The No Boil Corn Mashing Method

Production methods from starch to sugars.

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Re: The No Boil Corn Mashing Method

Postby Dnderhead » Tue Jun 18, 2013 10:20 am

first understand ,grain is not just a capsule of starch .its more like a capsule of encapsulated starch.that is the hall of the grain holds starch that is encapsulated.
you mite thank of grain like a egg carton ,you can take the eggs out of the carton (grinding grain) but the eggs still need to be broken open ,with grain this is done by cooking,if you put grain in water the starch will just swell up so much and sit there ,by heating the starch adsorbs more water than it can hold and burst open.different grains needs different temperature to do this.depending how heavy a "shell" it has. corn/maze has one of the tougher ones and takes 180f/83c to do this.now when this happens you end up with a big mass of goo.sort of a cross between wall paper paste and sawdust .some things can be done to help prevent this .
like premalting,presoaking etc..now even after the enzymes have done their work its still thick and mixed with a bunch of protein and halls that plug up a screen.now this is like trying to separate corn syrup out of sawdust.
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Re: The No Boil Corn Mashing Method

Postby rtalbigr » Tue Jun 18, 2013 11:17 am

ELT wrote:
My next question was going to be what is the difference if I run the corn through my Monster Mill (the answer being you still have to gelatinize it). Would this No Boil procedure be complicated by grinding the corn?



I frequently run cracked corn through my mill to reduce the particle size and it does make the No Boil Method more efficient. I don't grind it to a meal however.

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Re: The No Boil Corn Mashing Method

Postby tom sawyer » Mon Dec 02, 2013 8:15 am

I did a bourbon mash this weekend and thought I'd share my experiences since its not too far from this method.

I put 9lb of cracked corn in my 10gal cooler mashtun (see dennybrew.com for an example). I boiled 4gal of water and added this to the corn and shut the lid. The cooler is a marine type that insulates well, I left this cook for 2hr with a few stirs and by the end you could see the corn was gelatinizing nicely. It thickened up but was still stirrable with a stiff metal spoon. Over the time the temp dropped into the 170's. I next added enough water to bring the temp to 160F, then added 9lb of crushed distillers malt and two big handfuls of rice hulls to help things run off. This mix settled at 154F, in good mashing range Then I added another 3gal of water at 155F to thin the mash a bit. I stirred well then closed the lid and let it mash overnight, probably 12hr total. In the morning it was still warm, and had settled out. I ran this off into a kettle without stirring first, and then sparged with enough hot water (3gal) to give me a total of about 8gal of wort. I added 1/2gal of backset from the last batch and boiled it down to about 5.5gal, that took a couple hours. I let the wort cool overnight and then ran off 5gal of wort onto my yeast cake from the last batch. The sp gr of the wort was 1.092, this is about what I expected from mashing the 18lb of grain. I anticipate this will ferment down to 1.015 and give me close to 10% ABV in the beer, right where I want it. Much higher and I think you get a lot more fusels and esters.

I was really pleased with this mash. I've tried gelatinizing corn other ways and its always been difficult. This ran off like a champ with no stuck sparge.
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Re: The No Boil Corn Mashing Method

Postby Ack » Wed Dec 04, 2013 4:48 pm

I've wondered about running off from my mash tun rather than just fermenting on the grain. I always thought the mash would simply plug up my SS braid. Sounds like adding the 9lbs grain + hulls is enough to deal with that problem? Cool I gotta try this. And 100% corn as well? Nice - definitely gotta try this!

Has anyone tried the acidic pre-soak with citric or some other acid type rather than backset? Thought I'd ask before trying it myself... maybe I should shoot for ph 4 or 5? Maybe 4.5...

Big R thanks so much for posting your method I cant wait to try this!
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Re: The No Boil Corn Mashing Method

Postby tom sawyer » Wed Dec 11, 2013 11:45 am

No not 100% corn, 50:50 corn and distillers malt.

I've done it both ways and I can say that running the wort off the mash first is preferable to fermenting on the grain. You wind up with a lot less volume and the mess is less. I don't know if it has an affect on flavor though.
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Re: The No Boil Corn Mashing Method

Postby Ack » Wed Dec 11, 2013 12:07 pm

50/50 right yes duh. Had to re-read that! I've not fermented any corn mash except on the grain so im definitely going to try this. Its pretty tasty on the grain though so be interested to see how it turns out this way...
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Re: The No Boil Corn Mashing Method

Postby NcHooch » Thu Dec 26, 2013 2:30 pm

tom sawyer wrote:I did a bourbon mash this weekend and thought I'd share my experiences since its not too far from this method.

I put 9lb of cracked corn in my 10gal cooler mashtun (see dennybrew.com for an example). I boiled 4gal of water and added this to the corn and shut the lid. The cooler is a marine type that insulates well, I left this cook for 2hr with a few stirs and by the end you could see the corn was gelatinizing nicely. It thickened up but was still stirrable with a stiff metal spoon. Over the time the temp dropped into the 170's. I next added enough water to bring the temp to 160F, then added 9lb of crushed distillers malt and two big handfuls of rice hulls to help things run off. This mix settled at 154F, in good mashing range Then I added another 3gal of water at 155F to thin the mash a bit. I stirred well then closed the lid and let it mash overnight, probably 12hr total. In the morning it was still warm, and had settled out. I ran this off into a kettle without stirring first, and then sparged with enough hot water (3gal) to give me a total of about 8gal of wort. I added 1/2gal of backset from the last batch and boiled it down to about 5.5gal, that took a couple hours. I let the wort cool overnight and then ran off 5gal of wort onto my yeast cake from the last batch. The sp gr of the wort was 1.092, this is about what I expected from mashing the 18lb of grain. I anticipate this will ferment down to 1.015 and give me close to 10% ABV in the beer, right where I want it. Much higher and I think you get a lot more fusels and esters.

I was really pleased with this mash. I've tried gelatinizing corn other ways and its always been difficult. This ran off like a champ with no stuck sparge.



TS, you might wanna shoot for a lower mash temp next time , something like 145-150 will minimize the non-fermentable sugars and give you a lower FG, and higher ABV. ;)
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Re: The No Boil Corn Mashing Method

Postby KatoFong » Tue Jan 07, 2014 3:16 pm

Just want to say a quick thank you for this thread. I am about to embark on my first bourbon after years of all-grain home brewing, and I think this thread has saved me from cooking a potful of Evil Corn Mess™. I'm still searching around on the site to nail down the specific method of mashing corn, but was wondering if anyone has ever tried steaming the corn, rather than boiling. I do this with rice when I make sake, and it has the effect of gelatinizing the grains while also letting them keep some cohesion so you don't have a terrible slurry at the end of it.
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Re: The No Boil Corn Mashing Method

Postby pale horse » Thu Feb 27, 2014 11:40 am

Can anyone tell me what back set & sparge are? I would like to not have to cook mash for a long time if I can get away with it.
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Re: The No Boil Corn Mashing Method

Postby Grey_Meadow » Wed Mar 05, 2014 6:21 am

I'm just a rookie here and I can appreciate how difficult it can be to understand all of the discussion. However, you do need to read more, because these are both fairly common terms and don't forget to check the WIKI on the parent site. http://wiki.homedistiller.org.

Backset From Distillers Wiki
The liquid left in the still after distillation has completed. Essentially backset is a weak, acidic beer which has been boiled for a number of hours. Backset is used to create sour mash whiskies.

www.thefreedictionary.com
Sparge (spärj)
tr.v. sparged, sparg·ing, sparg·es
1. To spray or sprinkle.
2. To introduce air or gas into (a liquid).
In this context: after you have mashed (converted the starches to sugar), your grain(s) either corn, barley, wheat, rye, etc. you have a lot sugar trapped in and on the grain. By spraying or sprinkling (SPARGING) the grains with hot water (! 170F) you can wash or extract these trapped sugars into your liquid to be fermented thereby increasing your yield.

Hope this helps and keep reading.

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Re: The No Boil Corn Mashing Method

Postby pale horse » Mon Mar 10, 2014 11:01 am

May I ask what backset is? Is it the left over when done distilling your heart and tails?
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Re: The No Boil Corn Mashing Method

Postby Jimbo » Mon Mar 10, 2014 11:04 am

its the stuff left over in the still from teh first run. Its low pH so helps mashing and fermentation of high raw grain recipes. Use in place of 10-20$ of the total water volume.
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Re: The No Boil Corn Mashing Method

Postby JudgeBot » Sun Oct 19, 2014 7:39 pm

Have you checked out this video on youtube?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rtnboJ3Kxeo
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Re: The No Boil Corn Mashing Method

Postby ttree68 » Mon Jan 12, 2015 12:14 pm

Wondering about your thoughts on if you invert the rest temps to avoid heating up mash with corn - we're using a 5500w element so we'd rather avoid putting heat to the mash once the corn is added. Do you think its important to build up the temp to get full gelatinization? So we've started at 200F then done a few rests down from there - adding alpha at 175 for 90 minutes and an amyloglucosidase at 145 for another rest. This weekend's mash Im going to soak corn at 140F overnight before starting the mash.

Thanks for your post and continued input - much appreciated.
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Re: The No Boil Corn Mashing Method

Postby FrancisTet » Tue Jun 30, 2015 4:58 am

Maybe this is a dumb question but this method applies to corn only and not flaked maize since the flaked is already cooked? I can just use the 150F for 2hrs in mash tun method?
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Re: The No Boil Corn Mashing Method

Postby joemama » Sun Dec 06, 2015 1:38 pm

Tried this method out and had some problems.

Here are my notes:
12lb cracked corn + 1 lb 2-row + 2 gal boiling backset + 1 gal water in cooler for 2 days.
5 gal water + 2 tsp gypsum to a boil, stirred in corn/backset mixture. Brought temp to 150f. Add 1lb 2-row and rested 30 minutes.

Heated to 175f , rest 45 minutes. Heated to 200f, rest 45 minutes. Stirred often.

Cooled to 150f with immersion chiller, added 4lb 2-row, 1lb malted rye. Mashed overnight.

Drained and sparged using an additional ~2gal water at 170f (using brewing false bottom and about a pound of rice hulls to help with lautering). Boiled for a while to get down to 6.5gal wash at 1.080 SG. Measured efficiency 84%.

The efficiency was much better then my first run, where I just boiled the corn for about an hour, but the backset smelled like puke. REALLY smelled like puke. I collected the backset from the stripping run of my first batch. I use a beer keg pot still with a copper column and liebig condenser. After the stripping run on the first batch, the still and backset were really hot and I left the backset in the keg overnight, with the opening covered by a cap. The next day I poured the backset into some milk jugs and froze them until ready to use in the next batch.

I didn't smell the puke smell at this point, but as soon as I boiled the backset for the presoak on batch 2, the puke smell was strong. I ended up with a little bit of scorching on the bottom of the mash tun, I think that was just because I was too aggressive with the propane when heating. I never detected any burnt smell or taste in the wash or distillate, but the puke smell made it through the stripping run, so I dumped it.

Did I get some kind of infection in the backset I used? The batch the backset was collected from had no problems.
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Re: The No Boil Corn Mashing Method

Postby drmiller100 » Sun Dec 06, 2015 7:10 pm

joemama wrote:Heated to 175f , rest 45 minutes. Heated to 200f, rest 45 minutes. Stirred often.

C


how did you do this? I have never been able to heat the corn/water mix up to 200 degrees. It turns to oatmeal and just burns the bottom.

adding the corn to boiling water, chopping the heat, and insulating is what I've had best success with.
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Re: The No Boil Corn Mashing Method

Postby joemama » Sun Dec 06, 2015 7:40 pm

drmiller100 wrote:
joemama wrote:Heated to 175f , rest 45 minutes. Heated to 200f, rest 45 minutes. Stirred often.

C


how did you do this? I have never been able to heat the corn/water mix up to 200 degrees. It turns to oatmeal and just burns the bottom.

adding the corn to boiling water, chopping the heat, and insulating is what I've had best success with.


I don't crush the cracked corn, I just use it as it comes from the feed store, so when I heat it, it get a little thicker, but the water doesn't turn to a gravy-like consistency until it sits at higher temps for quite a long time. To avoid burning, I use a false bottom and recirculate using a march pump, which seems to suspend the corn at least somewhat especially before it really gets extracted while the kernels still hold up. The false bottom does get clogged, and more so as you move along in the process and the corn gets softer, so I have to watch and use my mash paddle to scrape the false bottom clean when it looks like the flow is about to stop. I also heat slowly. Not ridiculously slowly, but nowhere near the max output of a hurricane burner. it should take about 20 minutes to go from ~140 or so to 200. It's really a pain compared to working with just malted barley for beer.

If I wasn't using a false bottom, I'd stir often while heating, heat slowly, make sure you're scraping the bottom of the pot. I use the false bottom because I don't want to ferment on the grain. You either have to separate grain before or after fermentation, and separating after fermentation sounds like a disgusting mess to me. Even separating with a strainer or bag before fermentation sounds like a mess compared to using the false bottom to separate. Even if the false bottom is a pain with clogging, I'd rather mess with that than try to strain the grains out of the liquid manually.

If you add the corn to boiling water, insulate and let it drop on its own, do you get to the gravy-like consistency in the liquid? I think that might not be long enough at high temp to get sufficient gelatinization and get a good extraction of starch from the corn.
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Re: The No Boil Corn Mashing Method

Postby drmiller100 » Sun Dec 06, 2015 8:17 pm

joemama wrote:If you add the corn to boiling water, insulate and let it drop on its own, do you get to the gravy-like consistency in the liquid? I think that might not be long enough at high temp to get sufficient gelatinization and get a good extraction of starch from the corn.


yup. from memory, I stuck a thermometer in it and it took a couple of hours to drop to 170 or whatever the magic temp was I'd add the alpha amylase and stir. insulate. let it sit more.
145 add beta.
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Re: The No Boil Corn Mashing Method

Postby OldManP » Mon Dec 28, 2015 6:11 am

I understand this is a no boil mash thread, but has anyone made a large initial mash, then boiled the mash after sparging to reduce the overall volume a little and increase the OG like beer brewing. I understand this would not reduce the volume a great deal, nor would you want to increase the OG too much so you don't stress the yeast, but just curious. Sounds like there's enough homebrewers here that could weigh-in. It's either boil before the ferment or after...wasn't sure if there was a distinct advantage with either method.

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Re: The No Boil Corn Mashing Method

Postby Monkeyman88 » Tue Jan 12, 2016 1:11 am

Everyone boils after fermentation.
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Re: The No Boil Corn Mashing Method

Postby OldManP » Wed Jan 13, 2016 2:08 pm

Well played monkeyman...
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Re: The No Boil Corn Mashing Method

Postby renn151 » Wed Jan 18, 2017 12:21 pm

jake_leg wrote:Thanks BigR for this write up because I have been stumbling in the same direction without getting all the way there.

There aren't all that many differences between what you are doing and what I did with far less success, which makes it especially instructive. I did an acid soak, neutralized to pH 5,
added alpha amylase, heated slowly to 180-190 F
and held it there for a while, then left to cool to 150 F, added malt, rested overnight, cooled to pitching temperature, and added glucoamylase with the yeast if the iodine test was red. I think my mistake was not to heat it higher, to 200 F. I don't think all the starch made it into the solution at 180 F. I got good conversion (iodine test clear) but low yield.

I believe credit for the acid soak goes to Pintoshine - it's a variant on the lactic presouring technique he wrote about. I use micronized maize and the stuff just falls to bits in the acid. What grind are you using? Perhaps because I was using micronized corn I didn't need alpha in with the acid soak. I would have thought backset at about pH 4 would be too sour for it to do much good but it sounds like you have tried it both ways.


Alpha Amylase has a working temp between 142(maybe lower but really slow) and 165 degrees. If you went above that you neutralized the Alpha. I keep my conversion temp at 148 and it liquefies nicely over about a 2.5 hour period where the starch test comes out red.
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Re: The No Boil Corn Mashing Method

Postby amdamgraham » Fri Feb 03, 2017 2:56 pm

I cooked up a 100% corn mash the other night using High-Temp Alpha and I can attest to how much it has eased my process. I have done AG batches exclusively (and painfully at times) and have had rough results when it comes to OG - very low. Also, the constant stirring of corn-crete to avoid scorching was brutal. So I followed the advice of DerWoo and others and tried High-temp Alpha and the early results are dramatic. I cook direct on an outdoor gas burner, no diffuser, so I am paranoid about scorching. The Alpha made all the difference. I heated the water to about 165 then added the fine milled corn. I stirred constantly. As expected it got much thicker in about 10-15 minutes. At that time I added 1 teaspoon High-temp alpha and within 30 seconds the porridge thinned back to a watery soup. Stirring was a breeze. Also my thermometer stayed clean, not covered in porridge. I held the temp at about 182 for 1 hour, let it cool down to 146 and added 1 tsp Beta Amylase. I didn't bother checking for any obvious effects at this point because my job was to wrap up the pot in insulation to give the Beta a chance to work. I unwrapped after about 3 hours then let it sit overnight to cool to 90F. At that temp my OG was 1.047 and the consistency was much soupier than my prior malted grain conversion attempts. I could actually get a clean dose of liquid for my refractometer to gauge OG. So, 1.047 may not yank your chain but I am expecting high conversion and a lower FG. Stay tuned.

Ingredients
10lbs corn - fine ground
12 gallons water
High Temp Alpha amylase
regular temp beta amylase.
DADY pitched at 90F.
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Re: The No Boil Corn Mashing Method

Postby Due51 » Mon Feb 06, 2017 1:01 pm

I'm attempting this recipe right now (double the original quantity).
14lbs cracked corn + 8lbs 6-row + 2lbs malted rye + 2lbs sacrificial 6-row.
I soaked the corn in 3gallons hot back set + 2 gallons of water for the initial 152* steeping. I added the enzymes, sacrificial grain, and did the proper heat up and rests.

My issue is that I use steamhead to heat/cook my mash and that adds an extra amount of water (which I don't know how to calculate just yet, other than pour out my boiler and compare what's left to what I put in.) I just added the malted 6-row and am half way through the two hour mash.

After the 2 hours, I'll pull off the blankets and insulation, cool the wort to under 140, add the rye, let that set for an hour, then cool to 122 and add my second enzyme.
EDIT: After adding the 6-row and letting set for 2 hours at 146, I've got good conversion based on an iodine test.
Now I've cooled to under 140 and added the 2lbs of rye. I'll let it set for an hour.

I'll drain, sparge, then run a few gallons of hot water through the grain to get some washback for future mashings.
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Re: The No Boil Corn Mashing Method

Postby ShineRunner » Mon Feb 06, 2017 3:25 pm

Due51 wrote:My issue is that I use steamhead to heat/cook my mash and that adds an extra amount of water (which I don't know how to calculate just yet, other than pour out my boiler and compare what's left to what I put in.) I just added the malted 6-row and am half way through the two hour mash.


I've just recently started steaming, but I read somewhere that a good estimate is 15% of your initial volume will be added. My first batch was 20 gallons and took 3.5 gallons, or 17.5%. But I forgot to wrap it in a blanket initially so I lost a lot of heat out the sides. My second steamer mash was smaller and I wrapped up the barrel with a blanket and it was almost exactly at 15%, so I'd say that's a somewhat accurate way to guess ahead of time. But yes, I still drain at the end to compare how much water was converted to steam.

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Re: The No Boil Corn Mashing Method

Postby Due51 » Mon Feb 06, 2017 3:46 pm

ShineRunner wrote:
I've just recently started steaming, but I read somewhere that a good estimate is 15% of your initial volume will be added. My first batch was 20 gallons and took 3.5 gallons, or 17.5%. But I forgot to wrap it in a blanket initially so I lost a lot of heat out the sides. My second steamer mash was smaller and I wrapped up the barrel with a blanket and it was almost exactly at 15%, so I'd say that's a somewhat accurate way to guess ahead of time. But yes, I still drain at the end to compare how much water was converted to steam.

SR

I just emptied the boiler. I put 5 gallons in and got 4 gallons out. That brings my total liquid to 3g backset + 2g pre-soak water+ 6g cook water + 1gallon cold washback + 1 gallon steamed distilled - whatever evaporated = ~13gallons. I'm waiting for the wort to cool so I can drain and see how much fermentable beer I have. I still have to sparge the grain too.
Last edited by Due51 on Tue Feb 07, 2017 1:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The No Boil Corn Mashing Method

Postby Due51 » Mon Feb 06, 2017 5:39 pm

I ended up with 8 gallons of 1.052. The mash was still trickling through the spigot and I could have probably got another gallon out of it, but time was adding up. This is the 3rd day in a row spending time on this mash.

I ran a few more gallons of hot water through mash and will let that trickle out for my washback. That should give me about 4 gallons of 1.010, which is a good start for the next mash.
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Re: The No Boil Corn Mashing Method

Postby casper the Irish » Tue Feb 07, 2017 5:02 pm

It would be good to learn more of how a backset presoak works. Of course, Yeast likes a pH below 5.5. I think an acid soak may also prevent infections. There are pathogens that survive up to 200° so backset helps with no-boil.

Hot rolled (flaked) grain is already partly converted starch to sugars. (but not all flaked is steam heated). There must still be starch because it does need sacrificial malt rest before heating to release more starch. Cracked corn usually needs boil cooking to release starches. Rye corn and barley each have their own gelatinate and saccharifific temperature rests. And malt enzymes work best in a narrow pH (5.0-5.7) and temperature range below 162° for Alpha, 150° max for Beta. Above that they are denatured. But below this, surely the enzymes work, and starches release albeit slowly.
So if we don't heat flaked grains above their saccharification ranges (corn 172° wheat 152°, barley 145°, or rye 142°)
ferment on grain, theres plenty of time conversion at fermentation temperatures?

I tried this. I hit a big problem discovered by using a pH meter. I added flaked corn to hot water with some sacrificial malt, steam cooked to 175° (why 200°?) allowed to cool for more malt at 156°-148° for an hour occasional stirring.
Allowed to cool BUT around 120° pH began to fall rapidly.
it fell to pH3.6

This should have been the easiest No Boil Mashing Method. If only I can lick the rapid acids. Which of these steps (or other) do you think I need to do:

1. Presoak 24hrs in hot backset.
2. Instead of cooling from hot I will steam heat up through all the traditional rests, THEN
3. crash cool to mash temp, and crash cool to pitching temp
4. try heating to 200° To mash out and sterilise. OR
5. Filter and sparge to boil the wort.
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Re: The No Boil Corn Mashing Method

Postby aircarbonarc » Wed Feb 08, 2017 2:05 am

I found this worked great with cracked corn and is a very efficient way of using waste heat from a big stripping run. I was pouring 5 gal hot backset over 20lbs corn, and mixing with a mud mixer and drill until it turned to a thick acidic corn porridge. At about 160f i was adding 6lbs of malt to thin and sweeten up the porridge. Let it sit overnight and then the next day it was added to about 4 gallons of boiling water in my Mash tun and mixed up a bit more with my mud mixer. When the temp dropped enough about 8lbs of malt is added, mixed and left to rest. Ill first collect about 5-7 gallons of wort and ill sparge with another 5-6gal, i just use brew bags and no false bottom to deal with the grain. My goal is to collect about 12+gal of wort with a gravity of 1.077-80ish at mid 7%, usually has been consistent. I used to like using less malt but i found it was more challenging to strain the wort, and there wasn't much of a flavor difference if i used more malt. I have also found adding a bit of citric acid or just any food grade acid additive will work if you dont have any hot backset.
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