Ferment/distil in boiler

[Alphadog007]

I'm curious for those that have bigger boilers, what are the pros/cons:

Fermenting in boiler, then when finished, sealing up the still and kicking in the heating elements (all electric)? For ease of process I'd imagine it a 10 but don't know if the taste with the yeast (and unstrained residual) is worth the easier process. Again, this is for people with bigger boilers.

[WooTeck]

all i can think off is scorching. allthough im sure there will be a way to do it

[Jimbo]

the only way you can distill everything, crud and all, is with a steam heated boiler or bain marie double boiler.

[carbohydratesn]

Cons? You'll have a lot of cleaning to do after a run, and you won't be able to use your boiler for anything else while it's fermenting.

Pros? There's no reason to wait for it to clear, because you'll be cooking the yeast and other solids anyway...so technically you might as well skip that step. This is really just another con, though, because anything you make will not taste very good unless you use steam or a double boiler. And if you're getting fancy enough to use either of those heating methods - why not just get a separate fermenter?

It would be better in so many ways.

[Honest_Liberty]

But what about if you have an agitator?

[zach]

But what about if you have an agitator?

Here is a post on a successful agitator

https://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtop ... r#p7423653

[JesseMarques]

dumb idea
yeast taste is not good when distilled IMO
and you can try yourself, the boiler size has no play in this, just throw everything inside after fermentation

[Honest_Liberty]

dumb idea
yeast taste is not good when distilled IMO
and you can try yourself, the boiler size has no play in this, just throw everything inside after fermentation

So you think even with double distillation I'll suffer offset flavors from yeast?

[JesseMarques]

dumb idea
yeast taste is not good when distilled IMO
and you can try yourself, the boiler size has no play in this, just throw everything inside after fermentation

So you think even with double distillation I'll suffer offset flavors from yeast?

honestly i don't know because I've never tried.
But it will always depends on how you make your cuts

Anyway the main subject here is using the boiler as a fermenter. You can, but you'll have a busy boiler during this time, I can't see the worth on doing this

[Butch27]

... Anyway the main subject here is using the boiler as a fermenter. You can, but you'll have a busy boiler during this time, I can't see the worth on doing this

For me it is the only way to go. It is the only way I have ever done it. In my opinion it is way less work. You just can't be messing around with a 5 gal vessel. In this case size does matter.

[JesseMarques]

you can rack or pump it to the boiler, that's how most people do it, you can even transfer it with a jug.
5gal buckets are cheap and you can have more ferments going simultaneously

[Butch27]

you can rack or pump it to the boiler, that's how most people do it, you can even transfer it with a jug.
5gal buckets are cheap and you can have more ferments going simultaneously

How much booze do you need to make? I haven't distilled anything for 2 seasons (I usually just distill in the fall when apples are in season). the last 2 years have been poor apple years and I simply have way too much on hand anyway even with giving a fair bit away. I plan on starting to make some gin just so as that I can go out to the shed and play.

[JesseMarques]

How much booze do you need to make? I haven't distilled anything for 2 seasons (I usually just distill in the fall when apples are in season). the last 2 years have been poor apple years and I simply have way too much on hand anyway even with giving a fair bit away. I plan on starting to make some gin just so as that I can go out to the shed and play.

I guess you are right, this is a damn good reason to ferment in the boiler, when you don't want to use it
Tell me, is the yeast a problem in taste?

[Butch27]

I don't believe it hurts the taste but my palate may not be as discerning as some.

[Honest_Liberty]

dumb idea
yeast taste is not good when distilled IMO
and you can try yourself, the boiler size has no play in this, just throw everything inside after fermentation

So you think even with double distillation I'll suffer offset flavors from yeast?

honestly i don't know because I've never tried.
But it will always depends on how you make your cuts

Anyway the main subject here is using the boiler as a fermenter. You can, but you'll have a busy boiler during this time, I can't see the worth on doing this

Here was my thought on the matter, please, weigh in where any of you find pitfalls. I'm actually going to do a write-up in a fresh post about this in more detail.

I want a 26 gallon boiler, 4" or 6" column, with grain port and agitator. I'll purchase from MileHi and grab an agitator.

Since I can't hit my expectations for SG on Booner's anywhere near woodshed, my thoughts are I need to boil first. I would only need to double mill the corn.

So, with an agitator, runnning on Natural gas setup in house (halfway pays for itself in one full barrel even with install and parts vs propane),
I would bring the temp up quite quickly and be able to hold it at the proper temp for HT Alpha, then I can submerge my wort chiller, bring er down to the correct temp for Gluco, insulate it overnight, and add yeast the next afternoon. Once it is done fermenting and ready to run, I'll just turn on the agitator and let er rip for my strip run. I can't see any possibility of scorching if that agitator is running the whole time.

The beauty, in my estimation is this:
1.Sanitation is done through the high temps so no more messing with sanitation.

2. I save significant energy on milling with my KitchenAid mill (which that time spent would just be running the boiler with the agitator and finding the exact temp once I dial it in. Set and forget for maybe an hour. (not really, but I could tinker around in the boiler room or whatever, instead of messing with the KitchenAid mill)

3. No more messing with the mop wringer and I'm sure to extract all the flavor and alcohol down to 15% (which is where I go on my strips)

I would expect to massively reduce my time cost vs. my current setup. Especially with the 4 or 6" column. The only downside is what JesseMarques mentioned in that yeast tastes like poo when distilled. I'm confused though because he also said he's never done it.
Pardon if I misread your reply. I've had yeast in my boiler and on the first run it definitely is present when I tried to do a low and slow single run (which is why I don't anymore), but typically I don't notice it on the spirit run.

[JesseMarques]

Here was my thought on the matter, please, weigh in where any of you find pitfalls. I'm actually going to do a write-up in a fresh post about this in more detail.

I want a 26 gallon boiler, 4" or 6" column, with grain port and agitator. I'll purchase from MileHi and grab an agitator.

I would expect to massively reduce my time cost vs. my current setup. Especially with the 4 or 6" column. The only downside is what JesseMarques mentioned in that yeast tastes like poo when distilled. I'm confused though because he also said he's never done it.
Pardon if I misread your reply. I've had yeast in my boiler and on the first run it definitely is present when I tried to do a low and slow single run (which is why I don't anymore), but typically I don't notice it on the spirit run.

If you have experience distilling with yeast and it's not a problem, go for it.
I have a 150L boiler (33+gal) with 6" riser but it is of no help in distillation speed since the exit to the condenser is just 3/4". I'm always obliged to distill slowly and because of that I'm not doing double runs anymore, just one slow spirit run and later (when I get enough) a run of feints.
Go for a 6" if you can, but put a bigger output to save time and energy, at least for pot still mode, and if it's going to be a reflux column, bigger diameter increases separation due to bigger volume interacting with packing but requires more packing material to fill it

[Honest_Liberty]

Here was my thought on the matter, please, weigh in where any of you find pitfalls. I'm actually going to do a write-up in a fresh post about this in more detail.

I want a 26 gallon boiler, 4" or 6" column, with grain port and agitator. I'll purchase from MileHi and grab an agitator.

I would expect to massively reduce my time cost vs. my current setup. Especially with the 4 or 6" column. The only downside is what JesseMarques mentioned in that yeast tastes like poo when distilled. I'm confused though because he also said he's never done it.
Pardon if I misread your reply. I've had yeast in my boiler and on the first run it definitely is present when I tried to do a low and slow single run (which is why I don't anymore), but typically I don't notice it on the spirit run.

If you have experience distilling with yeast and it's not a problem, go for it.
I have a 150L boiler (33+gal) with 6" riser but it is of no help in distillation speed since the exit to the condenser is just 3/4". I'm always obliged to distill slowly and because of that I'm not doing double runs anymore, just one slow spirit run and later (when I get enough) a run of feints.
Go for a 6" if you can, but put a bigger output to save time and energy, at least for pot still mode, and if it's going to be a reflux column, bigger diameter increases separation due to bigger volume interacting with packing but requires more packing material to fill it

Almost every column 4 or 6 appears to reduce to a 2" shotgun condenser, which is what I have now. I haven't seen anything larger than that available or seen anyone actually running something larger

[Bee]

I don't believe yeast is a problem or else nearly every major distiller wouldn't pump their mash directly into their continuous distilling columns.

[v-child]

But what about if you have an agitator?

My wife is busy.
On the other hand, most people don't like the nasty taste of cooked yeast.

[Butch27]

..... On the other hand, most people don't like the nasty taste of cooked yeast.

I'm really not sure what you are talking about (I love fresh bread). I ferment and distil on the grain all the time. I suppose everyone's palate is not the same so YMMV. I really wish I knew some other distillers reasonably close by so we could compare products. I've tasted some other stuff that just tasted like nothing/water. He stuck a hydrometer in it and it was 40% ABV. I figure that would be good for making gin or some other product like that but not really my thing for drinking straight or mixed.

[tiramisu]

Most people don't like burned mash, but I'm not convinced that most people do not like grain-in distillation.
Heck, some people like peat smoke heavily infused into the mash. Others like to put their alcohol into burnt and toasted oak barrels.
Others will even pump smoke through their distillate or throw wood chips into the solvent. Crazy I know.

If you have a jacketed still or use a steam infusion or an agitator you should be able to get a nice grain-in distillate for your whiskey.
Getting more flavour and having fewer vessel transfers, sparging/ steps in the process seems like a fairly big win-win.

This might not be a great recipe for GNC but for making a sipping whiskey it seems like a good path to me.
There are a large number of slightly different methods and recipes people use to achieve their desired outcome.

[v-child]

So basically we've regressed all the way to the point we just chunk the whole mess in the boiler and cook? I think of all the time I could have saved with the sparging, fermenting off the grain and racking off the lees. Man, I feel dumb.

[tiramisu]

Thinking that this is regression is the dumb part. Confusing making a beer with making a whisky

[Butch27]

So basically we've regressed all the way to the point we just chunk the whole mess in the boiler and cook? I think of all the time I could have saved with the sparging, fermenting off the grain and racking off the lees. Man, I feel dumb.

You need to get in touch with your inner laziness and embrace it. Who knows, you may even like it.

[v-child]

Notice that all the old-timers haven't weighed in on this? They're too busy laughing.

[SassyFrass]

First and foremost...to OP. It's your money, your time, your drink. Experiment all you want. Just have fun and be safe.
I've never fermented in my boiler, nor been around anyone that done it. Scorched likker a few times and dont ever want to do it again, but itll probably happen sooner or later. Rumor had it that folks to the east of me (VA) ran blackpot or submarine outfits. They fermented in the boiler and cooked the dirty mash. And would get 2,3, or more runs from the same corn, just by adding sugar and fresh water back to the boiler, after a run. Now, you gotta remember, that was a long time ago and it was just stories old folks told when I was a kid. Old guys I knew said everything that came out of a sub would get you hammered but didnt taste good. I dont know, never ran a sub, nor been around one that was producing.
Having said all that, folks have direct fired on the grain mash/wash and made likker. Is it good likker? I dont know. To me, it ain't worth the money or time to find out. I'm already trying to figure out reflux and electric. To do this experiment you're gonna be putting out a big chunk of cash and time. And what you produce may or may not be worth a hoot.
SF

[Butch27]

First and foremost...to OP. It's your money, your time, your drink. Experiment all you want. Just have fun and be safe.
I've never fermented in my boiler, nor been around anyone that done it. Scorched likker a few times and dont ever want to do it again, but itll probably happen sooner or later. Rumor had it that folks to the east of me (VA) ran blackpot or submarine outfits. They fermented in the boiler and cooked the dirty mash. And would get 2,3, or more runs from the same corn, just by adding sugar and fresh water back to the boiler, after a run. Now, you gotta remember, that was a long time ago and it was just stories old folks told when I was a kid. Old guys I knew said everything that came out of a sub would get you hammered but didnt taste good. I dont know, never ran a sub, nor been around one that was producing.
Having said all that, folks have direct fired on the grain mash/wash and made likker. Is it good likker? I dont know. To me, it ain't worth the money or time to find out. I'm already trying to figure out reflux and electric. To do this experiment you're gonna be putting out a big chunk of cash and time. And what you produce may or may not be worth a hoot.
SF

First off, people should not knock what they have not tried. I have never used any other method and only recently have I managed to acquire a keg to help me move forward and be able to produce some different spirits. However, all initial ferments and distillations will still be done in the old still. For the record, I have never scorched a mash. To my knowledge, submarine is a type of still and blackpot refers to a process of mashing and distilling. "Dirty mash" makes it sound, well, dirty. I doubt they put any dirt in their fermenter/still and I certainly do not. I think the term "uncleared" might be more appropriate. I generally always set my batch a second time and sometimes a third time by adding more sugar. I suppose that could be considered blackpot but in my opinion it is no different than what they call a gumballhead here. Second batch takes slightly longer to ferment and has slightly less returns while these are more pronounced on the third batch. I have tried adjusting the ph with baking soda and buffering with oyster shells but they have not helped much to alleviate this. My original setup was not expensive and to say the truth probably cheap compared to what I have seen people on here spend on their units. You just need to be able to think out of the box a little bit. I put some time into the unit but nothing extraordinary. Certainly less than someone building their own copper pot. Is what I produce worth a hoot? Well I like it and that is what counts and as I have said before my palate may not be as discerning as some so YMMV.

[Honest_Liberty]

Well I'm not going to cast this versions and say anything's dumb cuz I'm not as smart as I once thought I was.

What I will say is I think that the agitator would keep any possibility from scorching if I'm running natural gas burner underneath with a diffuser plate. The only thing that was brought up that I thought was a possibility was the yeast flavor because I'm not going to be getting rid of the trub bed, which I normally don't include. I always run cloudy and after the second run it's completely removed any yeast flavor. single runs though when I try to do low and slow definitely had a very pronounced bread yeast profile. I prefer the purity and proof from spirit runs.

I don't agree it is regression to be more efficient, reduce risk of unwanted infections, and open up the ability to pull all the alcohol available without having to wring and transfer grain. However, because of my lack of knowledge (even though I read about an hour to 2 hours here ever single day for four years), it is possible I'm totally missing something.

Worst case Ontario, when I upgrade, is that I'll need to run a separate fermentation vessel but I'm trying to avoid that to streamline my process. I spend way too much time on the still for my family's sake right now

[Butch27]

.... very pronounced bread yeast profile. ...

Is there another way you can describe that taste? I hear people talk of this and I am not really sure what they are talking about.

[PoppaW]

My wife can taste yeast in young whiskey. Seems age takes care of it. So to be safe I drink it younger so she doesn’t suffer. As for fermenting in the boiler I have wondered if it would save me space and time. A guy can still let the beer clear and siphon it out into pails then get the yeast out and run the boiler as usual. I guess i can see a guy using one pot for everything. I want a double wall still and try a distill on grain just to see. So many ways to make a good drink.