The No Boil Corn Mashing Method

Production methods from starch to sugars.

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Re: The No Boil Corn Mashing Method

Post by rtalbigr »

WalkingWolf wrote:Thanks for the follow-up guys. I'm thinking maybe add a "lacto-soured" starter to an AG. Or, just letting some of the grain-bed from the AG keep aging and just adding the fermentable wash on top -- in much the same way an UJSSM is done. :idea: :?:
Interesting idea. That's what makes this hobby so wonderful, there are so many different things to experiment with.
Burbankbrewer wrote: So how much backset would you add to a mash of 60% corn, 20 % wheat & 20% distillers malt for a 13 gal mash?
I generally use 18-20% backset/total vol of liquid. I have gone as much as 25%, I wouldn't go any higher than that. That's a nice grain bill Burbank, it'll make a nice "soft" bourbon. You usin red or white wheat? I like red wheat (I've done a lot with malted red wheat), it's supposedly spicier. I have some 100% wheat (80% white, 20% malted red) whisky in a barrel right now. It's still got a few months to go.

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Re: The No Boil Corn Mashing Method

Post by johnny108 »

It might be a good thing you haven't picked up a Ph meter yet-
The probes are usually a porous glass bulb (drilled with a laser, I think), that, if touched by ANYTHING (a finger, or a particle from a bit of grain), can degrade it . They are also a real pain to maintain- they require calibration and storage liquids, and the storage liquid will grow algae, which, of course, ruins the probe.
If the probe can be replaced- it's gonna be more expensive- if not- then the whole Ph meter is ruined.
A better choice would be some indicating Ph paper. Maybe not as accurate- but- if your method is consistant- you don't really need a super accurate reading.
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Re: The No Boil Corn Mashing Method

Post by rtalbigr »

You're probably right Johnny. I'd probably drop it on the probe the second time I used it. Don't know how many hydrometers I've broken, good thing they're cheap :lol:
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Re: The No Boil Corn Mashing Method

Post by NcHooch »

I've noticed something recently while using this cook method ...
It seems like it's a lot more difficult to strain the wash after the ferment is complete

the last couple mashes I boiled 2 gallons of backset and did a 24 hr corn soak in a cooler.
then the added 2 more gallons of water and brought to 130 ...rested 30 mins.
then to 165, with a 30 min rest
then to 200, with a 30 min rest ....added some 6-row to thin it some here
then cooled to 150 and added the rest of the malt
...good conversion, and cooled to pitching temp by the next morning
After the ferment is complete, there seems to be a ton of fine material in the fermenter that clogs up the nylon strainer bag and makes separating the grain a bitch .

Honestly, not sure if the backset soak could be causing this , or the 3-step corn cook .
....thoughts?
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Re: The No Boil Corn Mashing Method

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NcHooch wrote:After the ferment is complete, there seems to be a ton of fine material in the fermenter that clogs up the nylon strainer bag and makes separating the grain a bitch .

Honestly, not sure if the backset soak could be causing this , or the 3-step corn cook .
....thoughts?
I did a ferment on the grain one time a good while ago and got exactly what you described. Had a bitch of a time trying to seperate, took me hours. So I no longer ferment on grain. However, no matter what method I have used to mash corn I still get this problem to some extent so I've just attributed it to the nature of corn. Using this method I haven't really noticed it being any worse.

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Re: The No Boil Corn Mashing Method

Post by rtalbigr »

I've started making some rye bourbon (5.75 lbs corn/4.5 lbs malted rye/ 0.75 lbs Canada Malting Distillers Malt) so I've started expermenting a little again with my corn mashing. I got this rice cooker/food steamer to make some Sake and just got to thinkin, what if I steamed my cracked corn before my backset soak? What I've worked out is soakin the cracked corn in cold water for about an hour and then steamin it for 30 minutes. It comes out pretty soft with just a little bit of hard left in the center. Once the boiled backset is added and soaked over night I can smash the pieces easily with my fingers. I've got my first mash usin this going right now (it's at the 200F rest) so I'll see if I get any better yields. I still have to cool it back down to 142F and add the malts and then do the alpha rest as well. I'll have an OG later today. I have a batch where I didn't use the steamed corn ready to ferment (I'm rehydrating yeast now) so I'll have somethin to make a direct comparison.

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Re: The No Boil Corn Mashing Method

Post by rtalbigr »

Well, steaming the cracked corn first didn't do anything to the OG. It came out the exactly the same. However, it did increase the final volume of the wort by about 18%. So I'm getting mort wort at the same OG. The ferments should be done tomorrow so I'll see if there's any differences there.

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Re: The No Boil Corn Mashing Method

Post by NcHooch »

BigR ,
Your steamer idea made me think of this plastic rice cooker that I have in the kitchen (somewhere) that you load with rice & water and microwave it for 15 minutes ....Hmmmmm .... makes great rice ... prolly make good grits and cracked corn too :wink:

I've been thinkin about makin a 100% corn mash using just cracked corn, and amylase...might try using the rice cooker on that
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Re: The No Boil Corn Mashing Method

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NcHooch wrote:BigR ,
Your steamer idea made me think of this plastic rice cooker that I have in the kitchen (somewhere) that you load with rice & water and microwave it for 15 minutes ....Hmmmmm .... makes great rice ... prolly make good grits and cracked corn too :wink:

I've been thinkin about makin a 100% corn mash using just cracked corn, and amylase...might try using the rice cooker on that
Hooch - I was think of doing the same thing just yesterday. It sounds like an interesting project, just to see what happens and what I get out of it. It'd be good to compare results. It'll be a couple a months before I can get to it though. This Rye bourbon I'm workin on now gonna take a while; my total grain bill is about 300 lbs.

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Re: The No Boil Corn Mashing Method

Post by Washashore »

I have a good sized pressure cooker---wonder how that would work on the corn?
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Re: The No Boil Corn Mashing Method

Post by rtalbigr »

Washashore wrote:I have a good sized pressure cooker---wonder how that would work on the corn?
I haven't read anything that I remember where anyone's tried it, but I have given it some thought, except I don't have a pressure cooker. I think it'd be worth a try just to see what happens. Anything that softens up the corn makes it easier to mash.

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Re: The No Boil Corn Mashing Method

Post by Tater »

rtalbigr wrote:
Washashore wrote:I have a good sized pressure cooker---wonder how that would work on the corn?
I haven't read anything that I remember where anyone's tried it, but I have given it some thought, except I don't have a pressure cooker. I think it'd be worth a try just to see what happens. Anything that softens up the corn makes it easier to mash.

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Re: The No Boil Corn Mashing Method

Post by rtalbigr »

Thx Tater, I remember reading that now.

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Re: The No Boil Corn Mashing Method

Post by rgarry »

I currently have no back set and have been reading some other post about pH Buffer 5.2. Was thinking of giving that a try to get going again. I'm itching to try nhooch's bourbon before it gets too hot here.
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Re: The No Boil Corn Mashing Method

Post by sizzlnchef 1 »

Hi all. I have 2 questions. (1) This is my first try at a non sugar wash and was wondering I have a 2 inch deep section of a white fine sediment on top the mash and was wondering if this is normal and what is it? (2) Can this mash be reused for a 2nd generation? As always thanks for the help.

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Re: The No Boil Corn Mashing Method

Post by rad14701 »

sizzlnchef 1 wrote:Hi all. I have 2 questions. (1) This is my first try at a non sugar wash and was wondering I have a 2 inch deep section of a white fine sediment on top the mash and was wondering if this is normal and what is it? (2) Can this mash be reused for a 2nd generation? As always thanks for the help.

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(1) That be yeast...
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Re: The No Boil Corn Mashing Method

Post by sizzlnchef 1 »

When I do the 2nd generation do I add Backset or just water? Also how many times can I reuse the mash? I am doing a 4 gallon wash.

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Re: The No Boil Corn Mashing Method

Post by Tippet »

grateful to find anyone taking time to write up all grain experience. I'm particularly interested in accounts of success without using commercially prepared yeasts or enymes, but this is still very helpful.
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Re: The No Boil Corn Mashing Method

Post by Bodhammer »

I saw here http://homedistiller.org/grain that sulfuric acid is a no,no for changing the PH. As a homebrewer, I have used 5-Star food grade phosphoric acid to do PH adjustments. Is there any issue with using phosphoric acid for changing a distilling mash PH?

Never mind - found my own answer here: http://www.artisandistilling.org/ARTISA ... G1.0.0.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

The reduction of the pH-value of mashes is usually achieved through
mineral and stable fruit acids. Besides the already mentioned sulfuric
acid which is mostly used in Germany acid combinations such as
phosphoric acid/butyric acid or malic acid/lactic acid have proven
valuable. An additional advantage of the phosphoric acid/butyric acid
mixture commonly used in Switzerland is the fact that phosphoric acid
also provides a nourishing ground for yeasts and thus promotes a speedy
fermentation. The acid combinations mentioned above are less
problematic to use than concentrated sulfuric acid which is extremely
corrosive and poses some hazard in its use.
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Re: The No Boil Corn Mashing Method

Post by Lukemanley89 »

I have a 55gollon food grade drum 50 pounds of cracked corn 50 pounds of sugar and pleanty of yeast can someone help me put a recipe together with the ingredients that I have?
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Re: The No Boil Corn Mashing Method

Post by Prairiepiss »

Lukemanley89 wrote:I have a 55gollon food grade drum 50 pounds of cracked corn 50 pounds of sugar and pleanty of yeast can someone help me put a recipe together with the ingredients that I have?
To find the UJSSM recipe. Uncle Jesse simple sour mash. It's in the tried and true recipe section. If your wanting to use corn and sugar for a sugarhead wash. This thread is about actually mashing the corn. With no sugar.
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Re: The No Boil Corn Mashing Method

Post by ELT »

What if you were to boil the corn nice and soft, cool it to 155F and then add a few pounds of milled malted barley for an hour which has tons of alpha amylase and should convert all the starch to sugar much the same as when making an all grain batch of beer? Corn's starch shouldn't be much different. How does corn differ from barley in this process once you soften it?
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Re: The No Boil Corn Mashing Method

Post by Dnderhead »

"What if you were to boil the corn nice and soft,"
not quite that simple but yes its called mashing.
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Re: The No Boil Corn Mashing Method

Post by ELT »

Dnderhead wrote:"What if you were to boil the corn nice and soft,"
not quite that simple but yes its called mashing.
U r correct it does take 2 steps... LOL

Put corn in water
Turn on heat

:thumbup:
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Re: The No Boil Corn Mashing Method

Post by Prairiepiss »

ELT wrote:
Dnderhead wrote:"What if you were to boil the corn nice and soft,"
not quite that simple but yes its called mashing.
U r correct it does take 2 steps... LOL

Put corn in water
Turn on heat

:thumbup:
You missed the hardest step.
Stir the crap out of it so it doesn't burn.

One of the reasons for this thread. So you don't need to do all that pita
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Re: The No Boil Corn Mashing Method

Post by ELT »

What if you mashed it in a mashtun with a proper false bottom and RIMS recirc setup with automated temp control? Would the results be equivalent to mashing barley or wheat? Would 155 for 60 mins be an average conversion period?
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Re: The No Boil Corn Mashing Method

Post by Dnderhead »

the problems most have is cooking the corn,,5-10 gallon of corn mush can git a be overwhelming. and it does not like to go threw a false bottom.
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Re: The No Boil Corn Mashing Method

Post by ELT »

OK - so the issue is the equipment setup most folks have. with the false bottom you don't want the corn to go through it. Once you boil it in say a 25 SS pot to soften it you transfer the entire contents into another 25 gallon pot that has a false bottom. then add the malted barley and more water that is calculated to yield X gallons after mash absorption. You recirc it with a pump tied in below the false bottom through a RIMS device (1500 watt low density water heater with an automatic temperature controller monitoring mash temp) to maintain exactly 155F in the mash while constantly recirculating the liquid to ensure even temp. Hold for one hour while the starches convert. Then pump the liquid out from below the false bottom SLOWLY so as not to channel into your Boil Kettle (or in this case your fermentation bucket as you don't need a full one hour boil and hop addition).

With a whirlpool setup and the RIMS rig (propane burner below the MLT for additional heat if 1500 watts isn't enough for a boil) you could boil the corn in the Mashtun above the false bottom with no chance of scorching it also (so you can skip the transfer step).

This is the exact procedure for all grain beer brewing via a Brutus 10/25 style setup. My question is will it work with corn mash and if not what is different? I know one difference is that corn is an adjunct grain and does not contain enough alpha amalyse to convert it's own starch to sugar - thats why you add a good 2 row barley that has lots of extra to perform this function for the corn (or wheat or oats or whatever adjunct you add to the "beer").

In the near future I will attempt this a post a thread - doing my research for now to learn from the members of this forum so I don't jump down the same rabbit holes!
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Re: The No Boil Corn Mashing Method

Post by Prairiepiss »

You are completely missing the point. Corn is not like other brewing grains. It turns to a thick solid gelatiness mass. That doesn't allow for good sparging. So it doesn't want to go through the false bottom. You have obviously looked into or are brewing. And I have even seen in the brewing world of where they say the same things. High corn amounts is just a pain.

I would like to suggest you take this conversation to another thread. Because this thread is about another way to do it. And this conversation has taken it way off track. You would get better responses if you start your own thread asking this question. There has also been plenty of threads about this subject. Maybe you could find one more suited for it. Not trying to be a jerk. Just trying to keep this thread on track. So when others read it. They don't get cornfused. And so when others are looking for the info you are asking about. They will have an easier time finding it.
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Re: The No Boil Corn Mashing Method

Post by ELT »

Have patience with us newer folk, Young GrassWasher. I feel the force within you - I too would like to harness and understand it. 8)

I now see what my question regarding the No Boil Corn Mash comes from - not understanding that corn must be gelatinized at a temperature above standard mash temperatures in order to unwind the starch molecules to allow for the starch to sugar conversion. My misunderstanding is that this procedure is NOT a different way to perform the conversion in general, but a different way to perform it and avoid a gelatinous mass while in the process. Us ex-brewers are used to using flaked corn which is already gelatinized and ready for mashing.

My next question was going to be what is the difference if I run the corn through my Monster Mill (the answer being you still have to gelatinize it). Would this No Boil procedure be complicated by grinding the corn?

BTW thanks OP for this method and the explanation!
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