intentionally infecting a ferment

[jedneck]

I know some of you have done it. What did you use, when did you add it, and how long did you let it work its magic?
I have had lacto infections before and was happy with the outcome. Just looking for more consictansy. I have a 40 gallon ag ferment that is finished. I'm thinking about stripping half and infecting the other half with a cheese starter bacteria and letting it work for a week. Good, bad or ain't gonna make a damn differance.

[3d0g]

Pitch cheese or yogurt culture at the same time as your primary yeast. They bacteria will take a back seat until the yeast finish but then they'll kick into gear. Keep fermenting until you get the sourness you're looking for and then run it.

[Jimbo]

I never intentionally infected a whiskey mash, but I make Belgian sour beer and in those I use Pediocaucus Lactobacillus and Bretenomyces and it takes a long time 6 months+ for them to do their thing. Bacteria are slow critters

[S-Cackalacky]

Brendan has a good thread for developing a sour corn starter - http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... =3&t=46340 . Not sure that's what you're looking for, but at the very least could be a way to isolate the bacteria for your own purposes.

[masonsjax]

I often sour mash beers. Do the mash as usual, then top off my mash tun with ~100F water and stir. When the temp drops to ~125F, I throw in a small handful of uncrushed base malt, place a piece of cling wrap on the surface, pushing out any air bubbles. Close the lid and cover the cooler mash tun with blankets. I take samples from the drain over the next day or so until the sourness is to my liking, usually 24 hours is perfect. Then I collect to my kettle, boil, chill, and ferment as usual. Works great for me.

[Brutal]

My horse is in back of the cart, again. I soak my grains before I mash them. Letting them sit for a day or two and the bacterial critters have their way with them. Then heat to 190 with steam injection and invite my yeasty friends to the party when it cools. This keeps the infection from going too long and getting out of control, while adding whatever elements they add to the mash. I haven't targeted a specific infection yet, just let the crap that rode in on the grains have it's day before becoming yeast nutrient.

[DAD300]

I have added lacto tablets from the health food isle near the end of a ferment. As the sugar depletes they will outpace the yeast.

[3d0g]

I never intentionally infected a whiskey mash, but I make Belgian sour beer and in those I use Pediocaucus Lactobacillus and Bretenomyces and it takes a long time 6 months+ for them to do their thing. Bacteria are slow critters

Actually, bacteria are insanely fast critters. Just think about how lovely dumped spent grains smell after 12 or so hours.

Beer is a different animal entirely. The hops heavily suppress bacterial activity (remember that's why hops were used in the 1st place).

[Jimbo]

Yes hops slows down lacto bigtime. Anything more than 8 IBU which is nothing. Here's some interesting reading on bacteria types and innoculation.

Brettanomyces (Brett) – The king of wild yeasts in the brewing world. It helps to breakdown dextrins (chains of sugars too long for Saccharomyces to ferment) and can add a wide range of characteristic esters and phenols to sour beers. These can range from nice ones like pineapple, apple, and pear; through ones that may or may not be appreciated like horse blanket and farmhouse/barnyard; to the vile smoky, Band-Aid, and fecal batch ruiners. These flavors depend mostly on the strain of Brett, but are also influenced by the types of acids and alcohols available.

Pediococcus (Pedio) – Produces most of the lactic acid in most sour beers. It often takes several months to really get working. Certainly strains can cause your beer to become “sick,” that is to become very viscous for a period of time (this has only happened once to me, but it passed after a couple months leaving a nicely sour beer). It can make your beer taste buttery for a time as well, but the Brett will clean this up in time (never use Pedio without Brett). Pedio also plays a role is the production of some traditional sausages.

Lactobacillus (Lacto) – The only time lacto plays a big role is in Berliner Weisses, the rest of the time the IBUs are high enough to keep it at bay (>8 IBU). It can sour a beer faster than Pedio, and is also the dominant player in yogurt production.

Inoculation: I have gotten the best results adding all of the microbes at the start of the fermentation together with the primary Saccharomyces strain. I don’t generally make a starter for the bugs unless I am using pure cultures (for something like a 100% Brett beer). This is because the different microbes have different required conditions for growth. Yeast strains (including Brett) need oxygen, Pedio on the other hand can’t deal with oxygen. pH can also be an issue since the acid produced for bacteria can damage yeast cells (remember this when considering waiting to pitch a primary yeast to give the bacteria a head start).

Pretty much any standard yeast will do for primary fermentation. I have made great sour beers with American/English/Scottish/Belgian Ale, German Lager, and Saison strains. Some character from the primary yeast may remain in the finished beer, but most of the esters will be destroyed by the various other microbes (primarily Brettanomyces) over the long secondary fermentation. The biggest impact the primary yeast will have on the finished beer is the attenuation level (low attenuating strains will leave more sugars for the other microbes leading to beers with more sourness and funk).

I have not gotten enough sourness by doing a clean fermentation followed by microbes in secondary. This seems to work in barrels where the bugs are receiving some oxygen through the wood, but in a carboy the resulting beer generally lacks the sour assault that I crave. Adding microbes after primary fermentation is a fine idea if you just want some funk because Brett seems to be able to produce esters without a lot of gravity change.

If after 6 months or so the beer still has not shown any signs of souring I will often add the dregs from a few more bottles or sour beers to try to kick things off. As a last resort I may also add some malt extract to feed the microbes.

[Odin]

What I do with my rum is I use backset to make a dunder pit. I add some dunder to the low wines prior to a finishing run ... because I don't want to infect my ferment. I feel that I can't control it very much, when I go the "infected fermentaton" route.

Regards, Odin.

[Danespirit]

Pitch cheese or yogurt culture at the same time as your primary yeast. They bacteria will take a back seat until the yeast finish but then they'll kick into gear. Keep fermenting until you get the sourness you're looking for and then run it.

How does the ferment benefit from the yogurt culture...?
Would the culture simply be on "standby" until the yeast has finished...? Seem to me the alcohol, would kill the culture..
3d0g ...you are one of the more experienced in here with ferments, could you kindly explain how it will work?

[pulsetech]

Always wondered weather adding something like this would work http://www.yakult.com.au/product-key.html I drink this stuff
its meant to be pretty good for you.
live Lactobacillus casei Shirota strain is what they say is in it.

Worth a try ?

[MDH]

Pitch cheese or yogurt culture at the same time as your primary yeast. They bacteria will take a back seat until the yeast finish but then they'll kick into gear. Keep fermenting until you get the sourness you're looking for and then run it.

Just FYI Acidophilus is a strain that produces a massive amount of aldehydes. Nothing massively wrong as these can be taken off with heads but I highly recommend cultivated lactobacillus casei. Sometimes this is offered as a probiotic but there are a few brewing sources.

I just want to add that throwing cheese in is also very hazardous. We have literally had a parmeggiano run away with a batch of Wheat Whisky before. This was from eating snacks with the shredded cheese before getting to work. The results were horrible and we have not had them again since abstaining!

[3d0g]

How does the ferment benefit from the yogurt culture...?
Would the culture simply be on "standby" until the yeast has finished...? Seem to me the alcohol, would kill the culture..
3d0g ...you are one of the more experienced in here with ferments, could you kindly explain how it will work?

Here's an article from the whiskey science blog that does a pretty good job explaining LAB behavior. I do agree with MDH that in a pro environment a bit more caution is warranted, if for nothing more than repeatability, but yogurt cultures from the homebrew store are a good way for folks to get various cocktails of LAB (look for strains like L.fermentum, L.paracasei, L.brevis, L.acidophilus and L.delbrueckii).

[BoomTown]

love this forum, it always has answers to question that keep charging round the corners of the art.

I've decided to collect several fermented batches (wort or beer?) into a large vat and allow them to settle, then syphon off the clear to distll. Hoping to start using an internal electric element still I've got my eye on to replace my little 25L (hotplate heated) pot.

But.....

There is apparently a secondary 'infestation' occuring. I've now got a tri-layer thing developing, the suspended grain powders and yeast are indeed dropping to the bottom, and the bulk of it is clearing nicely, but there now a new, sudsy looking cap formed in the vat. It looks like a lacto infection I encountered a couple of years ago. As this is purely accidental, and sort of an experimental mode, and I'm several weeks away form getting my new still, I'm going ahead with the project.

Anyone care to predict how this 2nd infestation might impact the spirit we hope to make?

[francis]

How about adding salt ? Salts favors lactobactillus. It will help you distill too, by making the water portion less volatile.

I do a lot of lacto fermenting with just wild yeasts. Spicy purple cabbage kraut for example. I just put cut up cabbage and chilies into a 5% brine (by weight) and keep air out.

People who don't want to use wild yeasts, seem to go for Caldwell's starter: http://www.culturesforhealth.com/caldwe ... ables.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

[MDH]

love this forum, it always has answers to question that keep charging round the corners of the art.

I've decided to collect several fermented batches (wort or beer?) into a large vat and allow them to settle, then syphon off the clear to distll. Hoping to start using an internal electric element still I've got my eye on to replace my little 25L (hotplate heated) pot.

But.....

There is apparently a secondary 'infestation' occuring. I've now got a tri-layer thing developing, the suspended grain powders and yeast are indeed dropping to the bottom, and the bulk of it is clearing nicely, but there now a new, sudsy looking cap formed in the vat. It looks like a lacto infection I encountered a couple of years ago. As this is purely accidental, and sort of an experimental mode, and I'm several weeks away form getting my new still, I'm going ahead with the project.

Anyone care to predict how this 2nd infestation might impact the spirit we hope to make?

Keep your fermentation under airlock and you will not have any of what you are describing. These are generally not good for your ferment.

[engunear]

Always wondered weather adding something like this would work http://www.yakult.com.au/product-key.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow I drink this stuff
its meant to be pretty good for you.
live Lactobacillus casei Shirota strain is what they say is in it.

Worth a try ?

Absolutely! I always add 0.5tbs per 10 lit natural yogurt to my ferments, and am ready to try other cultures. The reasons (following Bryan Davis from his book) are

1) Lactobacillis creates lactic acid which comes over in the still. This is surprising as it has a high boiling point (140C) but you can taste it the distillate in a high lacto ferment at the end (the joys of azeotropes). Lactic acid forms ethyl lactate during ageing - this has a pleasant buttery taste obvious in many scotches.

2) Since whiskey recipes do not boil, the wash always has lots of bacteria. If you add your own, you get some choice on which one dominates. When I have added too much yogurt (2 tbsp), the wash gets really sour and yield is down. BTW, rye has more bacteria than barley and I suspect the high temperature (80C) step in rye whiskey recipes help by reducing the bacterial load.

Taking a tablespoon out of what is already in the fridge seems easier than buying specialty cultures. So yakult, kefir etc all seem like good ideas to me.

Let us know how you go!

[S-Cackalacky]

I have plans to do a recipe with a similar addition, but until I do an experimental run, it will remain a secret.

[pistachio_nut]

I never intentionally infected a whiskey mash, but I make Belgian sour beer and in those I use Pediocaucus Lactobacillus and Bretenomyces and it takes a long time 6 months+ for them to do their thing. Bacteria are slow critters

Actually, bacteria are insanely fast critters. Just think about how lovely dumped spent grains smell after 12 or so hours.

Beer is a different animal entirely. The hops heavily suppress bacterial activity (remember that's why hops were used in the 1st place).

You don't say.

[Danespirit]

As i have read hops are a member of the cannabis family.
I won't go for to much details about those plants, as it's not good postingetikette in this forum and don't belong here.
They are known for their antiseptic properties (widely used by native habitants).
So more than likely to kill any bacteria, including mononuclear eukariots like yeast.
The amount of hops i suppose, is directly related to how many yeast cells would survive.
Maybe some folks with beerbrewing experience could chime in with further information about this subject..?

[moosemilk]

Subscribing to this. Interesting.

[pulsetech]

I have a double batch going right now. 60% feed corn. 10% rye malt. 30% 2 row. Came up to 1.070
everything was mixed together and us 05 was pitched.
Mixed thoroughly and then split to 2 separate fermenters 40L each
1 bottle of yakult will be added to 1 fermenter in 36 to 48 hours.

[masonsjax]

Sour beers don't usually have hops added because they inhibit lactobacillus activity. Some styles, particularly those that are sour mashed prior to boiling can use hops to varying degrees. Very sour beer doesn't usually taste good when highly hopped ao it's fairly rare. Traditional open fermented lambic styles used aged hops to avoid hop flavors while slowing down lacto activity which gives the other wild yeast, brett, and bacteria a chance to get to work without making pure lactic acid. Modern brewing techniques allow for better control over what gets in the fermentor to begin with, so most sour brewers today (outside of Belgium brewers still using the traditional equipment) don't add hops at all.

I've never brewed with cannabis.

[Jimbo]

Here's a technique that works good for Berliner Weiss, sour beer.

sealed kettle held at 90f , pH dropped to 4.3 to avoid enteric and acetic bugs, triblend Lactobacillus pitched and drawing every 12 hours until 3.3-3.5 pH. Finish with desired yeast. No reason it wouldnt work on any mash. Point is to give the lacto a prime environment to rapidly achieve yoru sour goal, and THEN let the yeast at it to finish.

[likker liker]

I feel like I'm opening myself up for a lot of criticism but here goes. I'm an outlaw distiller and an outlaw cheese maker. Many years ago about a year into learning to make cheese I realized that the two hobbies go together, in that I keep living culture that I can use for both. So if you don't already know you can buy cheese cultures and store them in the freezer for many years. Here's a two pictures of my cheese culture and towels rapped around 4gl ss pot, that is the yogurt (slur )

[3d0g]

I've used a lot of cheese and yogurt packs like those but never made cheese or yogurt

After tons of testing, I found exactly what Jimbo said - temp and pH is really the key. Now I just sprinkle some dry malt on the mash once the right conditions are met. Let it sit overnight and it's pucker city.

[likker liker]

That absolutely that does work and works great. I just did a scotch that way, fantastic. myself I've done this stuff for so long and I'm very comfortable with that I'm doing and how to get the flavors I want, I find it changing to force the flavoring I want.

[3d0g]

Yeah, I had great results with the various culture packets from the homebrew store, but I've got to factor in the costs as I scale to 250 gal batches. Letting the grain and Terroir work its magic sounds good to me.

[pulsetech]

Mash is down to 1.010 already so in goes the yakult into fermenter number 1