corn mashing yield and calculator help please

Production methods from starch to sugars.

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haeffnkr
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corn mashing yield and calculator help please

Post by haeffnkr » Sat Feb 03, 2018 6:07 am

Hi,
I have been reading about ceral mashes w/ corn and I am confused.

Usually you add some water * gallon/pound ) with well cracked corn (or other adjunct ) and 10% malted barley- hold the temp at around 150-160 depending on which chart you find for 20 mins
Then ramp up to 200 or even boil for 30 mins.
Cool back to 148 to mash in with the wheat/barley/grains for about an hour
Cool to yeast pitch temps and pitch yeast.

Jimbos recipe says start at 200 and steep for hours then cool and mash?
What does happens if you miss the gelatin stage at 150 before the 200 plus steep/boil?
viewtopic.php?f=96&t=48126

Secondly -
Where is a calculator that tells me what my SG should be if I use X pounds of raw corn to 15 gallons of water?
I am trying to figure out what my SG will be with raw corn and malted grain.
I assume my SG target should be around 6 for most whisky type mashes.

thanks in advance
haeffnkr

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frunobulax
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Re: corn mashing yield and calculator help please

Post by frunobulax » Sat Feb 03, 2018 6:49 am

Cereal mashes are difficult and I personally wouldn't do one without Hi Temp enzymes. For corn ya need to hold it at 190-200 degrees for 2 hours to gelatinize the starches (big pot of goo), then lower it to 150ish
where ya add malt (their gelatinization temp.) and let their enzymes convert all the starches to sugar. If you add the malt first and raise the temp above 160, you will denature the enzymes and get no conversion.
Also remember to make sure your grain has enough diastatic power to convert all of the starches. EZ!
HERE is a malt yield calculator. Properly crushed corn should yield about the same as flaked maize.

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Re: corn mashing yield and calculator help please

Post by ShineRunner » Sat Feb 03, 2018 7:27 am

+1

You have to cook from the top temperature down, with the exception of the big R stepped process. Even then, you wouldn’t add malt until it cooled back down to ~150. If you do it the other way, you will denature/lose your enzymes and they won’t convert the starches from your corn into sugars.

Think of making a pot of grits. It starts as water and cornmeal (basically) and as you heat it, it gets thick and gooey. That is the same process for cooking corn. After you heat it and gelatinize the starches, you let it cool and then you add the malt. Depending on the temperature, the malt will release enzymes which will break down the corn starch and it will thin out to a liquid again. Let it rest there and then cool down to pitching temps. Done.

I like this calculator for its simplicity and ease. Flaked corn is what you should get close to with cornmeal type corn. https://www.brewersfriend.com/allgrain-ogfg/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

Keep reading and learning..

SR

haeffnkr
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Re: corn mashing yield and calculator help please

Post by haeffnkr » Sat Feb 03, 2018 7:50 am

I am not sure my question is understood.
This link and other homebrew articles out there say add just enough barley to the supply enzymes to the corn - get to 150ish for corn - for 20 mins then boil then cool back to 150 then mash with your other grains.
http://beersmith.com/blog/2013/09/06/ce ... r-brewing/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
The instructions on this forum is to start high then cool then mash.
It makes sense to start high temp to break down the corn and extract the starch then mash it. But why does this link and other say to go low first then boil then mash all ingredients.

Thanks for the calculators - Brewersfriend is my favorite.
I would have thought raw corn would be lower than flaked.

thanks for the tips to keep reading and learning, appreciated :)

Thanks again.
haeffnkr

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firewater69
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Re: corn mashing yield and calculator help please

Post by firewater69 » Sat Feb 03, 2018 7:51 am

I try to do my corn the night before, I boil the water add the corn hold it at 180-190 for 30 minutes then flame out and let it set overnight, when I come back out in the morning it's still usually around 130° or so then I add the rest of my water for my malted grains which should bring my temp on down to around 100° where I start my step mash process, I do all of this in my keg pot with my gear drive mash paddle. The overnight rest on the he corn isn't necessary but I know it's always fully gelatinized and ready for conversion.
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Re: corn mashing yield and calculator help please

Post by corene1 » Sat Feb 03, 2018 8:11 am

I think what you are seeing is that some folks will add a bit of malted grain to the corn at 150 and let it rest a bit , then bring the corn up to a boil . Yes this will denature those enzymes but it will thin the corn mash up a little bit making it easier to handle. It was a technique used before the high temp liquid enzymes came into use. Then after cooking the mixture bring that mixture down to mashing temps and add all your malted grains for conversion making sure that you have enough diastatic power in the remaining malted grains to do the conversion.

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Re: corn mashing yield and calculator help please

Post by MichiganCornhusker » Sat Feb 03, 2018 8:53 am

haeffnkr wrote:What does happens if you miss the gelatin stage at 150 before the 200 plus steep/boil?
The high temps, at or near boiling, are what you need to gelatinize corn. I know there is some misleading info out there about the gel temps for corn being around 160F but that won’t work well for corn. I don’t see any need for a rest at 150-160 for corn.
haeffnkr wrote:Secondly - Where is a calculator that tells me what my SG should be if I use X pounds of raw corn to 15 gallons of water?
I am trying to figure out what my SG will be with raw corn and malted grain.
I assume my SG target should be around 6 for most whisky type mashes.
You probably won’t find a reliable calculator. Getting good conversion from raw corn can be tricky. Many variables affect efficiency but to get your SG around 1.06-1.066 I would suggest 2-1/2 pounds of corn per gallon as a starting point.
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Re: corn mashing yield and calculator help please

Post by Kegg_jam » Sat Feb 03, 2018 11:00 am

I think corene has it. A little sacrificial malt to thin the corn goo... Nowadays the high temp enzymes are the ticket for that.

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Re: corn mashing yield and calculator help please

Post by StillerBoy » Sat Feb 03, 2018 11:02 am

haeffnkr wrote:This link and other homebrew articles out there say add just enough barley to the supply enzymes to the corn - get to 150ish for corn - for 20 mins then boil then cool back to 150 then mash with your other grains.
http://beersmith.com/blog/2013/09/06/ce" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow ... r-brewing/
The instructions on this forum is to start high then cool then mash.
haeffinkr.. you are not making beer to drink, which is what all those beer link relate to..

the instructions here is to making "distiller's beer", which are not drank, but distilled..

that's why there is a variance in the process, plus the use of ingredients (liquid enzymes) that are not used in beer making..

by using liquid enzymes, lots of time is saved.. I mash by heating water to a boil, add all the grains bill at the same time since there are just there for sugar and favour, stir well, let sit for 1.5 - 2 hrs, stirrng every half hour, adjust ph and temp for HTL, let rest until temp for the next enzyme, adjust ph and let it rest overnight.. next morning add yeast.. done in 3 days from a 6.5 SG to .995 at 2 lbs per gal..

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Re: corn mashing yield and calculator help please

Post by StillerBoy » Sat Feb 03, 2018 11:06 am

Double post.. deleted this one

Mars
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haeffnkr
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Re: corn mashing yield and calculator help please

Post by haeffnkr » Sat Feb 03, 2018 2:37 pm

Thanks for all the replies.
So I understand now that what I was reading on the homebrew sites was old information and did not pertain to distilling.
I will read up on the high temp liquid enzymes.

@stillerboy
Why add all the grains, including barley, wheat and rye to the corn?
Dont you need to mash them at 148 to get the fermentable sugar out of them?

thanks again
haeffnkr

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Re: corn mashing yield and calculator help please

Post by StillerBoy » Sat Feb 03, 2018 3:22 pm

haeffnkr wrote:@stillerboy
Why add all the grains, including barley, wheat and rye to the corn?
Dont you need to mash them at 148 to get the fermentable sugar out of them?
Only if you are not using liquid enzymes..

It is my understanding from all the research I done, that I don't need to mash/add the malted grains at a lower temp because the enzyme Sabstar HTL will convert all the starch that is in all the grains to sugar, so I don't need the enzymes of the other grains provided at the lower temp.. I need the grains bill overall as favour, not for enzymes.. and that has been proven by the conversion ratio I an getting, which is averaging at .065 plus..

For time efficiency, I mash all grains at once.. I could mash the corn first for at high temp, then add the other grains in at a lower temp, but it does not change the favour profile of the finish distiller's beer overall, so I do it all in one step.. and the mash favour taste, to me, is the same..

Mars
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Re: corn mashing yield and calculator help please

Post by cede » Sat Feb 03, 2018 8:07 pm

Mashing for beer or mashing for distilling is a bit different as the goal is not the same.
But for beer I also cooked corn when using some.
I put corn and water in a big pan and bring on heat until it becomes thick and well gelatinized.
And then I pour it into the malt mash that will be heated by this and attain the right temperature for mashing.

Also for beer, you filter the mash and boil it for a few reasons: sanitize it, concentrate the sugars and hop it.
For distillation, no filtering, no boiling ! :)

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