Sour mash process possible without sugar?

[wishbone77]

I am planning on running a standard all grain wheated bourbon mash bill (6 gallons, 70% corn/15% barley/15% malted wheat, red star yeast) using the basic concept of a sour mash method that I have used with success in the past by fermenting on grain, straining and running a strip run then adding the cooled backset back to the grain to restart the ferment and do 2 more strip runs in this fashion. As suggested by Ian Smiley, I have been adding about 2-3 lbs of brown sugar to the backset to prime the yeast for the subsequent batches.

However, I would like to do this current run limiting or eliminating the addition of sugar as I believe this adds to a subtle harshness in the final product. After giving some thought to the planning for this run I am wondering if the sour mash process as described is possible without sugar to prime the yeast and add fermentable sugars to subsequent runs. Essentially, how many fermentable sugars are still available in the grain and the backset after the first run, and is this enough for the yeast to restart the ferment and obtain adequate yield on the 2nd and 3rd batches? Any thoughts, suggestions and tricks would be appreciated.

[cuginosgrizzo]

Hi wishbone, I don't get what you want to do. You plan to ferment your AG mash, strain, strip and then put backset and strained grain together again without adding anything else?

No. It would not work then. You have already fermented the sugars in your original mash.

To do a proper AG sour mash, you just throw away the spent grains, then you add your backset to the new grains, and mash them with this backset and some more water. That's a sour mash.

[Pikey]

SUgar makes alcohol when acted upon by yeast. - There is no discussion, that is what happens.

So if you're not "adding sugar" - where exactly are you getting your sugar from ?

And HOw ?

[Swedish Pride]

the grains can only give up their starch once, after that you have to do an other mash and add the backset from previous runs

[wishbone77]

Thanks for the response. I have followed the basic outline of a sour mash process as described by Ian Smiley in his book (chapter 13). Although he describes is a no-cook process, he states that only 30% of grain starches are consumed during fermentation with that method(pg 145). I use a cook/boil process, so I anticipate more conversion of starches but assumed that there would still be unconsumed grain starches based on this statement. I could certainly be wrong as I have not found any other data on this; however, I have used this process as I described with good yield on the second and third runs utilizing the same grain and backset (with sugar). As I work through this, maybe I am just fermenting the added sugar and bringing flavor over from the grain/backset, but my typical yield on the second run is similar to the first?

[cuginosgrizzo]

As I work through this, maybe I am just fermenting the added sugar and bringing flavor over from the grain/backset, but my typical yield on the second run is similar to the first?

I think you got it.

As I understand it you don't do a proper mash the first time? please describe your process in detail, with temperatures at each step.

I suspect that you are just doing a sugarhead with cooked corn and grains. So the yield each run is more or less the same, because it is due to the sugar, and not from starches.

[Pikey]

Well you're right - he DOES "say that" around 30% of teh starches can be converted directly by the yeast ! - provided PH is 4.5 - 5.5

I've no idea, with your bit of malted wheat, that might be improved, if it was true in the first place.

I don't think anyone here has ever even thought of a contribution to the alcohol from the grain in a sour mash, so the discussion cannot go far.

I suggest that you siimply get on and do it !

Write it up for us and maybe we can All learn something !

[wishbone77]

As I work through this, maybe I am just fermenting the added sugar and bringing flavor over from the grain/backset, but my typical yield on the second run is similar to the first?

I think you got it.

As I understand it you don't do a proper mash the first time? please describe your process in detail, with temperatures at each step.

I suspect that you are just doing a sugarhead with cooked corn and grains. So the yield each run is more or less the same, because it is due to the sugar, and not from starches.

Thank you for the response. As Pikey suggested, it's probably to the point of just running it and seeing. The big question I guess is do we know how much of the grain we convert to fermentable starches/sugars during the mash and how much of that is converted to alcohol by the yeast in one ferment period?

However, here is my process, feel free to critic:
Planning a 6 gallon, will use 7 quarts cracked corn, 1.5 q 6 row and 1.5 q malted wheat. Usually use 1.5 gallon previous backset with the rest bottled water (Eldardo). Soak the corn in the backset and a gallon of water overnight (I may try baking it overnight this time per another thread suggestion). Filter corn, heat to boiling and add the corn and 0.5 q barley at heat for 3 hours. Then slow cool to 151 deg F, add malted grain and allow slow cool to 140F. I then will heat back up to 150 F stirring and add some amylase enzyme and beano and allow another slow cool down to 140F to see if I can maximize enzymatic activity. Aerate and transfer to ferment barrel and top with water, pitch yeast at about 85-90F (use starter per instructions on bag). I also add 1 tbsp of tomato paste and handful of oyster shell. pH typically is around 4.8-5.2 at this point. Ferment for 4-6 days (life timeline), strain off grain and allow 24 hours rest then strip run. Add sugar to the backset and then add the entire backset back to the grain after cooling and re-aerating, top off with water and off it typically goes. The bubbling starts fast which is certainly initially from the sugar. No more yeast is required. Second batch yield typically same as first, third batch about 2/3 yield as first run.
For this next time, I will put the backset back in with no sugar and see if anything happens.
Thanks again for reading and contributing to this thread

[Pikey]

Wait a minute -

Are you doing a cold sour mash like what Smiley said - or are you trying to do an AG ????

[der wo]

Distilling (heating up) the fermented wash will convert a few remaining starches to sugar. And when you use the backset for the next mash, those sugars are fermented. And the new enzymes will also convert some of the remaining starches of the backset. In my experience when using say 20% backset for a new mash, I will get instead of 8% perhaps 8.5% alcohol at the end. The effect is measurable. Of course everything depends on how many starches are left. The worse your first mashing was, the more starches does the backset have.

[DuckofDeath]

I get about 85% efficiency with my all grain corn and wheat. There are zero sugars left over from either the grain or the backset. I take a couple gallons of backset and put it aside for my next mash. I add it in after the second mashing at 155-147degrees then I use the backset to help cool and lower the ph before I pitch new yeast. I do not save trub so I always pitch new.