Proper Scotch Mashing

Production methods from starch to sugars.

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Kruger1801
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Proper Scotch Mashing

Post by Kruger1801 »

Hi All,

Just posted this on the Aussie Distillers forum - would love some input from HD.

I've been searching for some decent info regarding Scotch distilleries' teqniques for mashing - and the rest of the process as well.
All info is generally heavily guarded as I'm sure you already know.
I Just came across this mashing procedure in a Youtube vid, and would like to know what you guys make of it.

Image

I think its from either Strathisla or Auchentoshan distillery...

Link to video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZNe4ZRFx9oY" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

I recon whats happening here is that they are mashing at 62°C for 2.5 Hours as step 1 by adding 20K Liters @ 65.5°C water to the grains, then addition of 7K liters water @ 76°C to raise mash temp to 67 or 68°C as step 2, then step 3 as mash out, and step 4 as sparge?

What are your thoughts?

Super keen to get as close as I can to the method the Scott's use in their distilleries.

Any info would be greatly appreciated!

Cheers :thumbup:
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der wo
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Re: Proper Scotch Mashing

Post by der wo »

No. They don't add water. They lauter between all waters. In a 4 water system normally the last 2 waters are used for the next mash. Only the first two waters are for the current mash.

http://www.wormtub.com/distilleries.php" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
Very interesting data from: Pulteney, Talisker, Abelour, Ardbeg, Bowmore, Bruichladdich, Bunnahabhain, Caol Ila, Lagavulin and Laphroaig.
In this way, imperialism brings catastrophe as a mode of existence back from the periphery of capitalist development to its point of departure. - Rosa Luxemburg
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Kruger1801
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Re: Proper Scotch Mashing

Post by Kruger1801 »

der wo wrote:No. They don't add water. They lauter between all waters. In a 4 water system normally the last 2 waters are used for the next mash. Only the first two waters are for the current mash.

http://www.wormtub.com/distilleries.php" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
Very interesting data from: Pulteney, Talisker, Abelour, Ardbeg, Bowmore, Bruichladdich, Bunnahabhain, Caol Ila, Lagavulin and Laphroaig.
Epic!
Thanks for the link, very interesting. This is exactly what I was looking for.

Much more info than I've found on the forums. Thanks again!

Cheers :clap:
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der wo
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Re: Proper Scotch Mashing

Post by der wo »

The youtube channel of whisky.com has many distillery visits videos:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCnCE0- ... distillery" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
(I opened their channel and typed the search word "distillery")
Not everything they say is 100% correct. The visitors are whisky sellers, not distillers. And of course the distilleries always want to point out, that their way is the best and only one. But interesting videos anyway.
In this way, imperialism brings catastrophe as a mode of existence back from the periphery of capitalist development to its point of departure. - Rosa Luxemburg
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Kruger1801
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Re: Proper Scotch Mashing

Post by Kruger1801 »

der wo wrote:The youtube channel of whisky.com has many distillery visits videos:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCnCE0- ... distillery" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
(I opened their channel and typed the search word "distillery")
Not everything they say is 100% correct. The visitors are whisky sellers, not distillers. And of course the distilleries always want to point out, that their way is the best and only one. But interesting videos anyway.
Awesome, will definitely check the videos out.
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Kruger1801
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Re: Proper Scotch Mashing

Post by Kruger1801 »

der wo wrote:No. They don't add water. They lauter between all waters. In a 4 water system normally the last 2 waters are used for the next mash. Only the first two waters are for the current mash.

http://www.wormtub.com/distilleries.php" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
Very interesting data from: Pulteney, Talisker, Abelour, Ardbeg, Bowmore, Bruichladdich, Bunnahabhain, Caol Ila, Lagavulin and Laphroaig.
Hope you don't mind der wo, just shared your answer to my question on the AD forum?
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der wo
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Re: Proper Scotch Mashing

Post by der wo »

No propblem.

When I found wormtub.com I made a .txt file with notes. Unfortunately attaching here is not possible. And converting to pdf doesn't work well with the wordwraps and other things. So here two screenshots and a bit copy&paste. Perhaps you find something useful:
wormtub1.jpg
wormtub2.jpg
ppm malt / ppm spirit = average 45%, Bowmore/ Caol Ila 36%, Laphroaig 58%

total mashing water (without last water or last two waters) per kg malt = average 5.3l, 4.8 Caol Ila, 6.2 Laphroaig

abv wash = av 7.9, Bruichladdich 6-7, Lagavulin 8.9%, weekend more

Yeast per liter mash = average 3g, 2.3 Lagavulin, 4.2 Bruichladdich

Length of fermentation = average 70h
weekday = average 58h, 48h Pulteney Abelour Bowmore, Caol Ila 80, the expensive ones longer
weekend = av 82h, 55h Lagavulin (wie jeden Tag) und 60h Abelour, Caol Ila 120h

Wash still charge / volume = aver 66%, 47% Bunnahabhain, 85% Lagavulin
Duration stripping run = average 4.8h, 3h Abelour, 8h Bowmore(largest wash still)
Lyne Arm: -descending: Abelour, Bruichladdich, Caol Ila, Lagavulin(steeply desc.)
-straight: Bowmore
-ascending: Ardbeg, Laphroaig
End of stripping run: 0.1-1%, 0.1% Lagavulin, Bunnahabhain 0.5%, 1% Ardbeg Bowmore Caol Ila Laphroaig
volume of low wines / volume of mash = 29%(Bruichladdich) 37%(Abelour)
Rising abv low wines after adding feints = 22.5->27% Bruichladdich

Spirit still charge / volume = aver 74%, Caol Ila 39%, Lagavulin 95%, Laphroaig "near cap."
Strength of Spirit Still Charge = 25-28%
Lyne Arm: -descending: Abelour, Bruichladdich, Lagavulin, Caol Ila
-straight: Bunnahabhain
-ascending: Ardbeg, Bowmore, Laphroaig
Duration spirit run = av 7.1h, Laphroaig 5h (smallest still), 10h Lagavulin (large still)
Duration foreshots / duration total = av 6.3%, Ardbeg 1.9%, Laohroaig 15%
Duration feints / duration total = av 46%, 35% Abelour, 55% Bowmore
End of hearts = av 63%, Lagavulin 59%, Bruichladdich 71%
Distilling strength = av 69%, 67.5% Laphroaig, 72% Bruichladdich
Distilling strength / strength of spirit still charge = av 2.6, Bowmore Caol Ila 2.5, Ardbeg 2.8
Storage strength = 6 x 63.5%, Abelour 69.1, Bruichladdich 71-72%


Ardbeg: Ordinary. Both lyne arms ascendens+purifier. Because of that or because of cuts, despite the normal end of hearts relatively high total abv. Mainly JD, 50% first 50% second fill.
Bowmore: hot water, short ferment, low abv (high FG?). Very large wash stills, long stripping runs. Very long feints at the spirit run -> short hearts?
Bruichladdich: Mainly first fill
Bunnahabhain: 90% first fill hogsheads, 10% sherry
Caol Ila: 100% second and third hogs and barrels
Lagavulin: 99.5% third fill hogs, rest sherry butts third fill
laphroaig: 100% first fill, mainly Makers

butt 500l
hogs 250l enlarged barrel
barrel 200l

Ardbeg and Tailsker have "purifiers"
In this way, imperialism brings catastrophe as a mode of existence back from the periphery of capitalist development to its point of departure. - Rosa Luxemburg
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Kruger1801
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Re: Proper Scotch Mashing

Post by Kruger1801 »

der wo wrote:Perhaps you find something useful
Thanks again for the awesome info!
I'm going to try and replicate a smaller batch according to the Caol Ila data as well as I can, and see what happens.
Have you ever tried to clone one of these? I know equipment and ingredients will have a massive impact on the product, but really curious to know what a home distillers outcome will be...

Doing a tour/tasting at the James Sedgwick distillery this coming weekend, I allready have a list of questions for them :ebiggrin:

They do Three Ships Whisky and Bain's Single Grain Whisky - Not sure if you guys get their products, but I think its quite good for outside Scotland/Ireland.

Cheers!
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der wo
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Re: Proper Scotch Mashing

Post by der wo »

Kruger1801 wrote:I'm going to try and replicate a smaller batch according to the Caol Ila data as well as I can, and see what happens.
Have you ever tried to clone one of these?
No. Cloning is impossible I think. It's one of the beginners mistakes, that for example one thinks he only needs the same grain bill like Wild Turkey and will get this flavor. But in reality 10 or 14% rye makes only a small difference.
And perhaps you noticed, that different sources give out different data. Compare the wormtub data of Caol Ila and watch the Caol Ila distillery video from whisky.com. Unfortunately very different. For example the fermentation time, wormtub writes, that it is very long, in the video it's very short. For me Caol Ila tastes like a long ferment, but I am not sure. And perhaps Caol Ila has changed the process. Before 2000 all their Whisky was selled to the blend industry. I think the average numbers I calculated are in the ballpark. But probably there are some wrong details at wormtub.com.
In this way, imperialism brings catastrophe as a mode of existence back from the periphery of capitalist development to its point of departure. - Rosa Luxemburg
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Kruger1801
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Re: Proper Scotch Mashing

Post by Kruger1801 »

der wo wrote: No. Cloning is impossible I think. It's one of the beginners mistakes
I agree 100%. Just curious to see what comes out the other end if you were to follow the data...
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Re: Proper Scotch Mashing

Post by der wo »

When reading wormtub I often find something what matches perfectly to the taste I know from the Whisky. And you can copy some details. But not the context of the details. For example the feints rerunning system is extreme important I think. You cannot replace feinty low wines and tight cuts with clean low wines and wide cuts. And the much larger still size has some effect too for sure. You can try to imitate this by using a bit reflux, you will achieve a good quality, but a different taste.
If we simplify it:
You get "more" taste with:
-higher mash abv
-longer ferment
-more complete filling the stills
-fast distilling
-short riser
-descending lyne arm
-late tails cut
and many more.
All distilleries have a combination of details, which increase the taste, and other details, which clean the taste. So copying one of the details, which say increases the taste, will get you 0% nearer to the taste you want to copy.
In this way, imperialism brings catastrophe as a mode of existence back from the periphery of capitalist development to its point of departure. - Rosa Luxemburg
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Re: Proper Scotch Mashing

Post by Kruger1801 »

Makes sense
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kiwi Bruce
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Re: Proper Scotch Mashing

Post by kiwi Bruce »

How do you think the yeast plays into this picture ?
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Re: Proper Scotch Mashing

Post by just sayin »

Totally fascinating post! Thanks for pulling it back to life, Kiwi.
Yeast is a major element in the flavor profiles of each of our favorite whiskys, for that reason many distilleries carefully propagate and gaurd their own distinctive proprietary cultivar of yeast.
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Re: Proper Scotch Mashing

Post by jon1163 »

der wo wrote:No propblem.

When I found wormtub.com I made a .txt file with notes. Unfortunately attaching here is not possible. And converting to pdf doesn't work well with the wordwraps and other things. So here two screenshots and a bit copy&paste. Perhaps you find something useful:
wormtub1.jpg
wormtub2.jpg
ppm malt / ppm spirit = average 45%, Bowmore/ Caol Ila 36%, Laphroaig 58%

total mashing water (without last water or last two waters) per kg malt = average 5.3l, 4.8 Caol Ila, 6.2 Laphroaig

abv wash = av 7.9, Bruichladdich 6-7, Lagavulin 8.9%, weekend more

Yeast per liter mash = average 3g, 2.3 Lagavulin, 4.2 Bruichladdich

Length of fermentation = average 70h
weekday = average 58h, 48h Pulteney Abelour Bowmore, Caol Ila 80, the expensive ones longer
weekend = av 82h, 55h Lagavulin (wie jeden Tag) und 60h Abelour, Caol Ila 120h

Wash still charge / volume = aver 66%, 47% Bunnahabhain, 85% Lagavulin
Duration stripping run = average 4.8h, 3h Abelour, 8h Bowmore(largest wash still)
Lyne Arm: -descending: Abelour, Bruichladdich, Caol Ila, Lagavulin(steeply desc.)
-straight: Bowmore
-ascending: Ardbeg, Laphroaig
End of stripping run: 0.1-1%, 0.1% Lagavulin, Bunnahabhain 0.5%, 1% Ardbeg Bowmore Caol Ila Laphroaig
volume of low wines / volume of mash = 29%(Bruichladdich) 37%(Abelour)
Rising abv low wines after adding feints = 22.5->27% Bruichladdich

Spirit still charge / volume = aver 74%, Caol Ila 39%, Lagavulin 95%, Laphroaig "near cap."
Strength of Spirit Still Charge = 25-28%
Lyne Arm: -descending: Abelour, Bruichladdich, Lagavulin, Caol Ila
-straight: Bunnahabhain
-ascending: Ardbeg, Bowmore, Laphroaig
Duration spirit run = av 7.1h, Laphroaig 5h (smallest still), 10h Lagavulin (large still)
Duration foreshots / duration total = av 6.3%, Ardbeg 1.9%, Laohroaig 15%
Duration feints / duration total = av 46%, 35% Abelour, 55% Bowmore
End of hearts = av 63%, Lagavulin 59%, Bruichladdich 71%
Distilling strength = av 69%, 67.5% Laphroaig, 72% Bruichladdich
Distilling strength / strength of spirit still charge = av 2.6, Bowmore Caol Ila 2.5, Ardbeg 2.8
Storage strength = 6 x 63.5%, Abelour 69.1, Bruichladdich 71-72%


Ardbeg: Ordinary. Both lyne arms ascendens+purifier. Because of that or because of cuts, despite the normal end of hearts relatively high total abv. Mainly JD, 50% first 50% second fill.
Bowmore: hot water, short ferment, low abv (high FG?). Very large wash stills, long stripping runs. Very long feints at the spirit run -> short hearts?
Bruichladdich: Mainly first fill
Bunnahabhain: 90% first fill hogsheads, 10% sherry
Caol Ila: 100% second and third hogs and barrels
Lagavulin: 99.5% third fill hogs, rest sherry butts third fill
laphroaig: 100% first fill, mainly Makers

butt 500l
hogs 250l enlarged barrel
barrel 200l

Ardbeg and Tailsker have "purifiers"
Tagging this for hours and hours of reading when I get the time.

On another note, Der Wo always amazes me with his knowledge. I'm not smart enough to decipher half the stuff he types but I like to pretend I can.
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Re: Proper Scotch Mashing

Post by Cu29er »

"Der Wo always amazes me with his knowledge. I'm not smart enough to decipher half the stuff he types but I like to pretend I can"

+1
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