On the use of shells to buffer pH

[skow69]

There may be a down side. Has anyone checked the pH to see what level the shells buffer it to?

Something about this idea always made me a little uncomfortable, but I couldn't put my finger on it. Today, while researching something completely unrelated, I came across it. Here is the thing.

pintoshine said,

I have worked in and around this problem for quite a while.
Lower ph in a mash is a friend of the distiller. After mashing, adjusting the ph down, with your acid of choice, to 4.7 to 4.8 will insure a good bacteria free fermentation.
Then the magic happens. When you apply heat to the mash there are a couple significant things happen. For one the ethyl acetate partially breaks down into ethanol and acetic acid. If you remove the ethanol while it is hot, the acetic acid remains in the spent mash. The acetone does a similar process with the resulting acetaldehyde gassing off and the acetic acid going out with the spent stillage.

If you neutralize the mash you may make it smoother in the fact that there may be less fatty acids near the tails but you lose the benefit of the increased ethanol yield.

[bearriver]

From my experience adding 3 very large handfuls of shells to a 50 gallon sugar based ferment will result in a pH of 3.9 -4.1 shortly after pitching the yeast. The starting pH is 7.0.

Without the shells I get a pH of 3.0 - 3.1 after pitching. It doesn't usually stall but will slow down considerably.

My meter is lab quality and calibrated weekly. The readings are rock solid.

Edit: I would never add shells to an AG ferment, as they are not needed. Sugar washes are a different beast. AG ferments should have enough buffering capacity to avoid pH crashes, while white granulated sugar washes do not.

[thecroweater]

Hence why most of them recipes include citric acid

[Kegg_jam]

I became obsessed with PH after a couple of stalled sugar washes. Adding shells to everything and what not.

Now venturing into AG it feels weird to be lowering PH with backset or acid blend. Gonna have to try the next one without shells to see how it holds up.

[rager]

im in the other side of this . my water is quite low in ph. under 7 closer to 6. by the time Im done mashing and fermenting im under 4. according to my ph strips for whatever they are worth. ive tried calcium carbonate to raise ph with zero success. I blame all my stalled ferments on low ph. im at about 1 out of 4 might stall. id like to get to less than 1 out of 10 stall for any reason. oyster shells are something im seriously looking into to experiment with.

[bearriver]

Hence why most of them recipes include citric acid

Ag recipes or sugar recipes?

If you have a problem with low pH causing stalled ferments, citric acid would only make it worse.

The lemon juice in BW was quickly omitted from my process. It cuts days off the time it takes to finish dry with my water.

[S-Cackalacky]

The use of oyster shells (or seashells) should be based on individual need. If you don't need to add them, then don't add them. Same goes for acid (lemon juice/citric acid) - don't need it, don't add it. The advantage of using oyster shells over something like calcium carbonate, is that they don't seem to give a sudden shot of alkali. Because it's in a crystallized solid form, the acidity of the wash needs to drop considerably before there's a reaction to bring the PH back in balance.

I don't normally add oyster shells to something like SF until I'm a few generations in. When I see the ferment slowing down, I throw in a handful of crushed oyster shells, or a large scallop shell. I don't measure PH. It seems easy enough to add the oyster shells when needed and allow them to bring the PH back in balance. This approach always seems to work well for me.

[DAD300]

I have not tried shells, but I've been looking at using shells. It seems that it may be more self regulating than using powdered Calcium. If the acid isn't there to dissolve the shell it will be self limiting. Anyone agree with that?

[humbledore]

For those of us that dump fermenter yeast cakes down the sink (or reuse them) the shells make a bit of a mess, kind of like dropping fine gravel down your plumbing. If I need to use them again I will use a screened ball, the ones used for spices or teas, so I can get them all out at once.

[Kegg_jam]

If the acid isn't there to dissolve the shell it will be self limiting. Anyone agree with that?

I agree with that. Seems like sea shells hold my PH around 4.5 or so. Could be a couple of points either way since my ph meter hasn't been calibrated recently.

[S-Cackalacky]

For those of us that dump fermenter yeast cakes down the sink (or reuse them) the shells make a bit of a mess, kind of like dropping fine gravel down your plumbing. If I need to use them again I will use a screened ball, the ones used for spices or teas, so I can get them all out at once.

Good idea! Maybe even some cheesecloth tied off with kitchen twine. You could also use some large uncrushed shells. I've used scallop shells of about 3" diameter. Conch shells would be good too. Only problem would be cost and availability. I paid 25 cents each for the scallop shells at a pet shop. The crushed oyster shells were only 25 cents per lb. at Southern States.

[cranky]

I remember NZ Chris posting about doing tests with shells and finding them self regulating. I'm fortunate enough to live close to Puget sound where shells are free and plentiful but I actually don't even test PH. and seldom use shells or adjust it at all. I probably would and will when I get to the point of reusing backset just because of what I read by Chris on it.

[rager]

crazy thing I is I found a bunch of glass jars that were filled with shells at a tag sale last week. I knew of the opportunity to use them but at the time I was more interested in the gallon jugs they were in ......... someone loaded gallons jugs with shells for fun? idk but for a stiller, its win win.

[Jesse]

It was proposed that shells would be better than powdered CaCO3 (calcium carbonate, or chalk). Has anybody done both and compared? i was under the impression shells were made primarily of stuff, so i wouldn't expect them to be any different. Powdered chalk doesn't dissolve in a mash unless the pH is low enough, just like shells.

[thecroweater]

Fond of milk of lime myself

[bearriver]

As stated elsewhere by nzchris, putting your oyster shells is a bag or basket will allow you to weigh them before and after to calculate how much was dissolved.

[NZChris]

My recent rums used 2.4g for 60l & 1.55g for 40l ferments. PH didn't get out of hand. Lowest was about 4.5.

I use large whole sea shells, but any shell will do. Land snails, eggs, grandma's cameo.

I've never tried bones. They are calcium phosphate and calcium carbonate, so might be good in rum, but they would have to be well weathered if you wanted to get rid of any smells.

[apdb]

In my aquarium, I would stick them in a cotton sock. That allows you too smack up em around with a hammer a little bit without a mess. rinse with a hose to get the dust out and your good to go.

[badbird]

I use large whole sea shells, but any shell will do. Land snails, eggs, grandma's cameo.

Cameos are all good but one I wouldn't recommend is cuttlefish! Picked up a heap on the beach awhile ago for a multigrain UJSM, conveniently float on the surface of the wash and stabilized the PH fine and the only problem is the amount of non dissolving connective type tissue in there.

Ended up up with all this nasty snot like material floating around in the wash , it still worked out Ok taste wise but not a good look.

bb

[Donincognito]

Would chicken egg shells work as well?

[still_stirrin]

Interesting timing here guys. I have 10 gallons of all bran I started on Tuesday (48 hours ago) and I see (by this thread) that oyster shell is recommended for sugar washes. My ferment started great; not too fast, not too slow. But I anticipate the pH is crashing because the bubbling has slowed in the last 24 hours.

So, I picked up a 50# sack of oyster shell (more than I'll need in this lifetime) for $10USD. Here: http://www.tractorsupply.com/en/store/m ... hell-50-lb" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

I just put a tablespoon into each 5 gallon carboy and I was greeted with the nice effervescent sizzle. After it stopped the initial liberation of CO2, the speed of the bubbling in the airlock had improved. I'll continue to monitor in the next couple of days to see if I need to add another spoonful to each fermenter.

So, adding to all the comments and observations here...the pH in sugar washes will drop significantly as fermentation progresses. Putting some pH stabilizer in helps the yeast to continue their duty in a suitable environment. I would concur with the experts here that it is prudent to add them, at least after the ferment has peaked its initial activity.

YMMV (but try it and see).
ss

[ranger_ric]

Chicken egg shells certainly do work.. I used them for about 3 ferments in a row. I started out putting about 4 in each 5 gal ferment of UJSSM. I ended up using about 10 in each bucket by the third ferment. They were always totally dissolved EXCEPT that little skin that is under the shell. Because the ferment was using ALL of the eggshells I figured I would break down and get some of the oyster shells. They are pretty cheap and really easy to use. But egg shells do work.

[DAD300]

I've never tried bones. They are calcium phosphate and calcium carbonate, so might be good in rum, but they would have to be well weathered

Weathered at the bottom of the sea!

Pirates and rum made with bones...yar!

pirate f.jpg (7.69 KiB) Viewed 9915 times

[T-Pee]

My ferments run between 4.5 and 5 pH. I don't like to get too involved with the whole process since I've found OS to be self-regulating. I toss a handful in and don't worry about it. It's worked a treat so far on all my sugarheads.

tp

[Greig56]

Hey there! I've been looking for answers on this very subject! I see on a large list of posts that everyone mentions oyster or scallop shells. My prob is putting hands on these! Hense I have been wondering about mussel shells if these would be better or worse, I can put my hands on these fairly easier than the former or latter so been wondering how or if they would work just as well?
Obv I see above egg shells might work just as well, I hadn't thought about them! Doing 23 ltr batches, which is better near 4 or rounded up to 9-10?

I have but 6 washes i've finished and another two on the go -still new at this, so don't want to say I won't try some AG but seems some suger washes and more rum are in my sights! Did 3 batches of rum recently I stripped then combined to finish together which are sooo smooth I will be doing some more! My regular suckle is whiskey-water so tried that with my rum, a 60-70% blended shot with but a touch of water I really can't taste the rum but the hint of it! Think some more is in the cards along with some sugar washes!
I keep seeing shells in rum posts so this question is getting to be a hanging one for me!
Cheers!

[Tater]

Is there any difference between the ph change using inverted sugar?

[S-Cackalacky]

I recently had a problem with an AG using an approximately 3" scallop shell for PH control. The PH going into the fermenter was 5.0, but when I checked the PH near the end of fermentation, it had risen to 6.0. I'm not sure the shells are as important to a single generation AG - maybe putting too much calcium carbonate into the wash. I can understand how they may be more important in the context of multi gen sugarheads where the PH is more likely to go too low. Some shells may even dissolve more easily than others - idk. Please don't take my experience at face value - it only happened the one time as I described. Just wanted to throw it out there that using oyster/seashells may not be necessary (or as important) in some cases.

Posted while Tater was posting.

[firewater69]

Hey there! I've been looking for answers on this very subject! I see on a large list of posts that everyone mentions oyster or scallop shells. My prob is putting hands on these! Hense I have been wondering about mussel shells if these would be better or worse, I can put my hands on these fairly easier than the former or latter so been wondering how or if they would work just as well?
Obv I see above egg shells might work just as well, I hadn't thought about them! Doing 23 ltr batches, which is better near 4 or rounded up to 9-10?

I have but 6 washes i've finished and another two on the go -still new at this, so don't want to say I won't try some AG but seems some suger washes and more rum are in my sights! Did 3 batches of rum recently I stripped then combined to finish together which are sooo smooth I will be doing some more! My regular suckle is whiskey-water so tried that with my rum, a 60-70% blended shot with but a touch of water I really can't taste the rum but the hint of it! Think some more is in the cards along with some sugar washes!
I keep seeing shells in rum posts so this question is getting to be a hanging one for me!
Cheers!

yes, they work fine. I always throw one in my rum ferments. I use live dunder and this helps to balance the ph nicely.

[DAD300]

Ah...I just blew a huge post here...

I got six oyster shells from a local eatery...they throw them away! Washed and scrubbed them in water with a SS Scrubbie. They still stank, so I soaked then in water with added citric acid. Hoped it would cause some quick action and clean the outside. Did, but, still smells a little fishy. Used it this way...anyway.

I added an 98 gram piece of shell to a 2 gallon rice test ferment that was almost finished, and it went from 3.1 - 3.7 in twelve hours and has stayed at 3.9 for two days.

I have done two other tests...I started with a quart of water at 3.0 and added a 87gram oyster shell. Measured ph at 12 hour intervals.

3.0 Ph start, 4.2, 4.8, 5.2, 6.1, 6.7, 7.4, 7.4,...

I have two inexpensive Ph meters and both are calibrated in bought solutions.

Then I went the other extreme, starting at Ph 9.4, 8.8, 8.6, 8.2, 7.7...wait a minute...it's going down?

I started reading about Ph buffering and found there is a relationship between Ph, Gh and Kh...that can be controlled (buffered) by finding a balance between the three.

Per Hydrogen (pH)

The pH of the water is a measure of the balance between the Hydrogen (H+) and Hydroxide (OH) ions in the water. I think most of us know that low pH is acidic and high pH is alkaline or basic. Hence a pH of 5 is slightly acidic water, a pH of 7 is neutral and a pH of 8 is alkaline water.

General Hardness (GH)

This is essentially a measurement of Magnesium and Calcium ions in the water. Again it is measured in the German degrees of hardness scale or parts per million. This is what is generally meant by soft and hard water which are terms people should be familiar with.

Carbonate Hardness (KH)

This is an area where many people get confused. One of the reasons the term alkaline is avoided a bit and the term Basic is used for the pH scale is because this reading is measuring the alkalinity of the water. It is not the same as alkaline.

The alkalinity is a measurement of the waters buffering ability, or its ability to absorb and neutralise acid. Clearly the more alkalinity or the higher the Carbonate Hardness of the water the less likely you will incur pH swings in the water. It is therefore important to get this figure reasonably high to stabilise the water.

Did you guys know all of this? I knew about Ph and Gh but not the relationship.

There is another group of hobbyists that worry about the same things we do in a ferment. Koi pond owners! Just like us they raise critters in a confined environment that shit in the tank and acidify the liquid.

OH and THEY USE OYSTER SHELL AS A BUFFER!

They say that oyster shell will reach an equilibrium between Ph, Gh and Kh at Ph 7.4. Once or if the liquid reached 7.4...the shell will only be active if there is an acid condition that upsets the equilibrium.

Now that's higher than we want for our critters, but it takes a long time to reach that equilibrium. So, during the normal time for a ferment the oyster shell will be trying to balance the Ph as it adds minerals (improving the Gh and Kh). Most of those minerals will also be beneficial to the yeast.

Also, harder water, Gh, the addition of other minerals can slow the Ph change caused by the oyster shells. I don't know what other minerals or that we want to slow it.

OYSTER SHELL
Oyster shell chemically consist of 95% calcium carbonate,3.5% silicate and a trace of other elements like aspartic acid,glycine,calcium phosphate,zinc,manganese,aluminum,... that were in the water it grew in.

So, what else did I learn about Koi ponds and Ph? They also line there Koi ponds with Limestone for the same reason. So I imagine that if you are squeamish about oyster shells, you could use a small block of lime stone or even a concrete block is suggested.

This makes me think of Jack Daniels and their limestone cave spring! Or the old timers using creek water. Most city water is too soft (low minerals). Then we torture or water before the ferment starts! Boiling removes the oxygen, mashing makes it acidic,...it's a wonder the yeast survives at all.

Calcite (limestone)
Limestone is a sedimentary rock composed largely of the minerals calcite and aragonite, which are different crystal forms of calcium carbonate (CaCO3). Most limestone is composed of skeletal fragments of marine organisms such as coral, forams and molluscs.


Shells and minerals...Ever heard of cement fermentation tanks...hmmmm.....http://concretebeertanks.com/concrete-t ... tures.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

[skow69]

-Wow. Thanks, DAD. That cleared up some points for me.

So it sounds like the main difference between using shells and store bought calcium carbonate is the store bought chemical works faster, probably because it is powdered. That and whatever effect there is from the trace minerals increasing hardness. The silica shouldn't have any effect. Aspartic acid and calcium phosphate would tend to lower pH but there is not enough to make any difference, I would think. It would be interesting to compare the store bought chemical sand shells side by side. And with ground up shells, too.

I tried using garden lime one time. It sweetens the soil, right? It didn't work at all. It didn't seem to disolve well, either. Grinding it to dust might have helped.