Lacto Infection

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Re: Lacto Infection

Postby der wo » Sun Jul 23, 2017 10:14 am

Wino2Distill wrote:
NZChris wrote:Its a patience thing. If you run a vomit smelling wash, you lock in the butyric acid, if you wait for it to convert into pineapple, you lock in ethyl butyrate.


I haven't run them yet. So all I have to do is wait for this chemical conversion to happen?

I think the distilling will do the job. High abv and high temperature. Butyric acid converts easily to an ester. And if still some vomit smell comes into the distillate, it will go away fast. I don't think it needs patience.
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I often write about using chemicals like for example sulfuric acid. Some are very dangerous. Before you use them, inform yourself about what you can do to work safely with them.
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Re: Lacto Infection

Postby Wino2Distill » Sun Jul 23, 2017 10:25 am

Great, I'll run these this week. Will let you know the results.
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Re: Lacto Infection

Postby Wino2Distill » Wed Jul 26, 2017 11:02 am

I've been beer stripping non stop since yesterday (took a break for sleep). Head and hearts combined (45% alc) : strong dominance of overripe kiwi, which I assume is a mix of butyric and it's ester. The tails smell the same plus tail's smell. Overall I'm surprised how clean the profile is. I'm looking forward to comparing this with a non infected mash.
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Re: Lacto Infection

Postby Wino2Distill » Wed Dec 27, 2017 4:44 pm

der wo wrote:
Wino2Distill wrote:
NZChris wrote:Its a patience thing. If you run a vomit smelling wash, you lock in the butyric acid, if you wait for it to convert into pineapple, you lock in ethyl butyrate.


I haven't run them yet. So all I have to do is wait for this chemical conversion to happen?

I think the distilling will do the job. High abv and high temperature. Butyric acid converts easily to an ester. And if still some vomit smell comes into the distillate, it will go away fast. I don't think it needs patience.


Der Wo, I need help with these low wines. I have 20L of 45% that after a few months still smell like rotten kiwi fruit. A winemaker friend said it smelled like vomit, which confirms my suspicion that there's butyric acid in there. I'd like to do a spirit run on this so that I can combine with a fairly neutral spirit of the same bill that I have and fill this darned change charred barrel once and for all.
Shall I add acid to force the esterification? I can only buy food grade sulfuric by the 20L pale, which I won't do. I do have citric, malic and tartaric, but I'm not sure if those are strong enough.
I also read somewhere here that yeast will do the esterification at the end of fermentations so I could add small amounts of the low wines to fermentations but that would involve quite a few fermentations, which I want to avoid.

Any thoughts?
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Re: Lacto Infection

Postby zapata » Wed Dec 27, 2017 11:24 pm

Battery acid is available worldwide in small amounts. Check the msds to make sure it's just sulphuric. I really dont think you need food grade for something you are going to distill.

But these are low wines? Why not just do a spirit run and see what happens? Do a long slow heatup if you really want to give it every chance to esterize.
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Re: Lacto Infection

Postby Shine0n » Thu Dec 28, 2017 11:23 am

cut it down to 30% and add the sulfuric acid, wait a week and do a spirit run.

I've had ferments and dunder smell of vomit but once diluted with low wines or ran in the spirit run it all changed to pineapple. I've not had low wines smell of such but still I think the acid would help it out, and before you run the vomit smelling stuff add the acid to see if the change happens as I wouldn't think it would running as is.
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Re: Lacto Infection

Postby kiwi Bruce » Thu Dec 28, 2017 12:36 pm

Wino2Distill you don't need very much H2SO4 to make this work,from everything I've read so far, you could use Hydrochloric and phosphoric acid also, if this is easier to get. The other organic acids, I don't think, will create the esterification. Use pH papers and lower the pH (raise the acid amount) to 5. If you just can't get it...look on line for the prep...you can made H2SO4 with Epsom salts and hydrochloric acid, just be careful...Kiwi
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Re: Lacto Infection

Postby kiwi Bruce » Thu Dec 28, 2017 1:46 pm

Wrong...sorry about that..."you can made H2SO4 with Epsom salts and hydrochloric acid" it's actually Oxalic acid which is sold in hardware stores as "Wood Bleach" and "Rust remover"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ePmbRCiLagE
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Re: Lacto Infection

Postby zapata » Thu Dec 28, 2017 3:17 pm

That is interesting and I've certainly done my share of diy chemistry, but every car part store in the US sells sulphuric acid for $10 or less. I'd be surprised if that isnt true worldwide.
If one is scared of "Battery acid" many aquarium or pond "ph down" products are simply diluted sulphuric acid. Msds sheets are available for these too.
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Re: Lacto Infection

Postby kiwi Bruce » Thu Dec 28, 2017 3:59 pm

+1 zapata...aquarium or pond "ph down" products !
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Re: Lacto Infection

Postby Wino2Distill » Thu Dec 28, 2017 4:05 pm

I can easily get lab grade sulfuric acid from a lab I work with, but the chemist warned me that it wasn't pure and shouldn't be used for food stuff. Maybe it's fine for distillation. Not so sure about battery acid!
So the protocol would be to reduce to 30% alc, and add how much acid at what strength?
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Re: Lacto Infection

Postby kiwi Bruce » Thu Dec 28, 2017 4:10 pm

Wino, just use the sulfuric drop by drop, until the pH drops to 5. Simple pH papers from a lab or brew stop will do the trick.
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Re: Lacto Infection

Postby Shine0n » Thu Dec 28, 2017 4:16 pm

Car battery acid is diluted sulfuric acid, the amount depends on how much low wines you have. der wo was the man on this subject but he has been out for a while now or I just haven't seen him around.

He has a thread where he is using the acid and it's amounts on set amount of low wines and their %.

I'll look because I can't remember exactly where but he goes into great detail of his protocols, amounts, fermentation and distillation, the whole works.
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Re: Lacto Infection

Postby SaltyStaves » Thu Dec 28, 2017 4:43 pm

Take great care around Sulfuric acid. I came into contact with it three decades ago and still have the scar and memory of the pain and discomfort it can inflict.
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Re: Lacto Infection

Postby Shine0n » Thu Dec 28, 2017 6:24 pm

He does emphasize on safety as I did not :oops:

Anyone who uses acid should know how to handle it in a proper Manor or avoid using all together.

My bad on the oversight, I know better... SLAP of the hand!
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Re: Lacto Infection

Postby zapata » Fri Dec 29, 2017 10:26 am

Oh yeah, that...
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Re: Lacto Infection

Postby Wino2Distill » Fri Jan 05, 2018 8:00 pm

Sulfuric acid is not that fast acting on skin so it wouldn't be useful as such.

Anyhow, according to this http://www.easychem.com.au/the-acidic-environment/esterification/esterification-and-catalysis, not much is needed for the reaction.
I managed to get 100ml of 98% h2so4. I'll do some heat testing with various concentrations in small quantities of my funky low wines. I'll report back.
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Re: Lacto Infection

Postby Shine0n » Sun Jan 07, 2018 4:51 am

I can't recall the exact threads but I know for a fact that der wo done experiments with the use of the sulfuric acid and reached conclusions and posted on his results.

I also remember him saying something about using less of this and more of that, I need to look again myself to refresh but it was definitely an informative thread and findings.

I've not done any acids because of his experiments but I've got my own pits and funky stuff going so we feed off each others posts.
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Re: Lacto Infection

Postby fizzix » Sun Jan 07, 2018 5:00 am

was this it? Der Wo & sulphuric
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Re: Lacto Infection

Postby Wino2Distill » Sun Jan 07, 2018 7:26 am

I have found in a later post that he recommends 10ml acid in 10L of low wines so that is what I am running now through my still in short reflux mode.
I did tests last night (1 and 2% acid) in small mason jars sealed and heated for one hour (not boiled as they could blow up). This morning both smelled much "cleaner" than the control. It's not clear to me if vomit smell is all gone as I never could really smell that in the first place (others definitely could), but the odour is much more potent and monochromatic. It's basically super concentrated synthetic pineapple.

I'll let you know what the spirit run with Der Wo's concentration does.
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Re: Lacto Infection

Postby Wino2Distill » Tue Jan 09, 2018 8:20 pm

So it seems to have worked. A strong pineapple/bubble gum flavour came through the entire run except for the very last tails. By smell I think the ester's (or esters') concentration was proportional to the proof. I had a few people smell and taste it and they thought it was pleasant. Definitely no more vomit, but I still consider the perfume rather strange and hard to define. It is now in a barrel. We'll see how it evolves.
Did the sulfuric do the trick? No way to know for sure as I did not do a control run without it, but considering the theory, I believe so.
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Re: Lacto Infection

Postby zapata » Wed Jan 10, 2018 1:19 pm

Cool, awesome work!
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