How much water for proper gelatinization

Production methods from starch to sugars.

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Texas Jim
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How much water for proper gelatinization

Post by Texas Jim »

So, I know that total grain to water ratio should be 2-2.5# per gallon. But, what is the minimum amount of water per pound of grain (corn) that will provide for proper and complete gelatinization?

I like to use as little as possible, so I can add cold water to get down to 148 and then down to fermenting temps.
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still_stirrin
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Re: How much water for proper gelatinization

Post by still_stirrin »

Typically when I mash, I start with 3/4 quarts per pound of grain. That will give a very thick mash.

When mashing corn, however, I suggest using 2 to 3 quarts per pound, simply because the ground corn will absorb a lot of the mash water, turning it into a thick slurry. Enzymes will help you manage the viscosity, but it'll still be soupy. The corn soup will hang on to a lot of the mash water.

FYI:
0.75 qt/lb = 5.3 lb/gallon <-- it will be a very thick mash.
1.00 qt/lb = 4.0 lb/gallon
2.00 qt/lb = 2.0 lb/gallon
3.00 qt/lb = 1.5 lb/gallon
4.00 qt/lb = 1.0 lb/gallon <-- see where this is going?

So, even with 2 to 2.5 lb/gallon of grain (a little light if you're using a high percentage of corn), you'll still mash with the water you intend to use. The difference is that you won't extract all of the water out of the mash into your fermenter anyway. The grains will retain some of it.

Thick mashes tend to aid development of fermentable sugars, but the process takes longer. Thin mashes mash quicker, but develop more non-fermentable sugars.

But, I always lauter my mashes...I don't ferment "on the grain". Others here do, so my guidelines may not apply to their processes.
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Re: How much water for proper gelatinization

Post by greggn »

> what is the minimum amount of water per pound of grain (corn)


I start with 2 lb/gl but there will be a lot a variation depending on how fine or coarse you mill.
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Re: How much water for proper gelatinization

Post by Texas Jim »

still_stirrin wrote:Typically when I mash. ....
Thanks SS. I use liquid enzymes and mash in an ice chest. It will usually stay at mashing temps for a few hours at least. Last batch I used 12 gallons for 50# of cracked corn. I noticed that by the end of the mashing, the corn had swelled and absorbed most of the water.

As long as the corn stays wet, there is enough water - correct?

I ferment on the grain because I’d rather deal with a beer than sugar water. I squeeze in a wine press to get as much liquid as I can.

Thanks again.
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Re: How much water for proper gelatinization

Post by HDNB »

i gel (dough in) at 250grams/600mL of water. after mash in i dilute with another 400mL

in the fermenter when all settles the grain bed makes up about 40%, cleared beer about 60% of the volume
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Re: How much water for proper gelatinization

Post by 6 Row Joe »

still_stirrin wrote:Typically when I mash, I start with 3/4 quarts per pound of grain. That will give a very thick mash.

When mashing corn, however, I suggest using 2 to 3 quarts per pound, simply because the ground corn will absorb a lot of the mash water, turning it into a thick slurry. Enzymes will help you manage the viscosity, but it'll still be soupy. The corn soup will hang on to a lot of the mash water.

FYI:
0.75 qt/lb = 5.3 lb/gallon <-- it will be a very thick mash.
1.00 qt/lb = 4.0 lb/gallon
2.00 qt/lb = 2.0 lb/gallon
3.00 qt/lb = 1.5 lb/gallon
4.00 qt/lb = 1.0 lb/gallon <-- see where this is going?

So, even with 2 to 2.5 lb/gallon of grain (a little light if you're using a high percentage of corn), you'll still mash with the water you intend to use. The difference is that you won't extract all of the water out of the mash into your fermenter anyway. The grains will retain some of it.

Thick mashes tend to aid development of fermentable sugars, but the process takes longer. Thin mashes mash quicker, but develop more non-fermentable sugars.

But, I always lauter my mashes...I don't ferment "on the grain". Others here do, so my guidelines may not apply to their processes.
ss
Oh boy, rye turns into a thick sticky mash as well. I mixed a George Washington a couple days ago. I reduced a big recipe down to a 3 gallon batch. I rounded the pounds up and had way too much rye. I ended up with a 5 gallon pail of swelled grain. After conversion I ended up with 2 gallons of usable. I think I will tone down the amounts and run another batch. I have found in this hobby that making adjustments and fine tuning your procedures makes the difference.
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Re: How much water for proper gelatinization

Post by still_stirrin »

Texas Jim wrote:... I used 12 gallons for 50# of cracked corn.
That’s slightly more than 4 lb per gallon. So, that is a very stiff mash. 50 lb/12 gallons = 0.96 qt/lb. See my table above to see where this fits in. But as I said, thick mashes will take longer to convert the starches to sugars. So, you’ll need to hold the mash temps for a longer time.

I think that this is too thick, especially for gelatinizing corn. As I said already, it would be best with up to 3 qt/lb.
Texas Jim wrote:...As long as the corn stays wet, there is enough water - correct?
Well, don’t forget that up to 1/2 quart per pound of the sweet wort may remain in the grains. So, you may not get enough liquid from the grains in the end. So your effort to increase the fermentable material may result in less product in the boiler, and ultimately less product from the spout.
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Re: How much water for proper gelatinization

Post by Texas Jim »

HDNB wrote:i gel (dough in) at 250grams/600mL of water. after mash in i dilute with another 400mL

in the fermenter when all settles the grain bed makes up about 40%, cleared beer about 60% of the volume
“Dough in” - that’s the term I should’ve been using from the start.

And “ml” and “grams”? That a whole lot of metric right there. I’m going to have to pull out the calculator! lol
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Re: How much water for proper gelatinization

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Texas Jim wrote:
HDNB wrote:i gel (dough in) at 250grams/600mL of water. after mash in i dilute with another 400mL

in the fermenter when all settles the grain bed makes up about 40%, cleared beer about 60% of the volume
“Dough in” - that’s the term I should’ve been using from the start.

And “ml” and “grams”? That a whole lot of metric right there. I’m going to have to pull out the calculator! lol
If you have an iPad I use an app called Units Plus for converting units.
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Re: How much water for proper gelatinization

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Texas Jim
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How much water for proper gelatinization

Post by Texas Jim »

still_stirrin wrote:
Texas Jim wrote:... I used 12 gallons for 50# of cracked corn.
That’s slightly more than 4 lb per gallon. So, that is a very stiff mash. 50 lb/12 gallons = 0.96 qt/lb. See my table above to see where this fits in. But as I said, thick mashes will take longer to convert the starches to sugars. So, you’ll need to hold the mash temps for a longer time.

I think that this is too thick, especially for gelatinizing corn. As I said already, it would be best with up to 3 qt/lb.
What’s wrong with my math? I do 50# of corn at a time. 3 qt per pound is 150 qt for 50# of corn. 150 qts is 37.5 gallons. That gives a ratio of 1.33# of corn per gallon of water. That’s about half of the recommended ration of 2-2.5# per gallon.
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Re: How much water for proper gelatinization

Post by cayars »

That's not what you said that still_stirrin quoted. It said 50 pounds in 12 gallons which is over 4 pounds per gallon. 12 gallons would be 48 quarts not 150.

There is a 3 times major difference in fluid being mentioned.
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Re: How much water for proper gelatinization

Post by WithOrWithoutU2 »

Texas Jim wrote: Sat Feb 09, 2019 5:55 am
HDNB wrote:i gel (dough in) at 250grams/600mL of water. after mash in i dilute with another 400mL

in the fermenter when all settles the grain bed makes up about 40%, cleared beer about 60% of the volume
“Dough in” - that’s the term I should’ve been using from the start.

And “ml” and “grams”? That a whole lot of metric right there. I’m going to have to pull out the calculator! lol
250 grams is about+ 1/2 lb. 600ml is about 0.16 gallon. So HDNB's formula comes out to ABOUT 3lbs of grain per gallon of water.
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