Convertion starch to sugar with corn malt

[alberchec]

I am trying to make a pure corn whiskey. So for this a made my own corn malt. But I tried to use it in lots of ways it could be used. I tried to make the mash with pure corn malt, I used pre gelatinized corn maize mixed with the corn malt, I gelatinized some ground corn and mixed with the corn malt, and I even tried to convert gelatinized rice. But all failed.

So I made some research, and by what I understood the starch to sugar conversion is a hydrolysis. And this reaction (hydrolysis) is a group of two reactions actually, the liquefaction and saccharification.

So comparing my research to what happened with my mash, it was clear that the liquefaction had occurred, because the viscosity of the gelatinized mash had dropped considerably, from a thick mash it turn out to be very thin. But the saccharification didn’t take place at all, because the mash was not even close to sweet, it seemed most like water.

Maybe my malt is not good enough. I let the kernels sprouting for 5 days, including the days I poured it into water. Their shoots were pretty much the size of the kernels. And I dried them with a fan, no heat used, because I wanted a green malt.

To summarize it seems that my corn malt is half doing its job, but no sugar is found at the end of the mashing.

Maybe I should let the kernels sprout a little longer to get between the 1”-2” inches range.
What you guys suggest me?

By the way for the mash I used the temperature of 65 C (149 F) for about 1 or 1,5 hours.

[bilgriss]

I'm not a malting expert, but there are a lot of good examples with pictures on the forum that should guide you.

As for the mash, there are several things to consider. First, how fine did you grind the corn malt itself? You've got to get all those enzymes really exposed to the hot liquid and starches before you'll get a good enzymatic reaction. You mention the preparation of other grains, but not the malt.

Also, if the corn malt is marginal, that is not highly modified, it might have just enough or almost enough enzymes to fully convert its own starch, but possibly not enough to convert any volume of other grains. What ratio of malt to other grain did you use?

I think for my first experiments with home malting, I'd see if the malt could fully convert itself before trying to use it with other grains. That should help you get to the best outcome, and then if you get great results, you can try more adjuncts. Another approach would be to add some barley malt to convert the other grains.

[alberchec]

Thank you for the advice bilgriss. I’ll focus on converting just the own corn malt starch. I was mashing with adjuncts because I was not sure if when you malt the corn it needs to be further gelatinized. But from what I have seen here at the forum, gelatinization is not necessary. I actually was disregarding the corn malt starch, just using its enzymes.

Regarding the malted unmalted ratio, I used 100% corn malt, 50%, 30%, and some cases I just kept adding corn malt to the mash to see if anything happened. But probably my malt is not good enough, I’ll try malting again.

I believe the corn malt grinding was fine enough, I used the blender.

Thank you!

[MichiganCornhusker]

What is your recipe? How many pounds (Kg?) grain and how many gallons (litres?) water?
Do you have a hydrometer? It would be helpful to know exactly what you are getting out of your mash.

Malting corn does two things, it develops enzymes in the corn, and it also breaks down the starch clusters to make them available for conversion to sugars.

In my experience, I believe the enzymes are developed early on, but it take longer to degrade the starches.
A sprout as long as the kernel will generate enzymes, but without cooking it won't give you a very good conversion.

If you are adding your malt and it is turning the mash from a thick sticky mush into a thin watery soup then I think your enzymes are working.
I would guess that you are not converting much of the starch in your corn malt though because it is still to bound up in clusters.
To break up those clusters I think you might need to let the malt sprouts get longer, and/or cook the corn malt just like you would raw corn, holding back 10% - 20% for enzymes.

[badflash]

Properly made corn malt needs shoots between 1" and 2". Corn malt does not have a lot of extra enzymes, so it won't convert much other starch. Best to malt all your corn for your recipe rather than try to use it as a base malt to convert more unmalted corn. If you really want the easy way though, use enzymes. Super easy and you can use ground or cracked corn.

[alberchec]

Hey MichiganCornhusker, so as I am trying to see if my corn malt works I’m doing small experiments. So the last time I used 200g (0.44 lb) of corn malt to about 1 L of water (no adjuncts), and I kept it at 63 C (145 F) for an hour. My hydrometer gave me a gravity of 1010 at the right temperature, but the mash was not sweet. I know that this gravity is low, it maybe don’t even gives me 1% alcohol.

I think that what is happening is exactly what you said. My malt has the enzymes but the starch clusters hasn’t been broken down.

Thank you!

[alberchec]

I’ve seen a topic once about making beer with malted corn, and the guy poured the malted corn into water and kept below enzyme degradation for a while, then he took most of the liquid out and hold it aside. After, he added more water and cooked the mash to gelatinize it, then brought the temperature back to the enzymes range again and poured back the liquid that was took out (enzyme solution). So he mashed as usual.

Would that work for me?

I still have the link if you want to check it out: https://dcylab.wordpress.com/2013/07/26 ... n-ale/amp/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
It is about beer, but the mashing is pretty much the same I believe.

[still_stirrin]

....Would that work for me?...

Try it!

In theory, it should work to convert the corn mash. In fact, your reading has told you that beer brewers successfully use the process.

But, understand that you'll be handling the sweet wort a lot. And as the mash volume increases, the process may get "messy" and certainly "cumbersome".

So, try it for yourself...prove the processes for your own edification. And with the success story, come share what you've learned.

You don't need anyone's "approval" here to try a new process that you would like to prove....just do it!
ss

[alberchec]

I’ll give it a try, but also try to malt some corn again.

[Kareltje]

Would be a valuable conribution to our knowledge. Thanks in advance!

[bitter]

Look into enzymes also. Boomers comes to mind.. Sheldon did a video on youtube also using corn and enzymes. You could use that method then add some you corn malt and beta enzymes to get around 146 to 148f for the mash. For corn I find longer mash times help og. Also keep eye on oh and adjust in each step for optimal oh for conversion. Use some corn backset... Will add flavour too

B

[alberchec]

Thank you for the advice bitter, with time I’m going to try more stuff and improve my process, like the ph adjustment.

[MichiganCornhusker]

The pH adjustment is especially important when using liquid enzymes.
Your own corn malt will be more forgiving.

I’ve got some corn malt laying around, I’ll join in on some experiments with you, alberchec.

[alberchec]

Great!

[alberchec]

I’ve seen a topic once about making beer with malted corn, and the guy poured the malted corn into water and kept below enzyme degradation for a while, then he took most of the liquid out and hold it aside. After, he added more water and cooked the mash to gelatinize it, then brought the temperature back to the enzymes range again and poured back the liquid that was took out (enzyme solution). So he mashed as usual.

Would that work for me?

I still have the link if you want to check it out: https://dcylab.wordpress.com/2013/07/26 ... n-ale/amp/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
It is about beer, but the mashing is pretty much the same I believe.

I’ve tried this method yesterday and it gave me a gravity of 1028, it’s better than 1010 from previous experiments. I intend to achieve in the future something around 1050, or higher if it’s possible.

I’m not familiar with the calculation of the yield, but from what I’ve seen it’s the percentage of alcohol/sugar you could get compared to the maximum, that I believe for car ethanol production is 400 l/106 gallons ( at 95% alcohol) per 1000 kg/2200 lb of corn. So using this I believe I got about 22%.

I believe that when you take out the liquid that contains enzymes from your mash, you bring with it some starchs, and these don’t become gelatinized. So you lose some of the sugar.

[seamusm53]

Corn malt does not have sufficient diastatic power (DP) to convert its own starch. Which is why other malts or pure enzymes are often added.

[MichiganCornhusker]

Corn malt has plenty of Diastatic Power.
The problem with converting corn malt, at least with sprouts in the 3/4" range, is that the starches still need to be cooked to be accessible to the enzymes.

I've converted corn meal to an SG of 1.045 at 150F with as little as 5%-10% raw corn malt for enzymes.
But that same corn malt will only give me SG 1.015 if I mash it as 100% corn malt.

If I cook most of the corn malt to a boil, and then add back about 10% raw malt at mash temps of 150F, I can get about SG 1.045.

If I use liquid enzymes, I can get boiled 100% corn malt up to about SG 1.058.

My suggestion is to cook all of your corn malt up to 190F, use the SebStar HTL high temp enzyme, cool to 150F and add the SebAmyl enzyme and that's about the best yield you will get.

If you want to go old school and don't want to use the liquid enzymes, then I would cook 80%-90% of your malt up to a boil, reduce to 150F, and then add in the raw 10%-20% corn malt to provide the enzymes to convert the starches.

[badflash]

I've done 3 batches of corn so far. 2 with ground corn and 1 with cracked corn. I add 4 ml of AG300L to the water with 10# of corn. The AG300L is active at 140F so it avoids scorching at the 1st gel point. I also add a tablespoon of citric acid which brings the pH into the proper range. Once it gets to 190F I add 4 ML of SebStar HTL and hold for an hour, cool to 155F and add the SebAmyl. Depending on how much water you use, you can get a gravity as high as 1.080. After extraction I add more water and extract another batch at about 1.020 and use that in my next conversion run. None of my batches required stirring and I liked the cracked corn better as it was easier to extract, but the yield was a little lower. I did not boil.

[MichiganCornhusker]

I've done 3 batches of corn...

Corn, or corn malt?

[badflash]

Corn. I use enzymes, you don't need them with malted corn.