other things. 1 Make the depth of liquid not so deep. Maybe have the effect of the #1 I covered above? And 2 It would have angled sides that could posably create the current flow like in #2 I covered above. I could rack them off while still on the shelf. And maybe later add a spigot at the proper level to drain the cleared wash off leaving behind the trub. After a few runs I could determine that level.
So do you think its worth the effort to do this?
Do you think it could make a difference in the ferment?
Would you like to see me experiment with this? Of course I would have to do 2 ferments with the barrels stood normal and 2 on their sides. All 4 washes being the same kind for comparison. With as many notes as I could take.
Here is what I have gathered so far. Info found mainly on beer brewing sites.
(1) A 1 to 1 ratio of hight to width is better for the yeast. This cuts down on pressure exerted by the liquid on the yeast. But many say at a hobby level this has little or no impact? Some say this also cuts down on heat created by the yeast? ( don't really get that one?)
(2) A conical shaped bottom with a 60 degree angle and a 1:1 area above it uses natural heat convection to create turbulence in the fermenter. The outside liquid cools and falls down the sides following the conical shape at the bottom. The liquid in the middle is heated from the yeast working making it rise. When it rises it pulls the cooled liquid that fell down the sides up to the middle again. This turbulence or current flow allows a greater mixture within the wash. And supposedly the dead yeast collects at the very bottom of the conical funnel. (Not sure how they don't get swept up with the current flow?)
Now that's all I have been able to come up with? If anyone has more to add I would love to hear it. Or if you know of some more research on it. Could you please point me to it?
All this research came about when I was looking to find a good fermenter for a hobby size operation that the average Joe could aford. I think I have came up with a good option and would like your input on if its worth trying or not?
This is what I'm thinking. I have a good supplier of 15 gal food grade blue barrels. They held Dr Pepper syrup. And they are free. They are 26" tall by 13" wide. Some have one 2" threaded bung on top some have two one 2" the other a 1". If I stand them normall I would have a hard time stacking them. I would like to fit 4 of them in a 36"x72"x16" area. I have one of those wire rack shelf units like you find in a restaurant. It's 36"x 60"x14" . I was thinking I could lay the barrels on their sides with the fill bungs at the top for the airloc. 4 would fit in the area needed. And it would do two other things. 1 Make the depth of liquid not so deep. Maybe have the effect of the #1 I covered above? And 2 It would have angled sides that could posably create the current flow like in #2 I covered above. I could rack them off while still on the shelf. And maybe later add a spigot at the proper level to drain the cleared wash off leaving behind the trub. After a few runs I could determine that level.
So do you think its worth the effort to do this?
Do you think it could make a difference in the ferment?
Would you like to see me experiment with this? Of course I would have to do 2 ferments with the barrels stood normal and 2 on their sides. All 4 washes being the same kind for comparison. With as many notes as I could take.
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Re: Fermenter shape research?
I can help with this. In a commercial brewery they run such a huge setup with such a large yeast colony that they can give out heat. As the yeast consumes the sugar, it like all living creatures (no matter how small) looses energy in the form of heat (think a compost heap heating up, or even catching fire from microbial action).Prairiepiss wrote: (1) A 1 to 1 ratio of hight to width is better for the yeast. This cuts down on pressure exerted by the liquid on the yeast. But many say at a hobby level this has little or no impact? Some say this also cuts down on heat created by the yeast? ( don't really get that one?)
Comercial fermenters often have to run lines of cooling water through their fermenters to prevent them getting so hot that the yeast kill themselves and/or produce funky off tastes in the wine.
At our level it is unlikely to be a problem as our washes are not large enough, and the small amount of extra heat is likely to be an advantage as in flavoured spirits it has been indicated that fermenting at a slightly higher than 'recomended' temprature may actualy create a more intersting ester profile.
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Re: Fermenter shape research?
id rather have open top fermenters,but if all you do is wash ,that is clear ferments
like sugar then the closed barrels are fine,but not for grain or fruits. as for shape
I dont thank it makes much difference with small ferments.heat is never a problem.
unless you live in some extreme climate.
like sugar then the closed barrels are fine,but not for grain or fruits. as for shape
I dont thank it makes much difference with small ferments.heat is never a problem.
unless you live in some extreme climate.
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Re: Fermenter shape research?
I'm sory the part I didn't get is how the 1to1 ratio would help keeping it cooler? You still have the same mass. Technically you still have the same surface area on the outside. So why would it run cooler? Unless by taking the weight pressure off the yeast makes them work cooler?
Dnderhead I'm not going to get into AG ferments for a while. And when I do fermenters with an open top will be a must. I will jump that hurdle when I get to it.
Dnderhead I'm not going to get into AG ferments for a while. And when I do fermenters with an open top will be a must. I will jump that hurdle when I get to it.
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Re: Fermenter shape research?
I'm not 100%, but i would think that you would get a more diffuse heat if the yeast cells were spread over a greater area.
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Re: Fermenter shape research?
The conical part os just for movimg liquid as the solids drop out of suspension below the outlet level
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Re: Fermenter shape research?
Unless you have an extremely large fermenter, holding hundreds of liters/gallons of wash, any differences in shape would be minimal... For the hobby scale, perhaps even up to 50 gallons of wash, there wouldn't be any real benefits...
Re: Fermenter shape research?
"more diffuse heat if the yeast cells were spread over a greater area."
the yeast is spread all over,they much like some animals seem to"herd"
around where the food is .dont read to much into "top or "bottom"
fermenting yeast, that does not really happon.top fermenting yeast
have rough skins,and they tend to "stick" to co2. therefor they take a ride
to the top. bottom fermenting have smooth skins and just float around.
with a conical fermenter the dead or inactive yeast and trub fall to bottom,now if you
look most either have a container or two valves. so the yeast/trub can be removed
wile still fermenting depending what you want to remove them for. this is just
what beer or wine brewers want. the wort/must can be cleared or yeast harvested with out worrying about aerating /contaminating ..if you really want to go for the gold the they
can have heating/cooling jackets.
the yeast is spread all over,they much like some animals seem to"herd"
around where the food is .dont read to much into "top or "bottom"
fermenting yeast, that does not really happon.top fermenting yeast
have rough skins,and they tend to "stick" to co2. therefor they take a ride
to the top. bottom fermenting have smooth skins and just float around.
with a conical fermenter the dead or inactive yeast and trub fall to bottom,now if you
look most either have a container or two valves. so the yeast/trub can be removed
wile still fermenting depending what you want to remove them for. this is just
what beer or wine brewers want. the wort/must can be cleared or yeast harvested with out worrying about aerating /contaminating ..if you really want to go for the gold the they
can have heating/cooling jackets.
Re: Fermenter shape research?
Feller in my neighborhood has a100 gallon conical fermenter for sale.he wants 400bucks but there is no lid and the valves are all booger'd.
Seems like a 20 or 30 would be about all a hobbyist would ever need
Seems like a 20 or 30 would be about all a hobbyist would ever need
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Re: Fermenter shape research?
So looks like I shouldn't waste my time experimenting. I thought that's what I would get out of it.
Now do you think it will hurt going ahead and laying them on their sides on my rack. Because they would fit my space much better if I could.
Now do you think it will hurt going ahead and laying them on their sides on my rack. Because they would fit my space much better if I could.
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Re: Fermenter shape research?
experiment if you want,
"do you think it will hurt going ahead and laying them on their sides on my rack. "
unless it is convenience I dont thank it will make much difference.
Iv used a beer ball,round, square,barrels,i never seen other than connivance no noticeable difference.
"do you think it will hurt going ahead and laying them on their sides on my rack. "
unless it is convenience I dont thank it will make much difference.
Iv used a beer ball,round, square,barrels,i never seen other than connivance no noticeable difference.
Re: Fermenter shape research?
Here's a potential experiment for you, Prairiepiss... See whether you get different results between vertical and horizontal fermenters... It has also been proven that shallow vessels with a lot of surface area ferment faster and cleaner than tall narrow vessels... I was just reading about that last week in one of the numerous PDF's I've downloaded over the years... Not sure which one it is right now but I think it's on my laptop...
Re: Fermenter shape research?
As to what Rad posted, I have 6 fermenters, all 6.5 gal, and two are 19 in tall and 4 are 15 in tall. I generally get a little bit better yield out of the shorter one's, never really figured out why. I just ordered a book on yeasts from Northern Brewing so I can learn more about what's going on there. Never realized how complicated fermenting actually is until I finally got around to researching it more.
Priariepiss -I'd take what info is offered here and experiment. I'd love to read your results.
Big R
Priariepiss -I'd take what info is offered here and experiment. I'd love to read your results.
Big R
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Re: Fermenter shape research?
I just did some quick research,this has more to do with heat than anything.
shallow fermenters give up heat better than tall ones,do to the top surface area.
this whould be more true with open fermenters than closed ones.
but this is contrary to what most want on this site. most want to ferment at 75-80f (167-176c).I know this make faster ferments but doing so produces more fusels.internal temperature can reach several degrees higher than external. so a
ferment in a 80* room could rich 85* internal or more depending on size.making a quick but off tasting frement.
shallow fermenters give up heat better than tall ones,do to the top surface area.
this whould be more true with open fermenters than closed ones.
but this is contrary to what most want on this site. most want to ferment at 75-80f (167-176c).I know this make faster ferments but doing so produces more fusels.internal temperature can reach several degrees higher than external. so a
ferment in a 80* room could rich 85* internal or more depending on size.making a quick but off tasting frement.
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Re: Fermenter shape research?
Ok so I guess I will do a little experimenting with it. From what Dnderhead posted I would like to be able to take temp readings from the middle of the ferment. Along with outside temps top and bottom I'm thinking? Both in the horizontal and vertical positions. Anybody have ideas on how to get a temp probe in the middle. I have a laser thermometer that I can use on the outside all over. It would be off a little because of the plastic thermal transfer? I would need roughly a 18" long probe to reach the center from the fill bung. Maybe an electric thermometer that has a remote wired thermal sensor. I could place it in the end of a piece of copper tubing with the wire run through it. Seal it up on the end.
Unfortunately my sons dog just ruined 10 pounds of sugar and two boxes of gerber cereal. So I will have to wait a little longer to start. He mite just find his way into a hole soon.
Unfortunately my sons dog just ruined 10 pounds of sugar and two boxes of gerber cereal. So I will have to wait a little longer to start. He mite just find his way into a hole soon.
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Re: Fermenter shape research?
Good idea. I have one. Won't get me in the middle . But I think it will get me close enough. Thanks Dnderhead.
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Re: Fermenter shape research?
I've seen digital thermos where the probe is at the end of a wire. Ya could feed it through the top using a rubber grommet to seal it. Some even have signals that go off at set temps.
Big R
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Re: Fermenter shape research?
I also have a lazer probe that I use on the outside. What I have done is taken readings during fermentation but at the end when I am getting ready to run the still and I draw the wash out I take a reading both directly from the wash when I first open it up and with the lazer to try to figure out the approx. difference. I realize this isn't an exact measurement as when I open it up the temps change slightly. But I am just trying to get an approx temp difference between the outside of the fermentation vessel and the actual temp of the fermentation. I also do my fermentation in a small bathroom with a small heater and temp control unit that regulates room temp. I have the heater facing the wash but at a distance of about 5'. I have taken outside temps at various locations because I was concerned about concentrated heat at one spot of the vessels where the heater was pointed.
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Re: Fermenter shape research?
I use the same type plastic barrel with my some of my fermentations.I never fill them all the way, but I'd like too, my boiler just isnt that big(6gal.)
I have thought about laying them down as well.
I seem to like the idea of using a conical but they are just too expensive.
I have thought about laying them down as well.
I seem to like the idea of using a conical but they are just too expensive.
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Re: Fermenter shape research?
I haven't had a chance to do anything with this yet. Space is kinda short right now to. But I have plans to clear out the space in my fermenting room (bedroom) to get on with the testing.
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Re: Fermenter shape research?
I also thought about building a shallow conical?
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Re: Fermenter shape research?
I have read several times that diameter should be greater than height. I have watched many videos of commercial distilleries that have very wide shallow fermenters that ferment out overnight. I don’t know the reasons or logic (and did not read the links on this page) It may be necessary for heat dispersion because they use so much yeast to get it done in twelve hours?
I have a tall skinny 15 gallon barrel that seems to work just fine. It does take over a week though.
I have a tall skinny 15 gallon barrel that seems to work just fine. It does take over a week though.
Re: Fermenter shape research?
it also seems iv read the more surface area more yeast,but cant be certain.
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Re: Fermenter shape research?
I do beleave it has a lot to do with heat. More surface area less heat.
The problem I may have is. One of my customers is using a new bucket. It's a 15 gal bucket built just like a regular 5 gal. But it has a rubber seal in the lid. I'm trying to score some from them. I won't be able to lay them on their sides. Like I can with these blue ones. But they will make doing grain ferments a lot easier. We will see.
The problem I may have is. One of my customers is using a new bucket. It's a 15 gal bucket built just like a regular 5 gal. But it has a rubber seal in the lid. I'm trying to score some from them. I won't be able to lay them on their sides. Like I can with these blue ones. But they will make doing grain ferments a lot easier. We will see.
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Re: Fermenter shape research?
did a bit of research...a shallow wide fermenter is better,
1) the yeast have more room to breath.
2)less heat
3)if open then it can displace sulphur dioxide better
4) less strain on yeast from pressure and co2
after saying this it is not going to make much difference with a 5 gallon ferment
but with 50 gallon and larger there can be as much as 40-50% faster ferments
with shallow fermenters.
1) the yeast have more room to breath.
2)less heat
3)if open then it can displace sulphur dioxide better
4) less strain on yeast from pressure and co2
after saying this it is not going to make much difference with a 5 gallon ferment
but with 50 gallon and larger there can be as much as 40-50% faster ferments
with shallow fermenters.
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Re: Fermenter shape research?
So my meesly 12 gal won't benefit from it? And was that all for open ferments?
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Re: Fermenter shape research?
first yeast does not like co2 so in a wide fermenter they have more room to avoid .
sort of like you trying to avoid farts in a small room at a beer bash.
open fermenters for the same reason, if co2 is displaced the yeast is happier.
also if deep then the pressure is much grater at bottom and they dont like that either.
with beer they can make different flavor profiles just by changing shape of fermenters.
a deep one will produce more esters,a shallow one less this is because of yeast stress.
a closed fermenter more esters, a open one less .
sort of like you trying to avoid farts in a small room at a beer bash.
open fermenters for the same reason, if co2 is displaced the yeast is happier.
also if deep then the pressure is much grater at bottom and they dont like that either.
with beer they can make different flavor profiles just by changing shape of fermenters.
a deep one will produce more esters,a shallow one less this is because of yeast stress.
a closed fermenter more esters, a open one less .
Re: Fermenter shape research?
Dnderhead, others,
I just heared an opposite theory. Relatively higher fermenters should be rated higher. The reasoning went like this: in a relative hig fermentation bucket, CO2 bubbles rising up travel a longer way, thus making for a better heat re-distribution & re-distribution of nutrients, etc.
No experiments to back this (or the oposite) up. Just stating what I heared & the theory behind it.
Odin.
I just heared an opposite theory. Relatively higher fermenters should be rated higher. The reasoning went like this: in a relative hig fermentation bucket, CO2 bubbles rising up travel a longer way, thus making for a better heat re-distribution & re-distribution of nutrients, etc.
No experiments to back this (or the oposite) up. Just stating what I heared & the theory behind it.
Odin.
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Re: Fermenter shape research?
I'll throw in my 2-cents here. I have two different 6.5 gal buckets, one type is about 11 in dia and 19 in tall, the other 13 in dia and 15 in tall. My ferments generally run 4.5 - 5 gal. My experience is that the shorter/larger dia buckets ferment dry a little quicker. I'll occasionally have as much as six ferments going at the same time, two tall, four short. The four short will consistently finish 1/2 to 1 day before the tall. When I want a long cool ferment (musts for brandies or meads) I always rack to a 5 gal carboy which really extends the ferment time. I have some mead working right now thats been 3 weeks (2 weeks in secondary) and still working.
Big R
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