conical vs flat bottom fermenters

Production methods from starch to sugars.

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Re: conical vs flat bottom fermenters

Post by Stonecutter »

dmw_chef wrote: Wed Jun 15, 2022 4:53 am Conicals are a complete waste of money for anyone on the homebrew scale. Full stop.

Any differences in fermentation kinetics you see will only really apply to commercial scale brewing.
We’ll see…
I’ve got a Spike CF30 sitting in my garage right now. I’m waiting till Father’s Day to open er’ up and get to gettin on some large batches. I’ll pop the cherry with a 30 gal. sugar wash so I can do a sac and strip in the 26 gal. plated column. I’ll keep y’all posted.
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Re: conical vs flat bottom fermenters

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Stonecutter wrote: Wed Jun 15, 2022 8:14 am
I’ve got a Spike CF30 sitting in my garage right now.
CF30!! Damn, Stonecutter! Nice size! It beats the hell outta my 13gal conical. I concur, the shape shouldn't affect ferment performance at all but used as a secondary, mine nicely collects and compresses the custard from squeezed corn ferments, is easy to clean/sanitize, and because its stainless, won't scratch like plastic does.

Can't wait to hear how it works. Hats off to your wife for approving of your acquisition. :D
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Re: conical vs flat bottom fermenters

Post by The Baker »

Conical is not so simple to find a base for.

Edit;
I really meant curved/ rounded base here, not conical.


I used old commercial fridge walling.
Cut to size and redid the sides.
Cut a circle where the conical fermenter base sits, scraped away the foam to match the base of the fermenter,
fitted old carpet over the hole.
Sits completely steady.

Geoff
Last edited by The Baker on Thu Jun 16, 2022 7:42 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: conical vs flat bottom fermenters

Post by Stonecutter »

Twisted Brick wrote: Wed Jun 15, 2022 10:45 am
Stonecutter wrote: Wed Jun 15, 2022 8:14 am
I’ve got a Spike CF30 sitting in my garage right now.
CF30!! Damn, Stonecutter! Nice size! It beats the hell outta my 13gal conical. I concur, the shape shouldn't affect ferment performance at all but used as a secondary, mine nicely collects and compresses the custard from squeezed corn ferments, is easy to clean/sanitize, and because its stainless, won't scratch like plastic does.

Can't wait to hear how it works. Hats off to your wife for approving of your acquisition. :D
Thanks TB! There’s a reason why Mother’s Day comes first :twisted: I knew what I wanted for Father’s Day and I knew I’d have to make sure SWMBO was taken care of first but I still find myself wondering how she puts up with it all :crazy:

I’m itching to unbox the thing and hear the Angels singing from on high. Haha. I’ve thought about what I’d need to do to rack a full charge and I’d have to empty it out into separate carboys and then dump it all back in, not too terribly bad but extra dishes. I’m into whiskeys and Brandy’s so the conical should really shine in those departments. I can fully charge my flute and strip in pot still mode with one conical charge and then take that stripping run and charge my 8 gallon boiler to do a spirit run with that beautiful badass shotty you hooked up. Alas, I digress. Sorry to the moderator and OP for wandering off subject.
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Re: conical vs flat bottom fermenters

Post by shadylane »

Stonecutter wrote: Wed Jun 15, 2022 4:23 am
What spurred you to get rid of the SS conical?
The conical was definitely easier to clean.
But my flat bottom fermenter has a water jacket so it can be cooled if needed.
The flat bottom is shorter, fatter and easier to load. It can also do double duty as masher and stripper.
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Re: conical vs flat bottom fermenters

Post by Stonecutter »

I hear that Shady. I am definitely committed to a one trick pony of sorts. Obviously that conical is made for one thing really, fermenting and bottling beer. I plan on using it for rum, sugar wash and dry white wine until I either pick up that rotten keg from my friends backyard or buy a shiny new expensive mash tun.
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Re: conical vs flat bottom fermenters

Post by shadylane »

I sure wouldn't call a conical fermenter a one trick pony.
Think of it as another tool to be used as needed. :lol:
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Re: conical vs flat bottom fermenters

Post by Johnny_Mac »

dmw_chef wrote: Wed Jun 15, 2022 4:53 am Conicals are a complete waste of money for anyone on the homebrew scale. Full stop.

At least a dozen times I've fermented the exact same must, in almost identical volumes, side by side in both stainless bucket and a stainless conical and they had identical fermentation kinetics.

Conicals are easier to clean, especially if it is a size of fermenter that you can't easily lift. They are great for harvesting yeast.

Any differences in fermentation kinetics you see will only really apply to commercial scale brewing.
When I switched from buckets to a conical while brewing beer, it was a game changer. I absolutely prefer the ease of cleaning, ability to dump trub and not have to rack to a secondary not to mention being able to bottle right out of the conical without worrying about what's settled getting into the bottle. Was not a waste of money in my opinion. Full stop.
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Re: conical vs flat bottom fermenters

Post by VLAGAVULVIN »

Johnny_Mac wrote: Thu Jun 16, 2022 1:18 am ability to dump trub and not have to rack to a secondary not to mention being able to bottle right out of the conical
Hell yeah. By the way, how do you dump your trub: by full opening the valve or by letting it slowly drain thru a small gap?

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Re: conical vs flat bottom fermenters

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VLAGAVULVIN wrote: Thu Jun 16, 2022 2:49 am

Hell yeah. By the way, how do you dump your trub: by full opening the valve or by letting it slowly drain thru a small gap?
I’ve always wondered same thing Vlag .Trub seems to stick to the bottom of my fermenters , I can’t imagine how it smoothly exits a conical via the bottom .
Not doubting for a minute , just curious as I don’t have one .
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Re: conical vs flat bottom fermenters

Post by VLAGAVULVIN »

Yummyrum wrote: Thu Jun 16, 2022 3:29 am I’ve always wondered same thing Vlag .Trub seems to stick to the bottom of my fermenters , I can’t imagine how it smoothly exits a conical via the bottom .
Not doubting for a minute , just curious as I don’t have one .
So you can easily lose a couple of pints. Still not being sure if all the trub is over or not. If I open it on full swing I do it for a second only. Then wait for half an hour. Then re-open. And so forth ;)

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Re: conical vs flat bottom fermenters

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VLAGAVULVIN wrote: Thu Jun 16, 2022 3:34 am
Yummyrum wrote: Thu Jun 16, 2022 3:29 am I’ve always wondered same thing Vlag .Trub seems to stick to the bottom of my fermenters , I can’t imagine how it smoothly exits a conical via the bottom .
Not doubting for a minute , just curious as I don’t have one .
So you can easily lose a couple of pints. Still not being sure if all the trub is over or not. If I open it on full swing I do it for a second only. Then wait for half an hour. Then re-open. And so forth ;)
So you are basically doing a dump , a quick purge to sluice out the trub , then let remnants settle and have another dump .

This makes sense . I always imagined a slow opening and draining of trub ,( much like one would drain a laboratory separating funnel) , but with heaps still clinging to fermenter walls , it sounded sub-par .

I like your method .
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Re: conical vs flat bottom fermenters

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Yummyrum wrote: Thu Jun 16, 2022 3:48 am
VLAGAVULVIN wrote: Thu Jun 16, 2022 3:34 am
Yummyrum wrote: Thu Jun 16, 2022 3:29 am I’ve always wondered same thing Vlag .Trub seems to stick to the bottom of my fermenters , I can’t imagine how it smoothly exits a conical via the bottom .
Not doubting for a minute , just curious as I don’t have one .
So you can easily lose a couple of pints. Still not being sure if all the trub is over or not. If I open it on full swing I do it for a second only. Then wait for half an hour. Then re-open. And so forth ;)
So you are basically doing a dump , a quick purge to sluice out the trub , then let remnants settle and have another dump .

This makes sense . I always imagined a slow opening and draining of trub ,( much like one would drain a laboratory separating funnel) , but with heaps still clinging to fermenter walls , it sounded sub-par .

I like your method .
I was actually also pondering this same thing last night. My concern was that dumping while the fermenter was full would stir up the contents.
Is this why you wait the half hour in between your dumps Vlag?
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Re: conical vs flat bottom fermenters

Post by Ben »

I prefer the conical. Lets me harvest yeast or pull beer from above the yeast cake, dump trub in the case of high hop beers. I get to pull samples without worry of infection.

Mine has a lid with an immersion coil, I just run a bucket of water in the kegorator, pump on an inkbird controller, and can keep temps as required. Hook the pump straight to the drain port to make moving distillers beer a low labor effort.

No need to worry about stirring up the beer, the trub is thick, it doesn't move fast, even with a 1" ball valve it is easy to control. If you have a sight glass above your dump valve its even easier. Most conicals are set up to handle a few psi, so if you are really worried about O2 entry just plug in your CO2 source and give it a little pressure. You can use the same CO2 to push into a keg, pre pressurize the keg, fill through the draw tube, let the beer flow by releasing pressure, no oxidization.

And the cleaning is a snap...
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Re: conical vs flat bottom fermenters

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This is where I get confused . I thought the drain was at the bottom of the cone .

Do some have a drain as well above the trub level ?

Keen to see some pics
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Re: conical vs flat bottom fermenters

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VLAGAVULVIN wrote: Thu Jun 16, 2022 2:49 am
Johnny_Mac wrote: Thu Jun 16, 2022 1:18 am ability to dump trub and not have to rack to a secondary not to mention being able to bottle right out of the conical
Hell yeah. By the way, how do you dump your trub: by full opening the valve or by letting it slowly drain thru a small gap?
As others noted, I open it up full and usually it takes a couple seconds for it get moving, and once it starts I start closing the valve until it is running thin. Then let it sit a bit and do it again.

**Edit to add** You just have to make sure to remember to pull the air lock out or it'll suck the water in it down inside...
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Re: conical vs flat bottom fermenters

Post by Stonecutter »

Yummyrum wrote: Thu Jun 16, 2022 5:28 am This is where I get confused . I thought the drain was at the bottom of the cone .

Do some have a drain as well above the trub level ?

Keen to see some pics
Yes yummy there is a dump port, a sampling port and a racking port.
93F2E908-E3B0-46A8-A9D7-CCE4B0934054.png
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Re: conical vs flat bottom fermenters

Post by dmw_chef »

Johnny_Mac wrote: Thu Jun 16, 2022 1:18 am When I switched from buckets to a conical while brewing beer, it was a game changer. I absolutely prefer the ease of cleaning, ability to dump trub and not have to rack to a secondary not to mention being able to bottle right out of the conical without worrying about what's settled getting into the bottle. Was not a waste of money in my opinion. Full stop.
Cleanup is the one actual benefit. The other is being able to play 'Pro Brewer' a little easier. Which is fine, I'm not saying that's bad, if that's part of your fun in the hobby more power to you.

Dumping trub is only useful when you are harvesting yeast, and even then it only saves you some time washing the yeast. Flat bottom fermenters can have rotating racking arms too, every single one of mine does, even the plastic ones. You don't have to rack for secondary from any fermenter outside of few corner cases; fears of off flavors from autolysis and the like are hugely overblown in the homebrew community, it is a problem on commercial scale. You can bottle out of any fermenter.
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Re: conical vs flat bottom fermenters

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dmw_chef wrote: Thu Jun 16, 2022 9:34 am
Johnny_Mac wrote: Thu Jun 16, 2022 1:18 am When I switched from buckets to a conical while brewing beer, it was a game changer. I absolutely prefer the ease of cleaning, ability to dump trub and not have to rack to a secondary not to mention being able to bottle right out of the conical without worrying about what's settled getting into the bottle. Was not a waste of money in my opinion. Full stop.
Cleanup is the one actual benefit. The other is being able to play 'Pro Brewer' a little easier. Which is fine, I'm not saying that's bad, if that's part of your fun in the hobby more power to you.

Dumping trub is only useful when you are harvesting yeast, and even then it only saves you some time washing the yeast. Flat bottom fermenters can have rotating racking arms too, every single one of mine does, even the plastic ones. You don't have to rack for secondary from any fermenter outside of few corner cases; fears of off flavors from autolysis and the like are hugely overblown in the homebrew community, it is a problem on commercial scale. You can bottle out of any fermenter.
Gotcha, and yes, just a hobby. It's how I get into my Zen. 😁 I'm sure there are much better buckets than what I was using, but I was never able to bottle using the ones I had without racking to a secondary and allowing some time for settling. If I went straight out of my initial fermentation bucket, I couldn't add priming sugar without stirring everything up off the bottom. The alternatives, I suppose, are kegging and carbonating with CO2, (tried that and takes up too much space) or adding sugar to each individual bottle and that just sounds like a PITA. The conical just makes everything go a little smoother so it was a good investment (for me). I've been homebrewing for 30ish years, but sounds like you are quite a bit more mad scientist than I so appreciate your input.
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Re: conical vs flat bottom fermenters

Post by VLAGAVULVIN »

Stonecutter wrote: Thu Jun 16, 2022 4:34 am My concern was that dumping while the fermenter was full would stir up the contents.
Is this why you wait the half hour in between your dumps Vlag?
Regardless of whether I open the valve completely or just for a slow crawling out the trub thru the thin gap, the remains of sludge slide down the inclined walls much more slowly than the liquid phase flies out.
IMG_4713.jpg
The solution is to give the sly crouching crap a bit more time to overcome the forces of friction. The gravity rules, but not immediately.
Johnny_Mac wrote: Thu Jun 16, 2022 6:10 am You just have to make sure to remember to pull the air lock out or it'll suck the water in it down inside...
Or it is important not to forget to slightly open the lid of the fermenter, of course ;)

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Re: conical vs flat bottom fermenters

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VLAGAVULVIN wrote: Thu Jun 16, 2022 9:25 pm
Johnny_Mac wrote: Thu Jun 16, 2022 6:10 am You just have to make sure to remember to pull the air lock out or it'll suck the water in it down inside...
Or it is important not to forget to slightly open the lid of the fermenter, of course ;)
Or just use distillate in your air lock :D
:)
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Re: conical vs flat bottom fermenters

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Ben wrote: Fri Jun 17, 2022 5:04 am
VLAGAVULVIN wrote: Thu Jun 16, 2022 9:25 pm
Johnny_Mac wrote: Thu Jun 16, 2022 6:10 am You just have to make sure to remember to pull the air lock out or it'll suck the water in it down inside...
Or it is important not to forget to slightly open the lid of the fermenter, of course ;)
Or just use distillate in your air lock :D
Both very good options! Nowadays I generally have the air lock in and then run a hose down to a half full beer bottle or something of the sort.
05E5B614-6E0A-41ED-AFE2-50C6435E2BCD.jpeg
**Edit to add** Not sure why the pic shows up sideways....
Mod edit : Fixed for you Johnny
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Re: conical vs flat bottom fermenters

Post by VLAGAVULVIN »

Johnny_Mac wrote: Fri Jun 17, 2022 5:32 am Both very good options!
Yupp... my airlock is always full of heads gotten from my boka. Proofed down to 40% AbV.

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Re: conical vs flat bottom fermenters

Post by dmw_chef »

Johnny_Mac wrote: Thu Jun 16, 2022 7:52 pm I'm sure there are much better buckets than what I was using
yeah.

Good flat bottom fermenters aren't cheap, but they're a lot cheaper than equivalent conicals.
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Re: conical vs flat bottom fermenters

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VLAGAVULVIN wrote: Fri Jun 17, 2022 9:59 am
Yupp... my airlock is always full of heads gotten from my boka. Proofed down to 40% AbV.
This will be what I do from now on. Thanks for the tip.
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Re: conical vs flat bottom fermenters

Post by VLAGAVULVIN »

Johnny_Mac wrote: Fri Jun 17, 2022 9:57 pm
VLAGAVULVIN wrote: Fri Jun 17, 2022 9:59 am
Yupp... my airlock is always full of heads gotten from my boka. Proofed down to 40% AbV.
This will be what I do from now on. Thanks for the tip.
Indeed, no need to waste good spirits for all those air locks ;)

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Re: conical vs flat bottom fermenters

Post by shadylane »

Bubba has a neat trick for draining the trub from his conical fermenter.
He screws a short piece of capped off tubing into the drain valve.
Turns the valve on and leaves it on while fermenting.
When the yeast starts settling, he will occasionally bump the fermenter, so the yeast slides down the side of the fermenter and into the tube. Then all he has to do is turn off the valve and remove the tube full of trub.
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Re: conical vs flat bottom fermenters

Post by BlueSasquatch »

Interesting thread. I started with glass carboys, quickly switched to up to 10 5-gallon buckets, and then migrated over to (2) 15 gallon or so, blue barrels. Im planning out a Fermentation Chamber build, and am planning to switch at the same time, to (3) stainless steel kegs, that I will mash directly in, ferment in and then dump all-grain into my thumper for steam distilling.

Wouldn't mind doing beer from time to time and for that the Catalyst Fermentation caught my eye, seems quite slick, but overkill and too small for spirits.

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