PH-measurement & control

Production methods from starch to sugars.

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Odin
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PH-measurement & control

Post by Odin »

I never look to much at PH in my ferments.

When I do AG's, it is mostly All Malt, and I expect the quite sour malt to drop the PH in the mash. And after that the yeasties should take care of it. Or at least that's how I interpreted info I got from Big R about the subject.

When I do sugar heads with backset, like my rye bread recipe (and that's what I do most often), the around 25% backset will drop PH in the next generation wash.

I do run into a few problems though, as of late. My ferments are really slow. I contributed that to winter time. But now it is summer, so ... what's going on? I remember my rye ferments used to take like a week to 10 days (8% abv as final goal). Now, it takes 3 weeks minimum. Even if I limit the amount of sugar and shoot for 7% only. Maybe PH is off?

I bought a PH measuring device. Should be in next week, so I can do some tests.

I am also thinking about this 5.2 PH buffering agent. Any of you have any experience with that? It seems to work fine. Any saltiness in the beer? The distillation process should take care of that.

On the other hand ... if you do like an UJ and use repetitive generations of backset ... wouldn't the salts build up over generations? Or could I just lower the amount of buffering agent, since there will be an over concentration in the backset? That is ... if the components stay active after a boil ...

Questions, questions? Any of you care to throw in their wisdom & experience?

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Re: PH-measurement & control

Post by rtalbigr »

Odin, Mostly I don't bother anymore with trying to monitor my pH unless some problem pops up. I have found it completely unnecessary.

Dropping the pH down to 5.2 for mashing only was causing problems with ferments because the pH would drop even more during fermentation slowing and sometimes stalling the ferments. So I just quit doing that. In my experience those 5.2 pH buffers are mostly a waste of money. They do a terrible job of keeping the pH from dropping. Calcium carbonate is what I use when I need to raise my pH.

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Re: PH-measurement & control

Post by Odin »

Thanks for chiming in Big R!

I will do some PH measurements on my ferment and use calcium carbonate to raise it if need be.

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Re: PH-measurement & control

Post by MichiganCornhusker »

I've been doing some experimenting with potato mashes. My first fermentation seemed stalled out and I measured it with pH strips. It looked quite low, less than 3 based on my strips. I added calcium carbonate and it took right off.
Is there a better way to check pH than using the stirps? They're easy enough to use, and cheap, but I could only find a few ranges, and the colors never really give me a great deal of confidence.
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Re: PH-measurement & control

Post by Odin »

I'll be trying this in a few days time:

http://www.conrad.nl/nl/voltcraft-pht-0 ... 01137.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

And will let you know how it goes. I also always had problems with interpreting those colored strips ...

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Re: PH-measurement & control

Post by Jimbo »

You certainly dont want to hit 5.2 before you mash. Thats the goal FOR your mash, and the mash will drop it a lot from starting pH. Problem with pH adjusting is its SO dependent on your water makeup, specifically the amount of minerals in your water that buffer the pH.

For all malt (beers and whiskies) I dont mess with it. For bourbons with 70% corn I use 1ml Lactic Acid per gallon of water and call it a day. Works a charm. 20% backset works a charm too.
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Re: PH-measurement & control

Post by RevSpaminator »

Wow Odin. I thought I was doing something wrong. I have same issue with UJSSM. It works like a charm until I add even 15% backset then fermentation seems to crawl or stall. I too have ordered a pH meter. It was cheap with good reviews. $7.50 on Amazon with free shipping. It should arrive between Halloween and Thanksgiving. (What should I expect for free?)
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Re: PH-measurement & control

Post by Jimbo »

That means its too much acid for youre particular water. skip the backset and try again. prolly run fine.
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Re: PH-measurement & control

Post by IrishEnigma »

I've used the 5.2. waisted money. I used a whole pound of it not even to raise it .2 then bought oyster shell calcium carbonate tablets. Used 250 of those on 2 sweet feeds only to raise them both about .4 used some baking soda after that being pissed off. Didn't help much at all. Also threw some egg shells and chalk in. both are still below 4. I'm thinking about just starting new cuz I've thrown so much into them. I can't find just a straight calcium carbonate around here. Sorry to hijack odin but you seem to get more replies :P I
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Re: PH-measurement & control

Post by Jimbo »

Jesus H Irish, pound of this, 250 of that. Skip all that shit and run it without. Youll have better luck
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Re: PH-measurement & control

Post by IrishEnigma »

Run it at 1.06? Won't scorch to the element?
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Re: PH-measurement & control

Post by IrishEnigma »

Plus it will take more than 4 weeks to ferment out
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Re: PH-measurement & control

Post by Jimbo »

what are you running that takes 4 weeks? what the wash/mash/msut , whats the yeast and whats the temp?

1.06 is like a starting gravity, do you mean 1.006?
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Re: PH-measurement & control

Post by moosemilk »

What kind of pH meter you guys using? Been wanting to get one myself. Those pool ones work? I know the soil ones don't. Haven't had problems. Yet. Bit be a nice tool to have.
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Re: PH-measurement & control

Post by Jimbo »

I bought one on fleabay for damn cheap. Used it a couple times to understand my waters buffering abilities. Now it sits.
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Re: PH-measurement & control

Post by IrishEnigma »

No 1.06 hasn't moved much at all. And it's the sweet feed. Ph is like at 3.7 now. 4th gen
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Re: PH-measurement & control

Post by IrishEnigma »

Temp has been about 75 and fleichmans bakers yeast now. Theres some ec-1118 in there as well
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Re: PH-measurement & control

Post by Jimbo »

pH is too low. Thats very acid. Yeast are in hell. You need some baking soda stat. If it hasnt moved off 1.06 you got nothing to run, even if you wanted to.
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Re: PH-measurement & control

Post by Jimbo »

Bakers likes 80. Add 1 tsp per gallon of baking soda, and get the temp up over 80. Hot water bath. And youll prolly see activity. If you didnt oxygenate well, take the time to whip it to a froth too. yeast need oxygen for their first step (single cell sex)
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Re: PH-measurement & control

Post by NZChris »

I'm using pH strips. Something more accurate would be nice, but I can't justify spending the money.

I add weighed clam shells and that seems to be doing the trick for me. Just did two 60l UJSSMs, the clam lost 4.25g and 3g. That's a 10 day ferment and a 4 day ferment. That was followed by a sugar wash on about a third of the corn that took 13 days at the most, and it's clam lost 8.3g. The test strips never showed below pH4. They never have in any UJSSM ferment I've done.
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Re: PH-measurement & control

Post by rtalbigr »

I have found pH test strips to be rather inaccurate. I have an inexpensive meter that I use when making some of my cheeses and I want to ferment the cheese to a specific pH before I press and salt or stretch the cheese. I rarely use it for mashing. Meters can be a little picky. Ya gotta keep 'em in a buffer solution and they Must be calibrated each time they are used, but ya can't beat them for accuracy if used properly.

If ya start a ferment and your wash is below pH 5 you're gonna have problems a lot of the time. If you're adding backset for whatever reason ya need to be able to monitor the pH accurately.

For whiskey, all I do are AG's and they are inherently simple. I rarely test anything. I might check a SG once every 30-40 mashes. Mostly I just know what to look for and what to expect.

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Re: PH-measurement & control

Post by heartcut »

What bigR said. A pH meter that isn't stored correctly and calibrated regularly is dangerous because of that reassuring 1 or 2 decimal point display. I use high end pH meters in the lab, but strips give me as much accuracy as needed for mashing and fermenting. I use 50% backset for rum and buffer with dudadiesel Calcium Carbonate, but seldom measure or buffer anything else.
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Re: PH-measurement & control

Post by frunobulax »

I use this ph meter....http://www.amazon.com/Milwaukee-MW102-P ... B001DTNDME" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
I get my water tested every couple of years for homebrewing and I have soft water (17 ppm alkalinity) and I could never add backset or acid
to a mash or wash or my PH would drop terribly. If I make a sugar wash, I have to be prepared for a ph crash. I'll set it a 5.5 to start, knowing the next day
it's going to be in the low 4's I'll add a couple TBS of pickling lime (calcium hydroxide) and or calcium carbonate to raise it. If left without doing anything It will be
in the low 3's in 3 days and stall. I've also added the salts at the beginning of fermentation and started with a ph of 8 or so and it still finished in the 4 range.
I think starting with Ph that high may stress the yeast ?, so I usually add the salts the next day.
All grain is a different story, the grains used provide a buffer to prevent a ph crash, sugar has no buffering capabilities.
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Re: PH-measurement & control

Post by bearriver »

My thoughts are with Big R.
If I lower the starting PH before pitching, its ends up getting too low. I've since dropped lemon juice from my BW, and it finishes much faster.

A decent meter should have a maintenance and calibration kit, and only require calibration every 3 months or so. It will also tell you when it needs calibrating.

I use this and it works AMAZING: http://www.hydroponics.net/i/136227" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

Kit: http://www.growwurks.com/bluelab-ph-pro ... fgodHooAPQ" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

KCI storage solution: http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B00CJIDH7 ... ot_redir=1" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

You can find all that stuff on Amazon, or EBay. YouTube has an official instruction video from Bluelab as well.

I've owned many cheap meters, and have consistently been disappointed with them.
Last edited by bearriver on Sun Aug 24, 2014 7:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: PH-measurement & control

Post by Odin »

Okay, some first number on the water I use over here. Maybe you can make sense of it.

The water over here is considered "fairly hard". In scientific terms: its 7.5 dH. Now, one dH stands for 17.8 grams of calcium per 1,000 liters of water. So 7.5 dH translates to 7.5 * 17.8 = 133.5 grams per 1,000 liters.

Water, ideally, should have around 100 ppm of calcium (or at least between 50 and 150 ppm), if I am not mistaken. Not sure I am making the correct translation here, since grams may not be the same as ppm's, but let's give it a try:

1,000 liters of water weights 1,000 kilograms. That's 1,000,000 grams. That's a million. If we devide 135 grams by a million, the answer is that the water I use is 135 grams per milion. But is that the same as 135 ppm?

Please let me know if my calculation is correct or not.

Another question. Am I correct to asume that softer water has less buffering capability than harder water? If that's the case, my water should have a fairly good buffering capability.

PH is said to be 7.9. When my tester is in, I can varify.

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Re: PH-measurement & control

Post by frunobulax »

parts per million and milligrams per litre are almost interchangeable. And yes, what make the water hard IS it's buffering capabilities.
Hardness is determined by the amount of calcium, magnesium and carbonates/bicarbonates in your water, all of which will make your water hard and buffer it.Also the PH of your water has nothing to do with how hard/soft it is.
My water being soft is great for making beer though. It's easier to add salts than to get rid of them.
Edit: Here is a good read on water for brewing.....https://sites.google.com/site/brunwater/water-knowledge" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
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Re: PH-measurement & control

Post by Odin »

Great read, much appreciated!

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Re: PH-measurement & control

Post by bearriver »

John Palmer, the "How To Brew" author has a book out called "Water: A Comprehensive Guide for Brewers (Brewing Elements)". I think it is also distributed in multiple different languages. Just started reading it myself after finishing "How to Brew"

http://www.amazon.com/Water-Comprehensi ... 0937381993" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
Amazon wrote:Water is arguably the most critical and least understood of the foundation elements in brewing beer. Water: A Comprehensive Guide for Brewers, third in Brewers Publications’ Brewing Elements series, takes the mystery out of water’s role in the brewing process. The book leads brewers through the chemistry and treatment of brewing water, from an overview of water sources, to adjusting water for different beer styles, and different brewery processes, to wastewater treatment. The discussions include how to read water reports, understanding flavor contributions, residual alkalinity, malt acidity, and mash pH.
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Re: PH-measurement & control

Post by Odin »

So I have my Voltcraft PH-measurer in. I calibrated it and checked PH of our tap water. PH is 7.65. Not too high, so okay, I'd say. Now, what really flabbergasted me, was the (almost finished) rye bread beer I took a reading on.

3.05!

And that's very, very low. Interesting thing is, that this is a new generation, without added backset! I will have to adjust. That's sure!

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Re: PH-measurement & control

Post by Galeoturpis »

You guys don't have any idea about pH and mashing. In human physiology (which ain't that different to yeast physiology) Peter Stewart came up with the answer 20 years ago (before he died) with strong ion difference and Atot. Get your head around that concept before you repost. There is a calculator at anaesthetist.com which explains everything. There is some money to be made from someone writing an app calculating all this!
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