Failed Whiskey Mash - Everytime

[Mrschmitt]

I am trying to make my first whiskey. I am using the following recipe:

8.5 lbs. of crushed corn (sometimes called flaked maize)
2 lbs. of crushed malted barley*
6.5 gallons of water
1 package of bread yeast(Fleischmann's Active Dry works well)

The only difference is that I am using Whisky distillers yeast. I follow
super good cleaning procedures and everything soaks in StarSan for at least
30 minutes before I start. I cook up the recipe as the instructions state.
Siphon it all into a clean and sterilized fermenter bucket. The bucket has
a tight fitting lid on it, with a tight fitting airlock. Everything should
be fine. It always works for beer, wine and even rum, but for this recipe,
it never works. Both times, I have tried it it bubbles away and smells
great... for the first few days, but both times it turns into the most
awful "puke" smelling mixture. It is absolutely awful. With my first batch
I threw it away as it was just awful. WIth my second batch I decided to
distill it. I use a pot still with a 2 inch column. The most alcohol that I
got off of the still was 20%. I tasted it and it tastes just like it
smells, just like puke. I have saved it, in case I can use it somewhere
else, but my main question, is what am I doing wrong. I have successfully
made rum but the whiskey is the furthest thing from success. Any help or
suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

[bluefish_dist]

Do you cool it quickly when you put it in the fermenter? If it takes too long to cool you can get an infection going.

[TDick]

I'm too much of a noob to offer detailed advice other than,
based on my READING a lot of TRIED & TRUE recipes here, not enough grain.
Usually FROM WHAT I HAVE READ you should have 2.5 to 3 pounds of grain per gallon.
I doubt it's THE issue, but it is certainly going to affect your success.

Other than that, I would suggest finding a T&T recipe here to follow. Others will probably have encountered similar issues and will explain in detail how they dealt with them.
When you follow those recipes, it's very difficult NOT to succeed.
Best of luck!

[acfixer69]

You are confusing me as flaked corn and cracked corn are very different in the mashing process. Maybe a better cook description of your mash process and a location Country may help. You don't seem to have converted what ever type of corn you have

[Mrschmitt]

I am using a copper wort chiller that I use for beer to cool the mash. It cools it quite quickly. As far as the corn. I am using sort of a corn meal. It's not quite a full blown corn meal as it still has some kernels in it, but a lot of it is crushed and powdery. The cooking description as per the recipe is.

Heat 6.5 gallons of water to roughly 165 degrees Fahrenheit. Once the temperature is reached, cut off the heat. It won't be needed for a while. Pour all of the crushed corn into the water and stir for 3-5 minutes. After that stir for 5-10 seconds every 5 minutes.

The corn will turn to a "gel" as it gets stirred up. Do not be alarmed, this is perfectly normal. The corn is being broken down and starch is being released, which makes the mixture quite thick. Once the barley is added and mashing begins, the mixture will thin out considerably.

Monitor temperature as you are stirring. Once temperature has dropped to 152 degrees, add the malted barley and stir for 1-2 minutes. Once stirred, cover and leave the mixture "rest" (sit) for 90 minutes.

During the rest enzymes in the malted barley will actually convert starches in the corn and the barley into sugar. Later, during the fermentation process, yeast will be added and they will actually turn the sugar into alcohol. So, to rephrase that, what we're ultimately trying to do during mashing is turn grain starch into sugar so we can the add yeast and turn the sugar into alcohol during the fermentation process. The enzymes found in malted grains (i.e. malted barley) are what make this conversion. Without enzymes, none of the starch will be converted into sugar and fermentation will fail. So, It is critically important to use malted barley, and not regular flaked barley, for this recipe.

After 90 minute rest, the mash will need to be cooled down to a temperature suitable for adding yeast. This is generally somewhere in the neighborhood of 70 degrees. Either use an immersion chiller to rapidly cool the mash, or simply leave it sit for several hours. Once cool, you'll need to pour the mash through a cheesecloth or a very fine strainer to separate solids from the liquids.

It's always to cool the mash as quickly as possible to reduce the likelihood that the mash will become contaminated with ambient bacteria while it is sitting. Immersion chillers work great for this.

We like to use a cheesecloth and we'll scoop a little bit into the cheesecloth bat at a time and then squeeze the hell out of it. If you use small amounts you can wring out the bag and recover most of the liquid (which means you'll end up with more final product).

Sorry for so much detail, but that is the exact recipe that I used. I have also made the following recipe and got the same results.


7.5 gallons of water
13 Pounds Of Crushed US 2 Row (Pale Malt)
Dry Yeast ( Bread Yeast, Safale US-05 Ale Yeast, or any yeast you prefer)

[Fruit Squeezer]

I noticed you skipped over ALOT of the critical part of the process. You never mentioned sparging the grain (or holding it at temp to extract enzymes).

Without this critical step, your corn will never convert it's starches to sugar. This step isn't nescesary with a rum wash, because it's all sugar already.

You also left out the starting / final gravity of the wash. Again, CRITICAL info.

Tempterature of the pitch of yeast, ferment temp, and duration of the ferment also, you guessed it critical.

Not knocking you , just that it's like you are asking about an engine problem, but not providing enough details about the failure.

Is it gas?
Is it diesel?
Is it 4 stroke?
Is it electronic ignition?
Is it at idle?
Under load?
Did it make a noise?
Are there leaks?
Does it crank?
Etc, etc, etc.
"It doesn't work", just isn't enough.

[Fruit Squeezer]

Sorry, repied on your initial post, before your detailed reply.
Took a while to type.

[acfixer69]

I am not the all grain guru but the 165 F is not high enough for corn. But would work for the barley. I'll let the all grainers get to the details. Looks like you are getting close.

[cede]

I see you took the recipe from internet. Same recipe replicated a lots of time does not make is good (nor bad).

The base is a 2lbs grain per gallon water.
Corn his better being gelatinized before the starch can be converted to sugar by amylases that you add or that are contained in the malted barley.
For simplicity bring water to a boil and pour corn in it while stirring.
Stir every 5 minutes until well gelatinized and until temp lowers to around 150˚f, then pour malt and stir.
Stir every 15 minutes until starch has been converted to sugars.
You can use iodine test to check for conversion, it should take at least 1 hour but be safe and count 1h30.
When ready cool the mash and take a gravity reading !
Rehydrate your yeast if you like or pour it in the mash directly.
You can also filter the mash into a fermenter, it's up to you.

You really need to measure the temperature of the mash before pouring malt. Too hot will inhibit the amylases.
And please buy a hydrometer if you do not have one and take readings.

If your mash does not ferment because of low sugar content , wild yeasts and bacterias will infect the mash, and I think this is what you smell.

As said, corn does not contain sugar but starch that must be broken down into sugar.
If you miss the conversion your mash will not contain sugar, so no alcohol.

[Twisted Brick]

If you take the time to pick up a hydrometer, also pick up some cheap pH strips. They aren't the most accurate tool, but will get you in the ballpark. Should you be suffering from a pH drop during your mash and ferment, your yeast will struggle.

Unfortunately, there are countless examples here of failures from following an internet recipe. Go to the Tried and True section on HD, and review NCHooch's Carolina Bourbon recipe and follow it closely. You will produce a product you will be proud of.

[HDNB]

you need to cook the corn. over 185* for 90minutes at least. personally i go 195* and about 120 minutes.

at 165 you are not pasteurizing the corn, the bacteria load will live. then you're adding more bacteria with the malt, that never reaches pasteurization temp...

once the corn is COOKED, cool to 149* add the malt and hold the temp over 145* for at l;east 90 minutes. then cool rapidly and pitch a "started" batch of yeast (start it at 110* with a small pail of the wort. let it cool to 100*) once the mash reaches 100* pitch the at least 2 hour old started yeast. use between 0.5 and 1.0 grams of yeast per litre of wort. (10 gallons, 40 liters =20-40 grams) one of those little beer packets of yeast ain't enough for a 5 gallon pail.

the yeast has to out pace the bacteria

[cede]

I never cooked the corn so long. Are you cooking whole grain ?

165˚F is high pasteurisation temp ( 170˚F is the high temp, 150˚F is low temp ), but pasteurisation depends on time too.

I agree that the healthiest yeast and rightest pitch rate, the better for the fermentation success.
Yeast has to start as fast as possible to prevent infection.

[Cu29er]

Your temps with corn are wrong and that's why it's not working. Corn is actually very challenging to use.
Boil your water, add your corn, and try to get the temperature in the pot back up over 180F and best for 190F to 200F but you'll easily scorch and burn at 200F. Keep stirring and it will thicken with more chance for scorching but ten minutes in the hot pot will help a lot. Then pour off into your insulated fermenter and carry on.

Since you have an infection you'll need to bleach everything or risk that taking off again.

[HDNB]

I never cooked the corn so long. Are you cooking whole grain ?

hell no i'm using ground to meal. you gotta gelatinize the starch if you want the enzymes to be able to work.

i've had problems with the condensate trap on my mash tun and was only able to reach 175* on a couple of occasions. i tried regular times and extended cook times (4 hours) at 175 and met with the same results. a quick ferment start and a stall at 1.05...and no yield.

if i cook right at 250g/L (2.2lbs per gallon) i can hit 1.075 that finishes dry. but you gotta hit temps, times and ph. or no joy.

cracked corn the best i've got to with same weights and methods got me 1.062 consistantly.

[Truckinbutch]

I use a 30 gallon boiler with a power mixer .You got to cook the hell out of corn even when it is fine ground . 180 to 190 degrees F for over an hour using liquid enzymes .
Secondary with low temp enzymes takes better than an hour at 145 to 150 degrees .
SRD and I have been getting conversions in the 90's with this method .
3# to the gallon and dilute prior to yeast pitch is the norm . We are operating off of 30 gallon batches .

[999delta]

The recipe your using is for flaked maize. Flaked maize looks like instant potatoes that has a light yellow color. 165 works fine because it's already been gelatinized. If your using any form of ground corn, like everyone has stated does not work at that temp. I'm with acfixer69, I think this is where things are breaking down in the communication.

[Pikey]

"Flaked maize" looks like cornflakes and has already (according to the pack) been raised to "Gel temp" - so no need to go there again.

However, I have read this thread twice and see nobody offering an explanation as to why a perfectly normal sounding "Wash" should be tasting like puke !

[bluefish_dist]

I think it was that there was no sugar, so the fermentation stopped and got an infection. Also no fermentation, no ph reduction so bacteria takes over.

[still_stirrin]

...nobody offering an explanation as to why a perfectly normal sounding "Wash" should be tasting like puke !

Well, I believe there was bacteria resident on the grains, specifically the crushed corn. With low strike temperatures and no boil, the bacteria got a stronghold. Bacteria don’t like acidic environments, but the OP didn’t check pH to ensure it was in the correct range for a healthy yeast ferment while reducing the liklihood of bacteria consuming the mash.

Here’s a read with similar circumstances: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=52602

Of note, typically the vomit smell does diminish...if you can wait on it. And the results usually are welcome in the spirit, sometimes even desireable.

Good luck Mrschmitt.
ss

[zapata]

I've "pre soured" corn a number of times. Just mix corn with water, and preferably incubate about 110-120*F. At first it smells a wee funky, then it smells vomit, then the lactos take over and it gets that creamy custard smell. Its a fair substitute for to a sour mash if you don't have backset to start your first mash and don't want to just do a sweet mash.

All that to say vomit bacteria is definitely on the corn to start, and it does get taken over by lacto, within a day or so at 120*F.

[Brum]

I am not the all grain guru but the 165 F is not high enough for corn. But would work for the barley. I'll let the all grainers get to the details. Looks like you are getting close.

Gelatinization range of corn is 144° to 169°F. ... so 165°is sufficient.

[Brum]

[quote="Mrschmitt"]I am trying to make my first whiskey. I am using the following recipe:

8.5 lbs. of crushed corn (sometimes called flaked maize)
2 lbs. of crushed malted barley*
6.5 gallons of water
1 package of bread yeast(Fleischmann's Active Dry works well)"

It's better, cheaper, to use whole feed dent corn kernels (NOT sweet feed which has chemical additives and that nasty refuse product black strap molasses). Clean and malt the corn by soaking, then drying at room temp in 8 to 12 hour cycles for 3 days. Then while still moist, grind/flake the germinated corn yourself. It's not necessary to dry freshly malted corn if you will be mashing it within 24 hours. Finally, soak the malted and ground corn in warm water (around 70 to 90°F) for 19 hours in your mash pot the day and or night before you mash to create a preliminary sour mash. There is not enough sugar (potential alcohol) in your 8.5 lbs of flaked corn or corn meal. Bump up your malted barley to 3 lbs, ideally, use malted/crushed 1 lb. RAHR 6-Row barley and 2 lbs. malted/crushed Golden Promise barley. After steeping be sure to sparge the grain with a few quarts of the wash heated to around 140°F and 2 quarts or more of hot tap water to remove all of the sugar. A brew-in-a-bag is the best process to use, no more stuck sparges. You can cut back on your initial steeping water quantity to allow for the sparging water later. Add 5 lbs. of dextrose (corn sugar) and 6 lbs. of sucrose (raw unprocessed cane sugar) to your mash. Prior to pitching the yeast, add Fermax Yeast Nutrient - 40 grams or 2 parts nutrient to 1 part yeast. Throw the bread yeast out, buy and use a quality whiskey yeast such as Safspirit USW-6 yeast, expensive, but so is our time.
Making an excellent bourbon:
Malted and Ground Corn:
Cold Water Soaked: 19 hours

Hot Steeping, plus Protein Rest periods:
Initial temp ramp up time approx. 1 hour
140-150°F 2 hours (corn only)
135 -140°F 1 hour (corn & barley)
135 - 140°F 1 hour & 30 minutes (corn, barley, & wheat)
150 -160°F 30 minutes mash out (corn, barley, & wheat)
Corn Hot Steeped total = 5 hours
Barley: Hot Steeped 3 hours
Wheat: Hot Steeped 2 hours
There are many further details to making bourbon or whiskey. Too much to post here. Brum

[corene1]

Just some thoughts here. First the corn. there is a flaked maize that is just steam rolled and there is a flaked maize that is pre -geletinized. The steam rolled needs a lot of cooking where the pre- geletinized only needs to cook at 170 for a while to reach full starch release. There is only 2 pounds of malted barley for a total grain bill of 10.5 pounds which puts it right at the minimum for diastatic power. If the barley is lower than 160 points of diastatic power there won't be enough for conversion. Type of barley malt comes into play at this amount of malted grain as well. Briess 2 row is 140 points while Briess 6 row is 180 points. So my guess would be that the starch may not have been fully released due to type of corn and not enough malted grains to create a strong enzyme solution in the mash . This would be very low in alcohol and could spoil quickly.
Check your corn to see what type it is and cook accordingly. Raise the malted grain up to 3 or even 4 pounds and make sure it is fresh and has a good grind to it. If you want to use this exact recipe I would supplement it with liquid enzymes to help the malted grains along. I like SEB , HTL and GL, I like these, https://enzymash.biz/index.php?route=pr ... ry&path=33" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow I have had much better conversions with constant agitation during the mash period and holding the temperature in the mid to high 140's through out the entire mashing process.

[Windy City]

I am not the all grain guru but the 165 F is not high enough for corn. But would work for the barley. I'll let the all grainers get to the details. Looks like you are getting close.

Gelatinization range of corn is 144° to 169°F. ... so 165°is sufficient.

From real world experience and not just charts I would strongly disagree with this.
165 is too low of a temp.
I use corn meal and high temp enzymes and have great success gelatinizing/converting in the 185/190 range.
For a real good discussion on this check out
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=51171

Also check out these Tried and True recipes
viewtopic.php?f=14&t=39617
viewtopic.php?f=14&t=51458

[HDNB]

I gotta throw in with windy on this as well. charts be damned. you gotta cook corn. I have had 2 cracked corn failures with an infection at 1.05 by not exceeding 175* last year alone.
So not only do you need to cook it to release the starch, you have got to kill the bugs too.The pasteurization temp you see on charts for 165* for 15 seconds are for milk...which is relatively clean to start with, in sterile equipment and a different bacteria load than some shitty feed corn that laid in a field and got run through a combine that was never cleaned in it's life and off to a mill where again, nothing is ever cleaned.
when i do a big corn ferment there is usually a solid cup full of dirt (like as in earth) in the bottom of the fermenters when i clean it out.

lbs/gallon, grind. times, temps and PH with enzymes and yeast will get great yield...mess with the equation and you start to lose booze, the more you fuck with it the worse the yield.

[corene1]

My comment was trying to show the difference between pre geletinized corn from the brew shop and feed store corn be it cracked ground or rolled. The brew shop corn ,while expensive has already been cooked and processed and is very clean so a lower temp and shorter cook time is OK. Feed store corn is a different matter and must be cooked accordingly. The big difference is brew shop flaked maize and feed store corn is the price. $1.99 a pound for brew shop and $15 dollars a 50 pound sack at the feed store. Again just my thoughts.

[MichiganCornhusker]

I am using sort of a corn meal. It's not quite a full blown corn meal as it still has some kernels in it, but a lot of it is crushed and powdery.

That doesn't sound like corn meal, or flaked maize, or anything else that may be pre-gelatinized. Sounds like plain ol' cracked corn to me.

Regardless, you can take that gelatinization chart and use it to start the fire you will need to Cook That Corn!
I agree that getting it up to 190F is a fine target. Liquid enzymes help a ton.

As for the smell, I have done many mashes that smell a bit funky, pukey, vomity... heavy corn mashes don't always smell like daisies.
But they make great hooch.

Edit: posted with Corene, not meant to argue about what the corn is.

[shadylane]

Regardless, you can take that gelatinization chart and use it to start the fire you will need to Cook That Corn!
I agree that getting it up to 190F is a fine target. Liquid enzymes help a ton.

There Ya go

[StillerBoy]

So.. 9 months later on providing the OP with valid info into his problem, where is the OP ? ? has he tried to do something different than what he originally posted ? ?

Mars

[shadylane]

It don't matter were the OP is now
It's about supplying info for folks that are searching for it