Rye whiskey mash question

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Rye whiskey mash question

Post by MtRainier »

I'm going to try to do a whiskey with the Heaven Hill rye mash bill: 51% unmalted rye, 39% corn, 10% malted barley.

My plan is to come up to a boil with the corn in to cook it for a while with high temp alpha enzyme, then cool to 150F or so to add the barley and rye with the gluco enzyme and let that work a while. Does that sound right or should I add the rye at a higher temp to let the high temp alpha get to work on it with the corn like maybe at the end of the corn cook? It seems like it wouldn't need to cook as much as the corn. My concern is that the high temp enzyme won't get a crack at the rye in its prime operating temp.

I'll be fermenting and distilling on the grain, so I don't care about the sparge ability. I'm a bit worried about the potential of puking from a foamy boil when running it, but I'll cross that bridge when I get there.
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Re: Rye whiskey mash question

Post by still_stirrin »

Rye is very high in beta glucans. And those are reduced at lower temperatures, not higher. I’d would mash the rye separately with a temperature rest at 115*-120*F and hold that for 30-45 minutes. Then raise it to saccarification temperature and add the barley malt and the (now cooled) corn slurry. But yes, I would gelatinize the corn separately and then combine with the rest of the grist at saccarification.

Beta glucans are VERY sticky. The viscosity is high and the “gluey-ness” is overwhelming. You’ll want to minimize that especially with the high percentage of rye you’re aiming for.

Also, that much rye will make the distiller’s beer quite “spicey”. But you’ll definitely taste it’s character in the whiskey.
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Re: Rye whiskey mash question

Post by MtRainier »

Thanks SS. Those are good tips.

So I'll start raising the water temp in the boiler and when it gets to around 125 I'll pull some off to add to all the rye to give it a beta glucan rest in a separate brute trash can. I'll continue raising the water temp up to 190 or so and add the corn and high temp enzymes and will cook them for a while. Then I'll add in the rye slurry from the brute, drop the temp to gluco tempreatures with an immersion chiller, add the malted barley and the gluco enzyme and wait a while.
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Re: Rye whiskey mash question

Post by still_stirrin »

MtRainier wrote:... Then I'll add in the rye slurry from the brute, drop the temp to gluco tempreatures with an immersion chiller, add the malted barley and the gluco enzyme and wait a while.
That’s not the way I would do it.

I mash “bottom up” raising the temperatures to my target saccarification step. Adding the rye mash to the corn mash will drop the temperature of the combined mash. But, it will also denature active enzymes in the rye mash as you exceed the saccarification temperature. Now, you’ve planned to add back liquid enzymes to the full mash once the barley malt is added, but you’ve also shut down a lot of the activity in the process.

I don’t advocate your way. Instead, I would add the corn mash to the rye mash until you hit 150*F, then hold the temperature there as you add the barley malt. And if you have more corn mash to add, do it after the barley has stabilized the temperature in your mash tun. But keep the mash at 145*-150*F throughout the saccarification duration. It will net you better and quicker conversion. And hopefully reduce the rye’s viscosity.
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Re: Rye whiskey mash question

Post by MtRainier »

Ok. I should mention it’s not rye malt. It’s ground rye grain, so it won’t have any enzymes on its own.
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Re: Rye whiskey mash question

Post by MtRainier »

I was also thinking about buying some sebflo from enzymash before tackling it since rye has a reputation for being a pill.

The folks here say rye whiskey is made from distillers tears:

http://adiforums.com/topic/10822-vexed- ... ion-issues" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
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Re: Rye whiskey mash question

Post by still_stirrin »

MtRainier wrote:Ok. I should mention it’s not rye malt. It’s ground rye grain, so it won’t have any enzymes on its own.
So, the grain still has natural enzymes in it. It doesn’t have to be malted to develop the enzymes. Malting helps make the starches easier to convert, but the enzymes are inherent in the grains. And temperature promotes the specific enzymes which will help break down the glucans.

Sure, malted rye is (a little) easier to work with. But it will still tend to turn to “glue”. This is especially frustrating if you lauter the grist, as I do. But glucans will make a “ferment on the grain” just as sticky, and the glucans can be reduced to carbohydrates that can be converted to fermentables ultimately.
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Re: Rye whiskey mash question

Post by MtRainier »

Ok. Good to know. I’ll mash the rye from the bottom up and rest a while at the betaglucan temp.
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Re: Rye whiskey mash question

Post by HDNB »

rye has a grasier flavour than malt rye. malt rye is a smoother, nicer finished product IMHO. But grain is quite nice too...just grassier and will respond to more time on oak with a bigger flavour. both will want age, grain will want more age.

try this:
heat the corn from cold to 190, cool and hold 185* for 90 minutes with HTL
add rye to cold water and heat to 115* hold for 30 minutes.
(if you think about this for a while you can do this at the same time)

add the 115* to the 185* and then cool it all to 150* over about an hour and add acid to hit ph 5.3 Then add the barley and SEB GL hold 149* for 90 minutes or clear starch test
make a yeast starter from the wort cooled to 105*
cool to 105* as fast as you can after the clear test or the 90 minutes and add the yeast starter, stir it in. sprinkle a wee bit of dry yeast over the top, throw a loose lid on it. leave it overnight and then next morning wrap the buckets in a towel or something or heat at 85-90* until it's done.
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Re: Rye whiskey mash question

Post by MtRainier »

OK. I have to think about the containers I'll be using to do this and how much water should go in each part of the mash.

I'll end up with about 17 gallons of water total, 17.5 pounds of rye, 13 pounds of corn, 3.5 pounds malted barley.
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Re: Rye whiskey mash question

Post by HDNB »

i'm not smart enuf to figger the strike temps and such so i think i'd use 7.5 gallons on the rye and corn each and hold 2 gallons for cooling to mash temps the first time i tried this and write down the temperatures when you mix the two grains...then adjust as required for the next go so the temperatures fall into where you want them.

i'd aim for 160-165 when the two are mixed and leave the temp there for an hour to gel the rye starch. then add the cooling water to help get to mash temp.
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Re: Rye whiskey mash question

Post by MtRainier »

It takes me two ferments to fill a barrel with a little left over to drink white, so maybe I should do one with all the corn (with half the barley) and one all the rye (with the other barley half) and blend the spirit runs going in to the barrel.

That will give me some white of both all corn and all rye plus some blend. In the process it would simplify the mashes.
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Re: Rye whiskey mash question

Post by MtRainier »

HDNB wrote:rye has a grasier flavour than malt rye. malt rye is a smoother, nicer finished product IMHO. But grain is quite nice too...just grassier and will respond to more time on oak with a bigger flavour. both will want age, grain will want more age.
You are so right about grassier. I am now trying 100 percent rye. I had both grain and malt. Big difference in aroma. I only had 5 pounds of malt so I’m doing 30 pounds of rye grain and 5 pounds of rye malt with high temp alpha enzyme, glucose enzyme, and sebflo TL for the betaglucans.

I will stick to rye malt in the future I think.
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Re: Rye whiskey mash question

Post by Bushman »

I use 100% rye malt will be interested in your results.
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Re: Rye whiskey mash question

Post by Twisted Brick »

MtRainier wrote: I only had 5 pounds of malt so I’m doing 30 pounds of rye grain and 5 pounds of rye malt with high temp alpha enzyme, glucose enzyme, and sebflo TL for the betaglucans.
I just picked up 100lbs of organic rye berries, 10lbs of which I have successfully test-malted and kilned. Gotta wait 4-6wks before mashing, but ultimately plan on following in your footsteps with either a high-rye bourbon or 100% single-malt rye. Will be keenly watching for your results.
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Re: Rye whiskey mash question

Post by MtRainier »

It is bubbling this morning. Instead of the grain cap I’m used to seeing with corn and barley this has kind of a layer of goop on the top.

I used sebflo tl from pinto’s site on the way up in temp and also on the way down and also added some fermcap to try to stop foaming.

Added 30 pounds of fine ground rye grain plus 15ml of sebflo and 20ml of high temp alpha amylase to 12 gallons of cold water
Adjusted pH to 5.0 with citric acid
Heated to 130F and held for one hour for glucan rest
Heated to 185F and held for one hour for alpha rest
Cooled to 130F
Added 5 pounds rye malt, 15ml sebflo and 15ml gluco amylase
Allowed to sit for about 3 hours while I did something else. It cooled to 125F
Cooled to 85F and pitched 20g of hydrated yeast
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Re: Rye whiskey mash question

Post by MtRainier »

Forgot that on the cool down before adding the gluco and malt I added 6 more gallons of cold water, heh. Otherwise it’s a pretty thick mash.
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Re: Rye whiskey mash question

Post by MtRainier »

I'm stripping it now. It is foamier than a corn heavy mash, but no puke yet. (famous last words)

The ferment had finished visible bubbles by Saturday morning, but I was going out of town, so I let it sit and cool to room temp over the weekend. Got back today and I'm running it.

After about a gallon of low wines I pulled a sample taste, and this is the best tasting drop that has come out white so far. I don't know if it's the extra time I gave the yeast to finish or due to the 100% rye mash bill or what, but it sure is good. No harsh flavors. Lots of sweetness and good solid grain aftertaste. I'm really excited about how it's going.
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Re: Rye whiskey mash question

Post by MtRainier »

Forgot to update this. The spirit run came out great with about 1.8 gallons of spirit after cuts and dilution down to 125 proof for the barrel. I don't have the barrel yet, but am ordering this week. The rye batch is tastier than the corn batch, and I'm planning to combine them with a bit more rye than corn in the barrel and keep some back to age separately on oak sticks and some to drink separately white.

One thing I noticed is that the 100% rye kind of made a mess of the copper inside the column. It really turned black and required scrubbing with a bit of chore boy afterwards. I assume this means that the on-grain rye run would have more sulfur than a corn or barley mash I've done in the past. Have others noticed this about rye mashes?
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Re: Rye whiskey mash question

Post by Pipinchaz »

MtRainier wrote:It is bubbling this morning. Instead of the grain cap I’m used to seeing with corn and barley this has kind of a layer of goop on the top.

I used sebflo tl from pinto’s site on the way up in temp and also on the way down and also added some fermcap to try to stop foaming.

Added 30 pounds of fine ground rye grain plus 15ml of sebflo and 20ml of high temp alpha amylase to 12 gallons of cold water
Adjusted pH to 5.0 with citric acid
Heated to 130F and held for one hour for glucan rest
Heated to 185F and held for one hour for alpha rest
Cooled to 130F
Added 5 pounds rye malt, 15ml sebflo and 15ml gluco amylase
Allowed to sit for about 3 hours while I did something else. It cooled to 125F
Cooled to 85F and pitched 20g of hydrated yeast
MtRainier,
So was this your final grain bill and procedure for your rye? Would like to give it a try.
Thanks


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Re: Rye whiskey mash question

Post by MtRainier »

Yes, that was my final mash schedule. I had malt to add on the way down, but don’t think it’s necessary with the enzymes used. I just did it because I had it. In the future I will use all rye malt over grain because of the flavor.
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Re: Rye whiskey mash question

Post by DAD300 »

No mention of the dreaded RYE EXPLOSION after yeast added. About eight hours after adding yeast the stuff foams to an extra 30% volume.

I use a ferment vessel 50% larger than mash volume. Because I have had the stuff climb out of the tank several times. PIA with 170 gallons...

I suggest if you have a 10 gallon ferment, use a 15 gallon container.
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Re: Rye whiskey mash question

Post by MtRainier »

Yep. I didn't have an explosion. It fermented vigorously, but no boom. I was keeping an eye on it and sleeping lightly. 8)
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Re: Rye whiskey mash question

Post by Stob »

A different question please. If I were adding ground rye berries to a straight corn mash for some flavor, would the one dose of rye be enough for consecutive generations? Spent corn is skimmed off and replaced with new, is anything like that needed for the rye?
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Re: Rye whiskey mash question

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Stob wrote:A different question please. If I were adding ground rye berries to a straight corn mash for some flavor, would the one dose of rye be enough for consecutive generations? Spent corn is skimmed off and replaced with new, is anything like that needed for the rye?
You say you're asking about a straight corn mash, but then your question sounds like you're doing a grain-added sugar wash like UJSSM.

Which is it?

Not sure what the rye does over time in a UJSSM wash, for what it's worth.
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Re: Rye whiskey mash question

Post by Stob »

MtRainier wrote:
Stob wrote:A different question please. If I were adding ground rye berries to a straight corn mash for some flavor, would the one dose of rye be enough for consecutive generations? Spent corn is skimmed off and replaced with new, is anything like that needed for the rye?
You say you're asking about a straight corn mash, but then your question sounds like you're doing a grain-added sugar wash like UJSSM.

Which is it?

Not sure what the rye does over time in a UJSSM wash, for what it's worth.
I have been running the usual UJSSM. I thought I would add some rye for some flavor, to see if I liked it. I can add it once, but if I decide to continue with it, I was asking about adding more rye, or is it necessary.
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Re: Rye whiskey mash question

Post by MtRainier »

I guess I'd use rye malt instead of rye grain maybe? Rye malt tastes good. Rye grain tastes grassy. Seems like both will be subtle.
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Re: Rye whiskey mash question

Post by OtisT »

MtRainier,
How is your 100% rye coming along? Is it still in the barrel, and if not when did you pull it and how did it turn out? Or did you drink it all white?

I’m getting ready to start my first 100% rye and really appreciate this thread. Can’t wait to start. I’m leaning towards using 100% unmalted with enzymes.

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Re: Rye whiskey mash question

Post by MtRainier »

It turned out ok. I had it in a once used 3 gallon Gibbs Bros barrel that had HBB in it for 4 months for the first run through. I left it in that barrel for a year with one extra stick of charred white oak that I stuck in there through the bung hole and then pulled it out when it started tasting too woody to me and put it in a glass carboy where every month or two I open it and give it a good shake to try to keep some oxidation happening. I don't know if that's a good protocol or not, but that's what I kind of came up with. The HBB from the first fill was good tasting right after 4 months. Not as complex as a fancy bourbon, but better than the little semi-local distillery that sells at the farmers market.

The rye is definitely whiskey. It doesn't have the spice and citrus and other complex flavors that a "real" well-aged rye has. It also is a bit thin somehow. Maybe some of the body in a whiskey comes from time spent in the barrel breaking down wood components in addition to the typical caramel and vanilla flavors that we associate with oak? The compromises we have to make to simulate aging whiskey on small scale don't seem to end up with product that is better than the bottom shelf at the local store. At least in my experience. Still fun to try, though.

On the other hand, I put a 3rd generation dunder rum into another used barrel at the same time and it just keeps getting better. I'll leave that one in there if it keeps tasting good. I pull a little out from time to time to enjoy.
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Re: Rye whiskey mash question

Post by Twisted Brick »

OtisT wrote: Fri Sep 17, 2021 7:12 am
I’m getting ready to start my first 100% rye and really appreciate this thread. Can’t wait to start. I’m leaning towards using 100% unmalted with enzymes.
Otis,

Here's a look at how some distilleries treat their raw rye that might be helpful. On another thread a distiller reported he actually preferred the taste of raw rye over malted.

https://adiforums.com/topic/6179-rye-whiskey-mash-help/

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