Trying to make 100% rye

Production methods from starch to sugars.

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Ringo
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Trying to make 100% rye

Post by Ringo » Sun Mar 24, 2013 7:16 am

I am trying to make %100 rye. This is my first all grain attempt, and I am looking for comments and tutoring. Here is my recipe for a 10 gallon batch:

1. Heat 10 gallons water to 125 F.
2. Mix in 14 lbs. cracked unmalted rye. Rest at 120F for 30 mins.
3. Add 2 lb. cracked malted rye and 2t amylase powder. Raised temp to 150F.
4. Rest at 150F for about 45 mins.
5. Raise temp to 190F.
6. Rest for about 3 hrs. Temp is now back to 150F.
7. At 150F, add 2 lbs cracked rye malt and 3t amylase powder. Still not passing iodine test. Insulated overnight.
8. 8 hrs later- temp still at 150F. Iodine test passed.
9. SG is only 1.040, or 5% potential alcohol.

Question #1 - What do you think of my recipe and yield? Seems low to me.
Thanks all!

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Re: Trying to make 100% rye

Post by Ringo » Sun Mar 24, 2013 7:46 am

One more question:
What yield should I expect from 10 gals. @ 1.040?
Thanks again.

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Re: Trying to make 100% rye

Post by oliver90owner » Sun Mar 24, 2013 8:02 am

About 5%.

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Re: Trying to make 100% rye

Post by bellybuster » Sun Mar 24, 2013 8:33 am

I only come up with 1.032 for your recipe (rye has average PPG of 34), was there added ingredients? I'd really like to do an all rye

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Re: Trying to make 100% rye

Post by Odin » Sun Mar 24, 2013 8:47 am

Use like 1 kilo of rye and count on like 4 liters of water per that kilo. It seems you are a bit low on total rye. And you are low on malted rye. Dunno the DP on malted rye, but I can easily imagine you have to go more like 50/50. Or even all malted rye, because that doesn't gel up so much.

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Re: Trying to make 100% rye

Post by Ringo » Sun Mar 24, 2013 9:04 am

Oliver, I got the 5%. I was really asking how much finished product I should expect from that.

Belly, my recipe is as posted. According to you, then, I got a really good extract? That's what I'm trying to learn here. Is that the best I can expcet from all Rye? Because mt goal here is to work one recipe and really get it down. Then I will move on to different grains. I am starting with all rye because that's my taste.

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Re: Trying to make 100% rye

Post by Ringo » Sun Mar 24, 2013 9:06 am

Odin, yeah, it's pretty thick. So you're saying that malted rye would make a different consistency?

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Re: Trying to make 100% rye

Post by Odin » Sun Mar 24, 2013 9:11 am

Yes, and you need lower temps.

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Re: Trying to make 100% rye

Post by Ringo » Sun Mar 24, 2013 9:14 am

Odin, thanks. Could you please be a little more specific?
What specifically do you mean by lower temps, and why?
What is the difference using malted vs unmalted rye? Obviously I can get unmalted much cheaper. Is the difference just in the consistency,or is there a difference also in flavor and yield?

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Re: Trying to make 100% rye

Post by rad14701 » Sun Mar 24, 2013 9:15 am

If you want good 100% rye mash then why not malt 100% of the rye...??? :think: Sure would make the entire process a lot easier... :idea:

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Re: Trying to make 100% rye

Post by bellybuster » Sun Mar 24, 2013 9:21 am

BINGO!!!!! +1 Rad

Ringo, as far as I can tell you got more points out of the rye than are available, that's why I was asking about added ingredients. Mind you, you could have high PPG rye ???

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Re: Trying to make 100% rye

Post by Odin » Sun Mar 24, 2013 9:22 am

... and would give you a single malted rye whiskey. Bit fruitier, bit more complex in taste.

No gelling up, no need to boil. Single infusion will work.

Edit: posting at the same time as the poster before me. OP: please do some reading up on AG and DP, please.

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Re: Trying to make 100% rye

Post by Ringo » Sun Mar 24, 2013 9:30 am

Well, Rad, for starters, I can get 50#s of good organic unmalted rye for $34. The same amount of malted rye is about $100. But again, I am learning. I am still wondering what the differences are to me in terms of flavor and efficiency/finished quantity, and not just price.
Thanks.

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Re: Trying to make 100% rye

Post by MitchyBourbon » Sun Mar 24, 2013 9:44 am

I agree Odin,

18 lbs for 10 gallons is a tad low.

18 * 0.034 / 10 gal = 0.061 sg at 100 % efficiency. Since 100 efficiency is not likely...

1.0 + (0.061 * 0.75) = 1.045 sg.

I think that's a little low. I would add 2 - 4 lbs more rye. Also, the diastatic power is too low. Malted rye has a DP of 62 per lb. Each lb of grain in you recipe needs 30, minimum. This means that an all rye can only have a max 50% unmalted rye without added enzymes. Which I see that you did use. However, I don't know why you would raise the temp in step 5 to 190 f. This will denature you enzymes, no reason to do this, even though you added more.

With the added enzymes you probably have enough DP, but if you had used all malted rye there would be no need to add enzymes.
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Re: Trying to make 100% rye

Post by Odin » Sun Mar 24, 2013 9:58 am

Hi Mitchy,

I didn't see the enzymes ... but now that I do ... my experience is far from great with those enzymes. Very difficult to get a good conversion. I think going 50/50 would be a better idea. Or go 70 to 80% unmalted rye and 20 to 30% malted 6 row barley. But all malted rye would be easiest.

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Re: Trying to make 100% rye

Post by Ringo » Sun Mar 24, 2013 10:03 am

This is all great advice. I think I am even learning something! My mash is cooling now, and according to bellybuster, it sounds like I got as much out of it as I can expect with this recipe. So I will go ahead and pitch my yeast and let her rip.
For my next batch, I suppose I will spend 3x as much and make all malt. And I will add a few pounds as suggested. Then at least I can do a taste comparison to really see the difference myself. Actually I think it's a good learning tool - side by side recipes.
Why 190F? Not sure. Someone was giving me advice and I may have misunderstood them. I guess you're telling me that 150F was enough?

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Re: Trying to make 100% rye

Post by Odin » Sun Mar 24, 2013 10:10 am

You will want to cook up the unmalted rye. Going towards 100 C. In steps. Then let it cool and pitch malted whatever in such a way that you get a temp of 63 C. Try to keep it there for some time, let it cool slowly, add yeast when temp is under 25 degrees C. Don't boil the wort after you added malt. Some do to "sanitize" the wort and for beer that's good. But in a "beer to be distilled", you don't want to keep it but distill it. Without sanitizing boil, you will get interesting conversion even at 30 degrees C. More complexity.

Expect your malt ferment to be very vigourus and fast. So have some head space in the fermentor. And let it ferment completely dry. Most interesting esters are developed in the last two days. If possible ferment on the grain for more taste to transfer into your final likker.

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Re: Trying to make 100% rye

Post by Ringo » Sun Mar 24, 2013 11:11 am

Yes Odin, excellent. All consistent with what I think I'm learning. BTW, that's why I brought it up to 190F (Mitchy's question), because of all the unmalted rye. I have already tried this recipe (using malted barley instead of malted rye) and had some trouble getting conversion, which is why I started using the amylase. Also, I thought maybe adding half the enzymes on the way up, and half on the way down might help. But I don't think so, and I want to try your suggestion of keeping malt temps low.
Next time I will try 50-50 malted/unmalted rye. Cook the unmalted at 200F for a bit, cool, then add the malted rye at 150F or below and hold overnight.
Next batch after that, I will try all malted.
I have a feeling they will all be drinkable, but different. Not a bad way to learn something.

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Re: Trying to make 100% rye

Post by rad14701 » Sun Mar 24, 2013 11:18 am

Ringo wrote:Well, Rad, for starters, I can get 50#s of good organic unmalted rye for $34. The same amount of malted rye is about $100. But again, I am learning. I am still wondering what the differences are to me in terms of flavor and efficiency/finished quantity, and not just price.
Thanks.
What I meant was to malt your own... Then you get to skip a majority of the conversion process you are left dealing with in an effort to have the best of both worlds using unmalted and malted rye... Spend time and effort malting, or time and effort converting... Your choice...

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Re: Trying to make 100% rye

Post by Ringo » Sun Mar 24, 2013 11:58 am

Thanks for the clarification, Rad. I hadn't considered malting my own. Sounds like a lot of work, but I really don't know. For now, I just want to tune this recipe and get it where I like it, before I start venturing into new territory like malting. But the $ might convince me to give it a go.

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Re: Trying to make 100% rye

Post by MitchyBourbon » Sun Mar 24, 2013 12:33 pm

I have not read that unmalted rye requires higher temps to convert to starch. I have read that rye will convert to starch at or below normal mashing temps. Can anyone site a source for Unmalted malted rye starch conversion?
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Re: Trying to make 100% rye

Post by bellybuster » Sun Mar 24, 2013 12:39 pm

the temps are required to "release" the startches from the grains, they are already there.. Enzymes are required to convert them to sugars that are fermentable (mashing with malted grains). The starches can be freed easier by finer grinding but then you end up with a sticky mess that is hard to manage.
Am I misunderstanding your question? it's been known to happen :roll:

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Re: Trying to make 100% rye

Post by MitchyBourbon » Sun Mar 24, 2013 12:53 pm

Yes,

I am asking for a citation that I can read that states the temperature requirements to turn unmalted rye to starch/gelatinization.

Here is a like to a chart here on HD that I found indicating gelatinization can be done at or below mashing temps. Posted by father William. If you can't trust a man of gawd, who can you trust.;)

http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... 34&t=16799
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Re: Trying to make 100% rye

Post by DuckofDeath » Sun Mar 24, 2013 4:15 pm

I am getting ready for a Rye all grain. I was going to gel and convert at 150 degree's using 6 row. Wont the higher temp help the rye gel? Or should I gel at a lower temp and use gluco to help thin?

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Re: Trying to make 100% rye

Post by Ringo » Sun Mar 24, 2013 4:20 pm

According to the chart that Mitchy linked, Rye starches will be available at about 142F, or 62C. If that's the case, I don't know why one would need to go up to boiling, as Odin suggested. In fact, it seems undesirable, flavorwise. Can we come to a consensus on this one?

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Re: Trying to make 100% rye

Post by seabass » Sun Mar 24, 2013 4:41 pm

Did you add water to account for water absorption of the grain? If not, you'll end up with a few gallons short of 10. My brewing calculator shows that you'll lose about 2.3gal to the grain. That would at least account for higher gravity than it should be. Or maybe I missed it.

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Re: Trying to make 100% rye

Post by seabass » Sun Mar 24, 2013 4:45 pm

Also, definitely no reason to boil the rye. Probably won't hurt anything though.

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Re: Trying to make 100% rye

Post by DuckofDeath » Sun Mar 24, 2013 6:03 pm

The enzymes need higher for better starch conversion at around 150-152

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Re: Trying to make 100% rye

Post by likkerluvver » Fri Aug 02, 2013 6:02 am

Bump!

Did this go anywhere :?:


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Re: Trying to make 100% rye

Post by mtnshiner85 » Mon Aug 05, 2013 9:39 am

Ive made a 100% rye malt whiskey before using German rye it had a real complex flavor i thought and really smooth but boy does it have a smell to it. I made a 25 gal. Batch using about 40-45 lbs of german rye malt i had 7% sg not bad i thought i followed UJ rye recipe as far as temps go in tried and true. 50lbs was $78 from 50lb sack.

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