Low Alcometer / Proof and Tralle Hydrometer Reading in Wash

Production methods from starch to sugars.

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tonofsteel
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Low Alcometer / Proof and Tralle Hydrometer Reading in Wash

Post by tonofsteel »

Made up a 25L kale sugar wash with 5.5kg sugar.
Starting SG was around 1.08 and finishing was below 1.00 but not by much.
Left it go for two weeks and when the SG would not drop any lower cleared it and racked it into another fermenter.

I had an air lock on it, was about 24C most of the two weeks.

So now I used a alcometer to test the wash and it is telling me that I have 0-2% ABV in there.

It appears that after racking it a week ago I put the lid on the fermenter but did not push down to snap fit it closed. So it was not openly exposed to air but it also was not a tight seal. Is it possible that 80-100% of the alcohol evaporated off in that period of time? I tasted it and it tastes like wine and not vinegar at all. The ambient temperature is around 20-22C so kind of cold to think rapid evaporation would occur.

Never had this happen before, did not even see the need to check the final wash %ABV since it has always worked out if I get the SG right from start to finish.

Anyone ever have this happen?

Edit: Changed the subject to hopefully make my example easier for others making the same mistake to find
Last edited by tonofsteel on Wed Jun 20, 2018 8:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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still_stirrin
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Re: Where did all my wash alcohol go?

Post by still_stirrin »

Wrong tool. The alcometer (Proof & Traille hydrometer) is for measuring spirits off the still.

You need a brewer’s hydrometer for measuring the specific gravity before fermentation and after. The difference in gravity is used to calculate the potential alcohol in the wash.

Like this: (OG - FG) x 130 = %ABV

If you started at 1.080 and finished at 1.000, your wash is approximately 10.4%ABV.
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Re: Where did all my wash alcohol go?

Post by Truckinbutch »

Did you run it ? When in doubt , run it . That will answer many questions for you .
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Re: Where did all my wash alcohol go?

Post by Pikey »

You clearly have an hydrometer 'cos you did your og /fg.

Alcoholometer is no good on wine as ss says. You have wine ! It will get you psst if you drink it.

Do as Truckinbutc h says - run it - yur booze is still in there !

Wish they were all as easy as that one ! :lol:
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Re: Where did all my wash alcohol go?

Post by rubelstrudel »

Now, if you taste your wine, and you can hardly tell if there's alcohol in it at this point from taste and smell.
Then I'd say you have a very good starting point for a good neutral.
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Re: Where did all my wash alcohol go?

Post by Swedish Pride »

I snuck in and drank it all :)
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tonofsteel
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Re: Where did all my wash alcohol go?

Post by tonofsteel »

Swedish Pride wrote:I snuck in and drank it all :)
I knew I would find the answer here, was wondering who left the lid loose as I would never do that! LOL


Thank you all for the advice, a couple of novice mistakes added up and did me in.

still_stirrin is totally right and I normally just use the OG/FG to determine if the wash is done fermenting and how much ABV should be there.

With the lid not being snapped into place and this being the first kale sugar wash (normally use TPW) it smelled and tasted different. So I thought I would double check with the alcometer. The one I have is full range so I mistakenly thought it could be used for wine. I know the one I have is accurate for 80 proof as I have tested commercial spirits but I am now suspect about the results for high ABV coming off the still. I see there are boxed sets available with 3 different alcometers to check different ranges and am considering getting a set.

Not having left a lid loose on wash before I don't know how quickly it changes to vinegar or evaporates, I have heard stories on forums but nothing concrete.

I ran it and all is well in the end. The run was different since it took longer for product to come out and the end of the run felt like it came quicker but I also changed from 14%ABV to 10%ABV washes so that makes sense as there is less ABV there to start with.

I will stick with the OG/FG and when in doubt run it first. Thanks again!
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Re: Where did all my wash alcohol go?

Post by tonofsteel »

rubelstrudel wrote:Now, if you taste your wine, and you can hardly tell if there's alcohol in it at this point from taste and smell.
Then I'd say you have a very good starting point for a good neutral.
Forgot to mention in the original post that I found this to be the case. The taste was not sweet at all and contributed to me thinking the alcohol was gone as I could hardly tell it was there. Turns out it ended up being a good neutral, who would have thought? :thumbup:
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Re: Where did all my wash alcohol go?

Post by Pikey »

tonofsteel wrote:
........... the alcometer. The one I have is full range so I mistakenly thought it could be used for wine. I know the one I have is accurate for 80 proof as I have tested commercial spirits but I am now suspect about the results for high ABV coming off the still. ..................!
There's no reason to believe there is anything wrong with it - just wasn't th eright tool for teh job you asked it to do.
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Re: Where did all my wash alcohol go?

Post by Pikey »

tonofsteel wrote:
rubelstrudel wrote:Now, if you taste your wine, and you can hardly tell if there's alcohol in it at this point from taste and smell.
Then I'd say you have a very good starting point for a good neutral.
Forgot to mention in the original post that I found this to be the case. The taste was not sweet at all and contributed to me thinking the alcohol was gone as I could hardly tell it was there. Turns out it ended up being a good neutral, who would have thought? :thumbup:
We all would :lol: :lol: 8)
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Re: Where did all my wash alcohol go?

Post by StillerBoy »

tonofsteel wrote:I ran it and all is well in the end. The run was different since it took longer for product to come out and the end of the run felt like it came quicker but I also changed from 14%ABV to 10%ABV washes so that makes sense as there is less ABV there to start with.
So you run the wash, and learned more about the process, which is what you have been advised all along..

A 25 litre wash with 5.5k of sugar such have given you about 4 litres of low wine at 50% abv.. a stripped run on a 10% wash will start to drip at about 192 - 193*F, and a 14% run will start to drip at about 190*F.. this occurs because of the higher alcohol content in the wash, it start to evapourate earlier as the wash is heated..

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tonofsteel
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Re: Where did all my wash alcohol go?

Post by tonofsteel »

Pikey wrote:
tonofsteel wrote:
........... the alcometer. The one I have is full range so I mistakenly thought it could be used for wine. I know the one I have is accurate for 80 proof as I have tested commercial spirits but I am now suspect about the results for high ABV coming off the still. ..................!
There's no reason to believe there is anything wrong with it - just wasn't th eright tool for teh job you asked it to do.
Got it. When i posted it could have sounded like I thought it was defective but was trying to figure out why exactly and what use cases. At that point was seeing how the 3 PT hydrometer set could be more accurate as they were calibrated for different ranges, but does not change the fact wrong tool for job described.

From what I now know:

Mistake: Assuming that cleared and racked wash is just water/ethanol
The wash I cleared and racked twice had a very slight yellow color to it but was crystal clear, could see straight through the stuff with no haze or milkiness at all.
Using the Proof and Tralle hydrometer in wine/wash will not work because of the other stuff dissolved in the wash that you can't see. Even after clearing and racking multiple times this mixture is not just water and alcohol so the hydrometer will not read correctly. There is stuff in the wash that is heavier than water (unused traces of sugar, traces of yeast, unused nutrients etc) and stuff that is lighter than water like the alcohols. So that is why I ended up at a final SG of 1.00ish (heavies > 1.00 SG and lights < 1.00SG in water @ 1.00SG averaged out to 1.00 in the wash) They are meant for use in a pure ethanol/water mix which is why they are used for liquid coming out of the first and subsequent runs from the still, all the other stuff is stripped out at this point.

Mistake: Knowing but not making the connection that a hydrometer is a hydrometer
The standard hydrometer and the proof and tralle hydrometer are the same thing. They just have different numbers printed on paper inside and while the hydrometer gives you SG the Proof and Tralle gives you proof (given a dip in pure ethanol/water). In any case a SG of 1 is by definition equal to a ABV of 0%. So in original post when I was stressing about it reading 0% dipping in the Proof Tralle hydrometer it should have been no surprise since the hydrometer was reading 1.000 (Can google for "SG of ethanol and water mix abv" to see the conversion tables between SG and proof)

All the Proof and Tralle hydrometer does is save the work of using a standard hydrometer and then going to a table to translate what the %ABV is. Instead of Density (0.90, 1.00, 1.01 etc) it has the proof (0-200) printed on the paper inside but by definition requires a pure ethanol/water mix in order to work properly. Density of 1.000 is 0 proof and density of 0.791 is 200 proof (both measured in pure ethanol/water, not wash) ie. you can use a standard hydrometer that goes down to 0.791 to do the same thing that the Proof and Tralle hydrometer does by using a conversion table. (again, only with pure ethanol/water which means after first and subsequent still runs)

Mistake: Proof and Tralle has the same accuracy across the entire range (0-200)
Looking at the lines printed on the paper in the PT hydrometer I can see they start out compressed at the lower range (0) and then expand as the high range (200) is reached. Measuring low ABV is less accurate than measing higher ABV. This is because of the limitations of the physical construction and resulting calibration.


There are sets of Proof and Tralle hydrometers that you can buy that are calibrated to different scales than the standard 0-200 proof. I have seen them come in 0-80, 80-140, 140-200 and 0-200, so while the requirement that the liquid be a pure ethanol/water mix still stands these smaller range PT hydrometers could make it easier to read accurately the proof. However these are probably not necessary and as long as you use the proper tool for the job (hydrometer for wash, PT hydrometer for still product) then you should be close enough with the 0-200.

Hopefully this is correct for the most part and I leave it here in case someone else going down the same path makes the same mistake and ends up here wondering why it is the wrong tool for the job. In hindsight a pretty silly question but assuming that cleared wash = water+alcohol was my tripping point. Seeing all the lees at the bottom had me convinced everything dropped out enough to make this assumption but I was wrong.
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Re: Where did all my wash alcohol go?

Post by Pikey »

tonofsteel wrote: The wash I cleared and racked twice had a very slight yellow color to it but was crystal clear, could see straight through the stuff with no haze or milkiness at all.
Using the Proof and Tralle hydrometer in wine/wash will not work because of the other stuff dissolved in the wash.............
Correct :thumbup:
tonofsteel wrote: The standard hydrometer and the proof and tralle hydrometer are the same thing. They just have different numbers printed on paper inside ...........
Close but no cigar :lol:

Look at where the 1.000 (plain water = 0% on alco-meter = 1.000 on hydro) appears. on the std hydrometer it is at the remote end of the antenna. On the alco - meter, it is near the bulb.

Yes they are basically the same thing, but are not interchangeable. they have different weight loadings inside as well as the scale differences.
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Re: Where did all my wash alcohol go?

Post by tonofsteel »

Pikey wrote:
tonofsteel wrote: The standard hydrometer and the proof and tralle hydrometer are the same thing. They just have different numbers printed on paper inside ...........
Close but no cigar :lol:

Look at where the 1.000 (plain water = 0% on alco-meter = 1.000 on hydro) appears. on the std hydrometer it is at the remote end of the antenna. On the alco - meter, it is near the bulb.

Yes they are basically the same thing, but are not interchangeable. they have different weight loadings inside as well as the scale differences.
Yes very good point/distinction I was not clear about, thanks!

The ranges on my kit:
SG 0.970 to 1.150 -> Wine and Beer Hydromter
SG 0.791 to 1.000 -> Alcometer / Proof and Tralle hydrometer (0.791 SG = 200 proof, 1.000 SG = 0 proof)

But as the PT hydrometer is labelled in proof which requires a pure ethanol/water mix it cannot be used for general SG measurements in an unknown liquid since there is no way to convert the proof reading to SG.
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