Ferment/distil in boiler

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Re: Ferment/distil in boiler

Post by v-child »

tiramisu wrote: Sat Mar 06, 2021 3:53 pm Thinking that this is regression is the dumb part. Confusing making a beer 🍻 with making a whisky 🥃
Mummy must not have taught you any manners...
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Re: Ferment/distil in boiler

Post by Honest_Liberty »

Butch27 wrote: Sun Mar 07, 2021 12:17 pm
Honest_Liberty wrote: Sun Mar 07, 2021 12:04 pm .... very pronounced bread yeast profile. ...
Is there another way you can describe that taste? I hear people talk of this and I am not really sure what they are talking about.
Think fresh baked bread and the earthy smell of yeast when it's a starter, but translated into taste. It's bread like, is all I can say. I assume that's yeast and that's also why I don't do single run whiskeys or sugarheads. I even had a neighbor say he noticed it and could tell between the stuff that was twice run.

On my brandies however, since I use lalvin 1118 or red star red wine yeast, I cold crash them and let them rest a few months...I never get that taste. Plus I run them low and slow.

Yeast and bread. You know it when you taste and smell it. I don't know how else to explain it
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Re: Ferment/distil in boiler

Post by Butch27 »

Well maybe that explains it. I do mostly do apple brandy with 1118.
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Re: Ferment/distil in boiler

Post by Tater »

Sub likker = Fermenting and running in boilers was way all rotgut shiner's around here use to make it . Easier to do wasn't considered as good as likker that was dipped outta barrel or mash box leaving yeast in bottom. If ya was a regular shine drinker ya could tell by taste how it was made .Most shine drinkers including myself avoided it .Same shit that Tim was making on his show.
I use a pot still.Sometimes with a thumper
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Re: Ferment/distil in boiler

Post by Butch27 »

Well I am thankful that I have a less discerning palate and that I don't have to slop around all that mash just to satisfy it.
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Re: Ferment/distil in boiler

Post by Tater »

:mrgreen:
Butch27 wrote: Wed Mar 17, 2021 4:02 pm Well I am thankful that I have a less discerning palate and that I don't have to slop around all that mash just to satisfy it.
To each there own my old uncle use to say.
I use a pot still.Sometimes with a thumper
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Re: Ferment/distil in boiler

Post by shadylane »

I built a Baine Marie steam rig for running bourbon or corn liquor.
The mash is cooked, fermented and distilled in the same SS boiler, it takes around 3 to 4 days.
I figure the yeast has to get distilled along with everything else, since there isn't a way of separating the yeast from a corn mash, short of a centrifuge.


https://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtop ... 92&t=59138
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Re: Ferment/distil in boiler

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Tater wrote: Wed Mar 17, 2021 2:11 pm Sub likker = Fermenting and running in boilers was way all rotgut shiner's around here use to make it . Easier to do wasn't considered as good as likker that was dipped outta barrel or mash box leaving yeast in bottom. If ya was a regular shine drinker ya could tell by taste how it was made .Most shine drinkers including myself avoided it .Same shit that Tim was making on his show.
Ya got that right :wink:
Everything was about quantity, over quality.
Most of the Sub still operators also didn't worry about the metal used in a submarine still.
As the hillbillies around here used to say, ifen it's too big pick it up and run,
Don't spent too much building it. :lol:
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Ferment/distil in boiler

Post by jon1163 »

It’s interesting to hear how everyone works out their stuff around here. Here’s my process and it might save you a whole lot of money because those agitators are expensive. Wives too.

I run ferments in 30 gallon barrels. My process is pretty much the same for neutrals and whiskeys. A few years ago I was clearing out a building that was being sold and I found one of those cool tables that plugs into the wall outlet and has two buttons that raise and lower it.

I put my 26 gallon boiler On the table and raise it up just above the level of my 30 gallon fermentation barrel. The 30 gallon barrel is resting on one of those little trashcan rollers with swivel casters.

I boil 26 gallons of water open the butterfly valve and let it dump into my fermenter. If it’s all green a dump in the corn and start a large batch mash. (that process is talked about in another thread by somebody else). If it’s a neutral I just pour in all my ingredients and whip it into a frenzy.

Cool everything to pitching temp and pitch my yeast. I put a little space heater in the room to keep things warm, sometimes not, and let it ferment out.

When the all grain is done I squeeze it through a mop bucket Using paint strainer bags bought at Lowe’s and then pour the mop bucket mash into another 30 gallon barrel on another caster cart of course. If it’s a neutral I just leave it in the same fermenter.

In the summertime it gets left in the room to settle out until it is as clear as I think it’ll get. In the winter time I roll the fermenter through the kitchen out onto the deck and let it cold crash.

Once it has settled out I roll it back in, take the boiler set it on the ground on the caster cart of course and put the column, flute or pot, on my boiler (I made them all interchangeable).

I use some taigon tubing attached to a fish tank pump and I hold the fish tank pump to just under the water line of the mash And pump it into my boiler. I watch the stuff coming out of the pump until I start to see trub and then I turn it off. I haven’t run a really yeasty mash through my flute but I certainly can’t taste it when it’s run through my pot. It’s not any trouble to keep the east out really so I just do it by practice.

Once I’m done stilling I disassemble my column And roll the boiler full of liquid out onto the deck. I attach a long garden hose and open my butterfly valve and drain it on all the weeds.

Yeah I can lift 30 gallon barrels full of liquid but it’s prone to throw my back out if I move wrong and I like to do things the easy way so long as it doesn’t sacrifice quality. I try to roll everything I can.
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Re: Ferment/distil in boiler

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I'm thinking of picking up a 26 gallon, 4", 4 plate column with perforated plates from oak stills. I've seen a few different reviews them and I haven't seen anything to avoid. I would like some thoughts if this will be sufficient to do the following:

Boil and mash, ferment, then distill.. All in the same vessel. Can this agitator, from the description, percent scorching, based on RPM? That is all I care about. I don't care about yeast or anything. Simply, will this agitator be sufficient to prevent scorching based on RPM?

I am done with all the nonsense that comes with trying to extract good efficiency in coolers and with enzymes without boiling, (I'll still use them), transferring to the fermenter, transferring and wringing through a mop wringer, then pouring info the boiler. I hate the process so much it's ruined my enjoyment of this hobby. And I can't stand sugar washes, so I'm looking for a less labor intensive approach.

Here's the response to my question:


New message from: oakstills-com Top Rated Seller(934Purple Star)
Hi, the total price of the 4 inch 4 plates column with a 26 ga ss boiler, agitator(0.25kw, 36RPM) is USD 1498, we need to pay 10% eBay fee here so if we complete the order through our website we can give you a 10% discount.
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Re: Ferment/distil in boiler

Post by jon1163 »

I don’t mean to irritate you by obliquely answering your question again but I’m just not sure if you would scorch with the agitator. I have a friend who owns a distillery and from what I know agitators are more for allowing you to apply better power to a mash in large scale set ups.

I felt compelled to reply again though because for $1400 you can buy a 26 gallon double walled boiler and achieve the same goal. Probably get a much better product too.
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Re: Ferment/distil in boiler

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Tater wrote: Wed Mar 17, 2021 2:11 pm Sub likker = Fermenting and running in boilers was way all rotgut shiner's around here use to make it . Easier to do wasn't considered as good as likker that was dipped outta barrel or mash box leaving yeast in bottom. If ya was a regular shine drinker ya could tell by taste how it was made .Most shine drinkers including myself avoided it .Same shit that Tim was making on his show.
I'm not sure I understand this, because I'm not just running this once and making almost no cuts. You know?
Correct me if I'm wrong (because I'm not well versed in the traditional ways), but running twice should clean up the assumed off flavors from yeast bed being boiled along with the grains... No?

I am trying to figure this out before I spend the money on my upgrade. I seriously just don't know because I've thrown everything through the mop wringer and haven't noticed a difference in the double distilled, decently cut final product
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Re: Ferment/distil in boiler

Post by Honest_Liberty »

jon1163 wrote: Wed Mar 17, 2021 7:57 pm I don’t mean to irritate you by obliquely answering your question again but I’m just not sure if you would scorch with the agitator. I have a friend who owns a distillery and from what I know agitators are more for allowing you to apply better power to a mash in large scale set ups.

I felt compelled to reply again though because for $1400 you can buy a 26 gallon double walled boiler and achieve the same goal. Probably get a much better product too.
Thank you. I really appreciate the reply and no one here irritated me. In fact, quite a few had been very patient with me years ago when I first got going and was way out of line. I have cash but I want to make the best decision for efficiency. I love hunting and building. I want to stop spending so much of my time during my off-season with extemporaneous, time and labor intensive aspects of this hobby.

I figured the agitator would keep the grains moving enough, that when stripping on the grain, it would be moving sufficiently add to avoid scorching, on a natural gas burner.

I'm unsure of the double walled boiler but the entire setup with agitator and column and boiler is $1348. If the double jacketed boiler is that much alone, then it's beyond my budget.
Sweetfeed 100 proof for drinking white
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Ferment/distil in boiler

Post by jon1163 »

Honest_Liberty wrote: I figured the agitator would keep the grains moving enough, that when stripping on the grain, it would be moving sufficiently add to avoid scorching, on a natural gas burner.
I’m going to bet that you will get an inferior product by distilling on grain unless you use steam or double jacketed. Just my opinion. I don’t think the agitator is going to do a whole lot except maybe reduce your scorch just a tad. Your cleanup will be a complete nightmare and probably take longer than using the mop bucket method.

You shouldn’t need to strip and spirit with a flute still either but that’s a different topic. Flute stills generally are one and done.

Back to your problem though. If you forgo the agitator you’ll save money that could better be spent on a double walled boiler and then you would be able to achieve your goals with a little cleanup. Work an overtime shift Or save up for a couple of months for that extra cash If you are able.

I believe if you buy the agitator you will probably be disappointed At worst, and underwhelmed at best, if you use it on a single wall boiler with an open flame, even with a dissipation plate underneath.
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Re: Ferment/distil in boiler

Post by Honest_Liberty »

Ok thank you. Pandora's box of research... Well, it continues
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Re: Ferment/distil in boiler

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Honest_Liberty wrote: Wed Mar 17, 2021 7:59 pm
Tater wrote: Wed Mar 17, 2021 2:11 pm Sub likker = Fermenting and running in boilers was way all rotgut shiner's around here use to make it . Easier to do wasn't considered as good as likker that was dipped outta barrel or mash box leaving yeast in bottom. If ya was a regular shine drinker ya could tell by taste how it was made .Most shine drinkers including myself avoided it .Same shit that Tim was making on his show.
I'm not sure I understand this, because I'm not just running this once and making almost no cuts. You know?
Correct me if I'm wrong (because I'm not well versed in the traditional ways), but running twice should clean up the assumed off flavors from yeast bed being boiled along with the grains... No?

I am trying to figure this out before I spend the money on my upgrade. I seriously just don't know because I've thrown everything through the mop wringer and haven't noticed a difference in the double distilled, decently cut final product
Would lessen them but not remove -Old timers would not of went to the trouble of having mash boxes or barrels carried way back into hills if likker been as good if all done in 1 container ,Was lotta work .If likker was as good why do big outfits run it through charcoal before wood ageing it. Grand pa use to say shit in shit out. :ebiggrin: If you just in it for the drunk guess it dont matter. Grand pa would leave yeast and trub in bottom of fermenters .after dipping out with buckets .mix that back with grain after stillin with some sugar and make a sugarhead run
I use a pot still.Sometimes with a thumper
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Re: Ferment/distil in boiler

Post by shadylane »

Honest_Liberty wrote: Wed Mar 17, 2021 8:05 pm
I figured the agitator would keep the grains moving enough, that when stripping on the grain, it would be moving sufficiently add to avoid scorching, on a natural gas burner.
Maybe if you take your time with the heat.
And don't run too thick of a mash.
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Re: Ferment/distil in boiler

Post by v-child »

Tater: "Grand pa use to say shit in shit out."

Garbage in, garbage out. Holds true in many aspects of life.
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Re: Ferment/distil in boiler

Post by Toxxyc »

I'm new. I've been making beer for a long time, but never made a good neutral from grains. I discovered the reason for that last week (and I fear my current aging whisky will suffer this same fate).

So during our first hard lockdown, booze was banned and I sold fresh wort kits to people to make beer at home. 100% legal loophole that worked. I ended up making just under 7,000l of wort and sold off most of it. Some remained and a few of those I simply fermented and distilled. Yes, distilled beer. First mistake.

I picked up a funky flavour in ALL the distillates, no matter how fine I made my cuts, no matter how slowly I ran the still. I eventually even started taking cuts during the stripping run, and then took cuts in 2 subsequent spirit runs as well, to no avail. That "funky" beer flavour stuck, and I didn't know where it came from until this week. I saw a video on it on the Still It channel and when Jesse explained the flavour, it clicked.

Second mistake was dumping everything into the kettle on my stripping runs. Everything. Sludge and yeast and all. Why? Because I figured "there's alcohol in it, can't throw away alcohol". Taste was...peculiar.

Then I made a rum wash. Just sugar and molasses, and ran that. Ended up A LOT better. I now know why. I didn't distill crap you don't want in your distillate. So yeah, from now on my washes will be cold crashed to clear before distilling. Period.
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Re: Ferment/distil in boiler

Post by Sk8brew »

Fermenters are usually a lot cheaper than boilers. If you are doing stripping run and spirit run, you typically want your fermenter 3x the boiler volume. So, doing it all in the boiler, may save some time, but you will end up with 1/3 of the finished product. So, did you really save time?
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Re: Ferment/distil in boiler

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Tater wrote: Wed Mar 17, 2021 8:23 pm
Would lessen them but not remove -Old timers would not of went to the trouble of having mash boxes or barrels carried way back into hills if likker been as good if all done in 1 container ,Was lotta work .If likker was as good why do big outfits run it through charcoal before wood ageing it. Grand pa use to say shit in shit out. :ebiggrin: If you just in it for the drunk guess it dont matter. Grand pa would leave yeast and trub in bottom of fermenters .after dipping out with buckets .mix that back with grain after stillin with some sugar and make a sugarhead run
[/quote]

I don't run for the drunk. I can afford to drink $30-40 whiskey at a daily dram. What I'm after us efficiency and less headache on the front end


It was my interpretation jack daniels charcoal filters because their cuts are so wide and foul. It's like drinking nail polish remover.
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Re: Ferment/distil in boiler

Post by Honest_Liberty »

But I'll be finding out today on my spirit run because I put almost everything in from my Booner's. I'm sick and can't smell. Might take till Monday and airing out
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Re: Ferment/distil in boiler

Post by Honest_Liberty »

https://adiforums.com/topic/8369-distil ... the-grain/

This is a different take.
What I don't understand it's why the double jacketed boiler is necessary, and also, how would I heat it?

Is it that the agitator alone, on a stainless steel kettle with diffuser plate, is insufficient to prevent a separate later from forming along the bottom, and thus scorching?

What I'm having difficulty working through is the strength of the agitator in action, If that makes sense. I don't care that the upfront cost is more as I worked that info my budget. I'm looking for streamlined efficiency so I can extract all the alcohol and not have to mess with a mop wringer ever again, or coolers, or all the headache with my limited setup. And I have limited space.

I'm very appreciative of the feedback, but there are so many different opinions and I can't seem to find any direct video evidence or a forum thread where someone discussed this in depth for a bourbon mash. Maybe I'm typing the wrong keywords in the HD search function
Sweetfeed 100 proof for drinking white
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Whatever else is left goes to the Homefree, because, I hate waste
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Re: Ferment/distil in boiler

Post by Honest_Liberty »

I also realize it may appear that I'm just searching to find someone that will tell me what I want to hear. However, I need to unturn every stone before I decide how and where I'm going to spend money. So please brew with me on this while I ask questions adjacent that may overlap
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Re: Ferment/distil in boiler

Post by Honest_Liberty »

Toxxyc wrote: Thu Mar 18, 2021 3:55 am Then I made a rum wash. Just sugar and molasses, and ran that. Ended up A LOT better. I now know why. I didn't distill crap you don't want in your distillate. So yeah, from now on my washes will be cold crashed to clear before distilling. Period.
Granted, I've only got 35 gallons finished product under my belt since I started this hobby, but I have only ran cloudy strips. I can't think of a sugarhead that didn't have at least half of the trub. The only errors I can pick up on my spirit runs have been greed on the tails side, because I'm very sensitive to the heads. The middle jar is always pure as the driven snow and contains nare an off flavor that I could find. It seems that many here really don't like the idea of the yeast in'ner but my experience has not warranted that concern.

HOWEVER: things may change when the whole lot is in the boiler, and to that effect, I have to heed the warnings or at least accept that my plans may fail miserably, as these gentlemen have been doing this prolly long as I've been alive.


To the point about volume of kettle being 3 times the boiler... I'm simply trying to avoid the necessity of that (along with the headache of the preparation). I do 22-24 gallon ferments, on the grain to end up near 20 gallons. (which also necessitates two strips, which = a solid 7-8 hours on strip day plus the inefficiency of bringing two runs up to boil)
That = (2) 10 gallon HD igloo coolers, split between the grains, TWICE. water boiled twice. I cannot fit 40 lbs of grain into that setup, so I have to split the recipe over 3-4 days to fill up the 24 gallon bucket. It takes up way too many hours, way too much space, and way too much effort to wring through the mop wringer. all this on a 16 gallon still. I seriously can't figure out why anyone would spend any time on this hobby with anything less than that, considering the final output vs time, even with a 16 gallon still. Then again, I'm sure I'm consuming way more alcohol than the average guy here.

As I'm reading this, btw, I am trying to avoid being confrontational or belligerent...although I'm not sure I can accomplish that. I'm bound and determined to reduce the effort on the front end is all.

EDIT: so in my course of research for any onlookers who aren't laughing at me through experience, this is what I'm finding:
only one contributor on this site has told me they have a personal acquaintance that can attest to physically running a setup like I'm discussing with no scorching issue. The complete rest of the wave of responses have been a very confident: ABSOLUTELY NOT! including Hillbilly Stills, who I just contacted to discuss this with about an agitator. His biggest claim was most here, YEAST.

So here we are. I'm basically taking the largest survey I possibly can. Calling everyone I can, and contemplating taking a very expensive risk (but only the agitator because I'm still going to upgrade). To any onlooker, thanks for checking in. I'm doing my darndest to be as thorough as possible while I research how to streamline my process.
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Re: Ferment/distil in boiler

Post by Tater »

Seems this is a trip to find way to make still that takes work out of making good likker with a potstill.
I use a pot still.Sometimes with a thumper
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Re: Ferment/distil in boiler

Post by Honest_Liberty »

Tater wrote: Thu Mar 18, 2021 1:57 pm Seems this is a trip to find way to make still that takes work out of making good likker with a potstill.
I can certainly see that perspective, and maybe so. I'm sure I'll find the balance between upfront workload and space requirements/equipment
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Re: Ferment/distil in boiler

Post by Butch27 »

Well like you have said you have not been able to find anyone who has actually done it and i don't believe you have found anyone who has even tasted product from such a setup. Just a lot of people saying yeast in the boiler is bad because their buddy's great grandpappy heard it from the guy across the creek that it is bad.

Personally I like the ease of distilling out of my fermenter with all in. I do apple brandy and not all grain so that may be a difference in outcomes. if it were me (it is not me so your choice) I would opt for the jacketed boiler and forget about the agitator. I don't know what the difference in the cost is between the two is but I would rather run the jacketed boiler and it has no moving parts to wear out, zero chance of scorching and easier to clean.
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Re: Ferment/distil in boiler

Post by Honest_Liberty »

Butch27 wrote: Thu Mar 18, 2021 4:37 pm Well like you have said you have not been able to find anyone who has actually done it and i don't believe you have found anyone who has even tasted product from such a setup. Just a lot of people saying yeast in the boiler is bad because their buddy's great grandpappy heard it from the guy across the creek that it is bad.

Personally I like the ease of distilling out of my fermenter with all in. I do apple brandy and not all grain so that may be a difference in outcomes. if it were me (it is not me so your choice) I would opt for the jacketed boiler and forget about the agitator. I don't know what the difference in the cost is between the two is but I would rather run the jacketed boiler and it has no moving parts to wear out, zero chance of scorching and easier to clean.
a non jacketed 26 gallon boiler with agitator and 4", 4 plate SS column with perforated copper plates, dephleg, and shotgun condenser is $1350.

a 26 jacketed boiler is $3500

What I am struggling to wrap my head around is the heat transfer aspect. The jacketed boiler still requires an agitator to prevent scorching as far as I can tell. What I can't understand (probably because I'm hyper focused and not actually digesting the criticisms) is how an agitator wouldn't keep the mash moving sufficiently to prevent a layer from building up on the bottom and around the sides. My thought is maybe a cake layer develops on the upper edges on the sidewalls as the volume reduces, but that won't be an issue because the heat applied would be underneath, on a triple layered diffuser plate. The only place scorching would occur is the bottom.

Scorching is my only concern. Hillbilly stills guy claims it is impossible with an agitator and regular gas to make anything worth drinking. Alternatively, there is a long standing member here that is friends with a person who runs the exact setup I'm looking to do, who has never scorched. SO I have all this theory that says no, and one third hand source that says yes. I'm bound and determined to actually prove myself wrong so that I can just go engineer a better wall mounted pneumatic press for the grains and be done with it...but I would still prefer an all in one setup.

If I'm wrong... I'll be eating some serious A** crow on here for a long time.

If I'm right....then maybe I can change the game on the small scale to avoid all that extra effort and equipment. My emotions and stubborn nature says I'm on to something... the logical aspect, from all the other perspectics, says...I'm running a fools errand.
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Re: Ferment/distil in boiler

Post by Butch27 »

Honest_Liberty wrote: Thu Mar 18, 2021 4:45 pm .... a non jacketed 26 gallon boiler with agitator and 4", 4 plate SS column with perforated copper plates, dephleg, and shotgun condenser is $1350.

a 26 jacketed boiler is $3500
That would be a problem. I could never drink enough to justify that. I hardly drink enough to justify what I spent on mine. I am not sure what kind of skills you have but building something yourself might be the way to go. If you are ok with the $1350, it should probably work but I have no hands on experience that says it will.
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